Mafia Discussion: I love my flamethrower

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Mafia Discussion: I love my flamethrower

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

wins32767 posted:

In Defense of Dickishness in an Internet Party Game

As someone who is naturally conflict adverse by nature and nurture and who is prone to taking things very personally, I can't speak strongly enough of how valuable my time with a bunch of dicks and assholes has been in my life.

I don't like arguments that amount to "more trauma is what you need to do to help your PTSD."

Which, I mean, I'm not a psychologist but my impression is that exposure therapy does help single event PTSD, but harms people with complex PTSD.

In other words, glad it helped you, legitimately, but how does the value of that for you balance against how untenable it is for others?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:23

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# ? May 20, 2024 10:09

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

Can't believe we're comparing Mafia to PTSD, jesus christ

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:27

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

Can't it still be a testbed for managing your own feelings, and engaging with disagreement, and learning to be persuasive, all while also limiting how dickish things get?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:28

Paranoid Dude: Jul 6, 2014

Sub Rosa posted:

I don't like arguments that amount to "more trauma is what you need to do to help your PTSD."

Which, I mean, I'm not a psychologist but my impression is that exposure therapy does help single event PTSD, but harms people with complex PTSD.

In other words, glad it helped you, legitimately, but how does the value of that for you balance against how untenable it is for others?

I don't think that the idea is that a silly internet game is useful to help work through very complicated trauma, but that he is saying that there is value in low-commitment manipulation to see how to identify and counteract those behaviors in real life. It's the same thing as "roleplaying games helped me learn to talk to people," basically.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:28

CapitalistPig: Nov 3, 2005; A Winner is you!

chaoslord posted:

I think the thing to bring this community together is ~~a rousing game of PopCon~~ Goonfights 3. Ready to defend my tag team crown as one half of DUI Checkpoint

I agree but dang is that a lot of work I can't commit to right now.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:33

ObamaAkbar.: Apr 7, 2009; DesiredPopulationMin = 3
DesiredPopulationMax = 19
AverageDeathsPerDay = 6
WeaponsUsed = 13

Soldiers game when?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:34

t a s t e: Sep 6, 2010

Fill this game please

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4027694

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:36

wins32767: Mar 16, 2007

Sub Rosa posted:

In other words, glad it helped you, legitimately, but how does the value of that for you balance against how untenable it is for others?

That's the core issue here, I think. There appears to be a difficult to resolve tension between the value of being fully inclusive to those with complex trauma and helping people who are a bit closer to the mean in terms of response to aggression become more resilient when encountering relatively common challenges in life. Both things are important and valuable and trying to navigate between the two is going to be hard, but I think it starts with getting everyone on the same page that there are two valuable things in tension.

Sub Rosa posted:

Can't it still be a testbed for managing your own feelings, and engaging with disagreement, and learning to be persuasive, all while also limiting how dickish things get?

Yes, of course, but the question is where to put that line. You could imagine that line being at "driving to someone's house to yell at them about an internet mafia game is a-ok but don't hit them" or "never say anything mean to anyone" or a range of values in between. The closer it gets to dealing with angry people in person, the more helpful it is as a test bed for real life situations and the more traumatic it can be for some people. I thought the previous norm of "it's ok to be a dick on SA, but it doesn't leave SA" was a reasonably good equilibrium for maximizing the total amount of value gained, but that definitely comes at the cost of excluding some people.

And your values may be (and probably are) different about where to put that line! And I think that's the core of the disagreement.

wins32767 fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Mar 24, 2023

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:36

Shellception: Oct 12, 2016; "I'm made up of the memories of my parents and my grandparents, all my ancestors. They're in the way I look, in the colour of my hair. And I'm made up of everyone I've ever met who's changed the way I think"

Dumb reflection, I get the arguments about tone and how Mafia poo poo used to be meaner and a good part of the community doesn't want that poo poo back, but also, as a someone who started in 2021 - all of the games I've played I was with "old" mafia players - Hal, Opop, Grandi, Voodoo, Sand, Bif, Beet, wherever side you want to plop down b-minus1 in, Merk, CPig, and I'm forgetting a lot of ppl I am sure. They aren't new players.

And, wow, surprise - the tone change had already happened! And we, the ones who came later, learned from them, and kept it, but no magical divide ever existed between old and new, dammit.

It's as Sand and others said, a question of being dicks or not being dicks, and how much dickiness is acceptable. And that we need to figure out, but making it a "us vs them" issue is stupid. It's not.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:36

Jump King: Aug 10, 2011

wins32767 posted:

I was responding to this (and other similar comments).

That�s fair, I more or less agree that people being snippy in games is fine (although I did not read your post) as long as there�s a level of separation. It�s hard to talk about this stuff in abstract though because I think when I say it�s fine for games to be a bit rude/mean I�m maybe imagining a smaller scale than what other people might be.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:36

Mordiceius: Nov 10, 2007; If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!

Paranoid Dude posted:

I don't think that the idea is that a silly internet game is useful to help work through very complicated trauma, but that he is saying that there is value in low-commitment manipulation to see how to identify and counteract those behaviors in real life. It's the same thing as "roleplaying games helped me learn to talk to people," basically.

Yeah. I feel like there is a level of "ethical manipulation" to Mafia, if that makes sense. Your goal is to get others to believe what you believe or work to accomplish that goal. That is manipulation. Whether using facts or falsehoods, your goal is manipulate others toward a goal.

Manipulating and influencing are the same thing, depending on the direction you're looking from.

Mafia is a great place to learn how you handle that both in giving and receiving. Mafia is low stakes. None of our lives are going to be made significantly better or worse from a Mafia game. But there are skills you can pick up from engaging in social influencing situations that can be applied to real-life social engagements.

Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Mar 24, 2023

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:37

Jump King: Aug 10, 2011

Shellception posted:

Dumb reflection, I get the arguments about tone and how Mafia poo poo used to be meaner and a good part of the community doesn't want that poo poo back, but also, as a someone who started in 2021 - all of the games I've played I was with "old" mafia players - Hal, Opop, Grandi, Voodoo, Sand, Bif, Beet, wherever side you want to plop down b-minus1 in, Merk, CPig, and I'm forgetting a lot of ppl I am sure. They aren't new players.

And, wow, surprise - the tone change had already happened! And we, the ones who came later, learned from them, and kept it, but no magical divide ever existed between old and new, dammit.

It's as Sand and others said, a question of being dicks or not being dicks, and how much dickiness is acceptable. And that we need to figure out, but making it a "us vs them" issue is stupid. It's not.

This is partially why I think the culture clash is overhyped

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:39

Green Wing: Oct 28, 2013; It's the only word they know, but it's such a big word for a tiny creature

I used to play back in 2008-09 on a different account and honestly I think that it's more that SA culture has shifted as has been well-documented.

I think people are worried about losing a group and hobby they find fun and friendly but I also don't think that's a real possibility. I think we've just talked ourselves in knots. It's easy to worry about this kind of thing too much sometimes. SA culture isn't going to change back.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:42

wins32767: Mar 16, 2007

Jump King posted:

That�s fair, I more or less agree that people being snippy in games is fine (although I did not read your post) as long as there�s a level of separation. It�s hard to talk about this stuff in abstract though because I think when I say it�s fine for games to be a bit rude/mean I�m maybe imagining a smaller scale than what other people might be.

I mean, I used to try to get specific people to tilt when I was scum because it made them look scummier and easier to vote out. Is that in bounds? How about if I was town and thought they were scum? I like to think I was never verbally abusive, but I did push people's buttons deliberately.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:44

Green Wing: Oct 28, 2013; It's the only word they know, but it's such a big word for a tiny creature

Like I've been a bit perturbed by this thread recently but have decided that I'm just being anxious about people I don't recognise which, like, I just need to get over tbh I've only been here a few months and more blood is a good thing

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:44

Scientastic: Mar 1, 2010; TRULY scientastic.
🔬🍒

Isn�t the core of this that you can be combative and test the limits in a game (because it is a game) but if someone says you�ve crossed a line, you need to acknowledge that, apologise and try not to do so in future?

I don�t think anyone would disagree with that, surely?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:50

Sandwolf: Jan 23, 2007; i'll be harpo

Scientastic posted:

Isn�t the core of this that you can be combative and test the limits in a game (because it is a game) but if someone says you�ve crossed a line, you need to acknowledge that, apologise and try not to do so in future?

I don�t think anyone would disagree with that, surely?

Feels like an extremely good rule of thumb to me, imo

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:50

EccoRaven: Aug 15, 2004; there is only one hell:
the one we live in now

Green Wing posted:

Like I've been a bit perturbed by this thread recently but have decided that I'm just being anxious about people I don't recognise which, like, I just need to get over tbh I've only been here a few months and more blood is a good thing

Yeah, I think the culture clash thing is being overhyped because people are reaching for an explanation for what's happened that's more "real" than what it really is: tribalism.

There's two groups of people; each group knows its members very well and likes them quite a bit, but they don't know the other group at all. A member of one group makes a post about a member of another group that's perceived by the second group as being a slight, so they rally together to post back against the first group, which causes the first group to do the same.

This causes people from either group trying to make very reasonable points that are intentionally not trying to be an offense, being perceived that way anyway, because it's coming from the other group.

The best solution, the only real solution, is to get to know each other. But that requires everyone to trust that nobody actually wants to cause genuine offense or hurt, which is hard to do when people feel hurt by what's been said. But I know it's possible.

I think, going forward, everyone, "old" and "new", should be much more mindful of people's feelings in this conversation. Passion will be responded to with passion, which doesn't actually cool things down, definitionally.

For my own part in whatever caused this clash, whether inevitable or not, I apologize. I haven't participated much in it much, but I feel like I could have been able to at least temper things from my "tribe" more if I had.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 18:55

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Scientastic posted:

Isn�t the core of this that you can be combative and test the limits in a game (because it is a game) but if someone says you�ve crossed a line, you need to acknowledge that, apologise and try not to do so in future?

I don�t think anyone would disagree with that, surely?

I have yet to see anyone specifically disagree with this. Early on there were a few posts about how much needs to be said, like, verbosity; and things like a contact list or safety people or w/e have been floated as ideas and mostly knocked down as maybe not necessary, although that's certainly not set in stone. But basically yes everyone or almost everyone agrees in principle with this and that's great. It's a win. Everyone should take that win.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:15

death cob for cutie: Dec 30, 2006; dwarves won't delve no more
too much splatting down on Zot:4

Leperflesh posted:

oh you're a SAD IQ you'd be perfect, you do it, if you can handle the trashfires over there this'd be a piece of cake
I'm kidding

I do occasionally play board and card games and poo poo but I'm also not really active in any of those threads so I'd be a poor IK

if you want someone to read reports and go into threads and stuff, maybe, but I'm probably a total unknown to the TG community

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:18

Cloacamazing!: Apr 18, 2018; Too cute to be evil

Scientastic posted:

Isn�t the core of this that you can be combative and test the limits in a game (because it is a game) but if someone says you�ve crossed a line, you need to acknowledge that, apologise and try not to do so in future?

I don�t think anyone would disagree with that, surely?

I said that. This happened:

CCKeane posted:

I do think an important item that's relevant here and does give me some concern about a hardline stance on backing off, is that that the involved Riven/IMG team used language to shut down complaints by establishing that the complainers crossed a line, were out of line, gas lighters, abusers, etc. So I do have a concern there.

Jump King posted:

Agreed, the whole thing there was that you couldn�t say poo poo because that wasn�t nice and would cause conflict.

Personally I agree with snooze that it seems way less inviting when there are big posts about how people joining the thread are posting wrong. Like, is that me? Are you guys telling me to gently caress off? It sure feels like it, but I�d much prefer you just said it to me rather than post about how some posters need to gently caress off.

CCKeane posted:

Right, I think it's important to flag it though since we want a robust system/philosophy that can include handling something like that.

I do agree with this underlaying points for sure, and I think folks immediately getting aggressive and defensive, especially multiple people, was pretty bad.

So a thing that I've seen and that has happened to me that's more in line with the other day is a situation where somebody says something in a rude way, somebody responds emotionally, and the emotional person is considered the one that crossed the line because it's more visible, even if the initial comments were rude or over the line. I do kinda think sometimes that it can flip to "the wronged person didn't respond correctly so they're the wrong one", and I would definitely like to prevent that.

I also do think this is relevant! People will have different tolerances for pressing/manipulating people and what they consider acceptable and game relevant, and I do think that's going to be challenging to figure out across the board.

CCKeane posted:

Right, so a major issue that happened recently is people felt that they couldn't talk openly about what happened because people called them dicks/abusers for raising the issue, and responded aggressively that they were crossing a line for discussing it with other players/raising the issue. This isn't a hypothetical situation, it's something that happened directly, right?

I mean, honestly, I feel like throughout this I've been concerned about addressing/preventing the issues that arose elsewhere from happening again, and this feels really dismissive, right? Like, I'm using specific examples and concerns, and it's called loving outrageous, and I don't think that's fair.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:18

wologar: Feb 11, 2014; නෝනාවරුනි

I think that Keane (and Chaoslord) meant well, as they are looking at this as a bigger picture thing, and not just the recent thread interaction, which I think is what Cloaca focused on.

I also understand that Jump King (and Snooze?) can feel alienated by some reactions in the thread.

Basically, this seems to be a case of people talking past each other.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:24

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

Cloacamazing! posted:

I said that. This happened:

None of those posts were targeting you, they were just talking about the current situation in comparison to how things have been handled in the past. It's a complex topic with a lot of nuance, it should be ok to acknowledge that

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:24

Mordiceius: Nov 10, 2007; If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!

No one currently here hates each other. No one currently here wishes ill of anyone else.

I agree that we're seeing a bit of talking past each other. I think there are a couple different things being discussed at once but streams are getting cross and messages misinterpreted.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:36

Jump King: Aug 10, 2011

Ok so am I one of the people you�re talking about or not when you say the thread has been toxic or am I not? It wasn�t a rhetorical question, I want to know if I�m upsetting people with my posting in this thread when people say that returning players have made the thread bad.

E: to be clear I didn�t think I�ve been rude in this thread, but I also think Keane has been quite genuine in trying to hash this out here and feathers are clearly getting ruffled regardless so I don�t have a good grasp on the nature of the transgressions I guess and would really want clarity on that.

Jump King fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Mar 24, 2023

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:44

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

Mordiceius posted:

No one currently here hates each other. No one currently here wishes ill of anyone else.

I hate the old me. Can I say that?

Seriously. I went through an old game of mine and I wanted to report me for abuse. I'm sorry to everyone who had to endure that.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:46

t a s t e: Sep 6, 2010

redneck nazgul posted:

I hate the old me. Can I say that?

Seriously. I went through an old game of mine and I wanted to report me for abuse. I'm sorry to everyone who had to endure that.

The Benicer

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:48

Voodoofly: Jul 3, 2002; Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

redneck nazgul posted:

I hate the old me. Can I say that?

Seriously. I went through an old game of mine and I wanted to report me for abuse. I'm sorry to everyone who had to endure that.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:52

t a s t e: Sep 6, 2010

I love myself and all of you as well

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:53

Voodoofly: Jul 3, 2002; Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

t a s t e posted:

I love myself and all of you as well

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:53

death cob for cutie: Dec 30, 2006; dwarves won't delve no more
too much splatting down on Zot:4

I tolerate myself and like the rest of you well enough

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:55

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

death cob for cutie posted:

I tolerate myself and like the rest of you well enough

I tolerate you and like everyone else too

# ? Mar 24, 2023 19:59

wins32767: Mar 16, 2007

I hate everyone, but you all less than most people.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 20:01

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

I like half of you half as well as I should like, and like less than half of you half as well as you deserve

# ? Mar 24, 2023 20:02

wins32767: Mar 16, 2007

Seriously though, I think the standard ought to be "Be kind to everyone". Be nice implies conflict avoidance is the acme of behavior. Genuine care for other humans is the goal, not avoiding conflict for the sake of it.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 20:04

t a s t e: Sep 6, 2010

wins32767 posted:

Seriously though, I think the standard ought to be "Be kind to everyone". Be nice implies conflict avoidance is the acme of behavior. Genuine care for other humans is the goal, not avoiding conflict for the sake of it.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 20:07