[Premodern history] the year of the two fatal eruptions

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Premodern history] the year of the two fatal eruptions

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

i got a little greek orthodox curious the last few months cause it reminds me of home, the atmosphere and rituals are interesting, and i liked reading about early church history, the byzantine empire, lives of saints (most of whom lived around asia minor), the endless drama with Catholics and heresies, and so on. they also poo poo talk Protestants, and individualism all the time. there's stuff to like there.

and then I visited a convert church with fully English liturgy and it completely freaked me out, they were to the max with allllll the rituals and prostrations and extremely serious yet earnest and dying to help you in any way. big into modesty, headscarves, long skirts etc. apparently it's a thing in the US for entire parishes of evangelicals and baptists to convert to orthodoxy, and like 8/10 of clergy are former Protestants. also i learned more about rod dreher lol. by contrast, "ethnic" churches are probably more relaxed cause nobody has anything to prove, and there isn't any Protestant baggage. i couldn't fathom someone would want to be a part of this without any cultural connection.

terrified, I read Marx, Engels, and Plekhanov for days to come to my senses. thankfully I didn't actually absorb any belief. of course my problem is alienation and lack of agency:

quote:

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. � Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.

the foreclosure of the possibilities in this bit by the pancake man gets at the biosphere component of this a little:
Religion by Anton Pannekoek

www.marxists.org posted:

Thus, in all probability, the sources which, in the history of mankind have up until now fed the forces of religion will dry up. No natural power will any longer be able to frighten Man; no natural catastrophe, no storm, no floods, no earthquake or epidemic will be able to put his existence in danger. By ever more accurate predictions, by an ever greater development of the sciences and of an ever more wonderful technology, the dangers will be limited to the maximum: no human life will be wasted. Science and its applications will make mankind the master of natural forces which it will use for its own needs. No powerful or not understood social force will be able to attack or frighten mankind: they will master their fate by organising their work and at the same time master all the mental forces of the will and passion. The anguish of having to go before a supreme judge who will decide the fate of each person for eternity � an anguish which has been responsible for centuries for so many terrors for defenceless mankind � will disappear as soon as co-operation between men and sacrifice for the community are no longer fettered by moral laws. Thus all the functions which religion fulfilled in men�s thought and feelings will be filled by other ways of thinking and feeling.
�
Where the workers� labour power is permanently pitted against terrifying natural forces which are not properly dominated as a result of the weakness of capitalism, and which threaten them with death (as is the case for example with miners and fishermen), it is natural that their consciousness remains full of religious ideas and belief.

lol. I'm trying to discern better what I actually liked and saw a need for in this little phase.

there is an interesting podcast I found that may appeal to most people itt: Lord of Spirits. it's like if a better-informed Matt Christman did a pod about early Christianity and Judaism, and the episodes were 3 hours. it can be pretty funny and some of the analysis ends up surprisingly material. here's some bits from a recent episode on Constantine:

quote:

The first thing we need to talk about with St. Constantine is the vision he has, which kind of when he really steps on to the stage of history for most people, right, and this is related to his conversion to Christianity, Now, there are different accounts of this. You have Eusebius of Caesarea -- who wrote the Ecclesiastical History -- who was like the biggest simp for St. Constantine in the history of Earth. Really, it's depressing, right? It's like, pull yourself together, man -- when you read some of the stuff he writes St. Constantine... And I'm somebody who calls him Saint Constantine and I feel this way reading Eusebius. A lot of stuff sounds very embellished, shall we say?

We also have an account of this dream from Lactantius, who is more reserved about this kind of stuff. In terms of my own approach to this stuff, if both Eusebius and Lactantius talk about it, I think it's on secure footing. Eusebius records some stuff that's just weird. Like, before Constantine became a Christian, Eusebius has him in Britain having this vision of Apollo and Apollo predicting it's gonna rain for 30 years and you're like, "Apollo??!"

quote:

� Okay. The Council of Nicaea did not move Christian worship to Sundays.
� Sorry, Ellen G. White.
� Yeah, sorry, Ellen G. White. I think that's two episodes in a row.
� No, it was Mary Baker Eddy last time. And the fact that you can't tell white woman heresiarchs apart is some kind of racism. And I have to call you on it publicly.
�
� The Lord's Day. It's in the pages of the New Testament that the Christians were gathering on the Lord's day. This one is one where I have a theory again.

He did issue a law making Sunday the first day of the week. The Lord's Day. An official day of rest. Meaning -- what that functionally meant, right? If you were a farmer, you didn't get any days of rest, right. Which was most people. But in cities, government offices, for example, the bureaucratic offices of state, right -- the government offices, government functions were shut down on the Lord's Day, because everyone, including the government officials, including the emperor, were in the liturgy, right.

Except this is another one of those interesting little tidbits, when you read the law, there was one government office that stayed open on the Lord's Day. And that was the office of Manumission. If you wanted to free a slave, you could go free a slave on the Lord's Day. That's the one civil government function you were allowed to do. And the only testimony we have to the thoughts and feelings of St. Constantine on that he understands something about the Lord's Day and the Resurrection

� And finally, the Council of Nicaea did not have the option to change the mode of production in the Empire, which seems like a kind of abstruse thing for us to deny, but people have said this. Like, "They had a chance to get together and vote like to end slavery. They could have done it!"

� Yes. People have said this recently, very well educated, very smart people -- in public -- who know a lot. I would name names on this show, but I don't do that, especially what I'm about to say something is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard in my life.

� So yes, yes. A very wise, smart, intelligent person and then a bunch of other at least reasonably intelligent people like retweeted this and praised this like the most brilliant thing ever said... What this person said is one of the most colossally stupid things I've ever heard (and you can tell him that, and I'll explain it to a bit person): That that this was a horrible missed opportunity, because they could have, they could have ended slavery, they could have ended poverty in the Roman Empire.

Like they could have just voted to do that. Right. Like, let's just completely change the economic system under which the entire Roman Empire functions. By 300 bishops voting on it. About something that the council was not convened to decide, even. remotely and, and has no jurisdiction over. But there's multiple levels to how dumb this is.

So the first, the first level of how dumb it is, like we just said that that would have worked if they tried it, right. That was actually a possibility.

I mean, we should not say that we're like, pro slavery or anything. It's just like, No, this was not a possibility. That was not something they could do.

Now, there were people at this time, for example, like Gregory of Nissa (well, a little after this time). Two subsequent Paschas, in his sermon, he told his people, they had to free all their slaves because it was morally wrong for them to claim to own another person created in the image of Christ. We just talked about how the Manumission Office was the one office open on the Lord's day, right. So yeah, clearly, Christianity was going to end slavery, but you can't do that in like, a day by a bunch of Bishops voting, right? Because an Empire is a complex economy. Sources of labor and value generation, at least, you can't just like flip a switch, like, "Okay, now we're gonna be capitalists," right?

� And let's face it, when was the last time that an an agreed-upon statement voted on by bishops became immediately effective to everyone who possibly read it? I wish, but no.

� But there's a deeper level of dumb, there's a deeper level of dumb. And that deeper level of dumb is not understanding that there are material preconditions for ideas to emerge. So part of the reason they couldn't decide to become a capitalist democracy in 325, at the Council of Nicaea, is that they had no idea what capitalism or democracy were. These ideas did not exist yet. You can't have capitalism, really, until you have the idea of it closer at until you have the idea of commodity production. At the beginning of industrialization, which didn't exist yet -- like the ideas on which those later ideas were built did not exist yet. Right?

So yes, people say, "Gregory of Nissa could look at the institution of slavery and say this is wrong and say to individual people, you need to not participate in this," right?

But let's say they take it a vote to end slavery and St. Constantine said, "You're right. I hereby issue this law: Slavery is over everyone is free." What happens the day after? Who's farming food? This requires massive restructuring. So not only could they not have done it, right, but they could not have even conceived of doing it in 325.

So the idea that somehow was a missed opportunity, that the Fathers of the Council of Nicaea are somehow blameworthy, because they're too narrow minded and just focusing on this theological stuff and not, you know, our important bourgeois liberal values, is ridiculous and absurd -- and one of the stupidest things that's ever been said publicly. They couldn't have done that. This argument is like saying that Vatican I in the middle of the 19th century should have voted to abolish the euro (which didn't exist yet). Anyway

slightly embarrassing times but learned some things

# ? Mar 25, 2023 23:31

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 18:44

FrancisFukyomama: Feb 4, 2019

i remember seeing a pew survey saying that orthodox Americans are actually quite a bit more socially liberal than the average American, which I assume is bc the ethnic churches are mostly full of nice Greek moms and the like

# ? Mar 25, 2023 23:59

War and Pieces: Apr 24, 2022; DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

Azathoth posted:

The parts that usually get mentioned as being historical are that Jesus was from Nazareth, was a follower of John the Baptist, came to understand that he was the Messiah that John was predicting, preached publicly for a bit, then got got by the Romans.

I think it's a stretch to say for sure that the historical Jesus understood that he was the messiah but Jesus for sure took over the baptizer sect immediately after John was killed.

Joshua Ben Joseph was the original entryist

War and Pieces has issued a correction as of 00:21 on Mar 26, 2023

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:11

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

as a Protestant, let me officially say that Protestants ruin everything

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:17

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

how would the prot crusades have gone

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:18

Animal-Mother: Feb 14, 2012; RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

Jesus was a real guy but, controversially, he was actually Jewish.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:29

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

i say swears online posted:

how would the prot crusades have gone

You'd start with one crusade, then two guys would get into a fight about something and you'd have two crusades. Then you'd repeat that process until you've got the Northern Branch of the Reformed Crusade of the Convention of 1098 going off to fight the unbelievers* two towns over.

*What they don't believe is an arcane point on the nature of Christ that even theologians have a hard time articulating but which everyone is quite sure is worth murdering each other over.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:29

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Protskyists

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:46

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

i say swears online posted:

how would the prot crusades have gone

the british empire

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:47

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

i've seen too much speaking in tongues in person to ever consider anglicans protestant

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:48

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

my friend married a romanian and their orthodox wedding was like longer than a marvel movie cause every part was repeated 3 times. i was dying it was so long.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:48

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Real hurthling! posted:

my friend married a romanian and their orthodox wedding was like longer than a marvel movie cause every part was repeated 3 times. i was dying it was so long.

I went to a Romanian Orthodox wedding once and they brought in a preacher from another country to give an hour long speech in Romanian with no translation for those of us that didn't speak Romanian

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:51

War and Pieces: Apr 24, 2022; DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

vyelkin posted:

I went to a Romanian Orthodox wedding once and they brought in a preacher from another country to give an hour long speech in Romanian with no translation for those of us that didn't speak Romanian

get with the times my church has supertitles like the MET

# ? Mar 26, 2023 00:57

Nocturtle: Mar 17, 2007

I recently read The Abrahamic Religions: A Very Short Introduction and don't recommend it. However one interesting observation it made was how the early Christian church was sort of forced to address the tricky question of Jesus' divinity from the start because the story of Jesus was the main thing differentiating them from any number of contemporary Jewish sects. The overall sense is that the early Christian church succeeded in spite of itself and being hampered by this kind of theological baggage.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 03:44

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

mawarannahr posted:

there is an interesting podcast I found that may appeal to most people itt: Lord of Spirits. it's like if a better-informed Matt Christman did a pod about early Christianity and Judaism, and the episodes were 3 hours. it can be pretty funny and some of the analysis ends up surprisingly material. here's some bits from a recent episode on Constantine:

slightly embarrassing times but learned some things

IDK what being better informed than Christman implies but afaik only a few American churches consider Sunday to be the sabbath, most christian denominations hold that it's Saturday, so I'd take the rest of this stuff with a grain of salt.

War and Pieces posted:

I think it's a stretch to say for sure that the historical Jesus understood that he was the messiah but Jesus for sure took over the baptizer sect immediately after John was killed.

Joshua Ben Joseph was the original entryist

Jesus isn't the only messiah identified in the bible so if he considered himself messiah, it would be one of a group, a messiah.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 03:53

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Weka posted:

most christian denominations hold that it's Saturday

which Christian denominations celebrate the sabbath on Saturday

# ? Mar 26, 2023 04:26

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

indigi posted:

which Christian denominations celebrate the sabbath on Saturday

seventh day adventists if they count

# ? Mar 26, 2023 04:27

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

i chose to believe the last temptation of christ (1988) is exactly how it went down.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 04:28

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

i say swears online posted:

seventh day adventists if they count

that's one. I think there's more denominations than that though

# ? Mar 26, 2023 04:33

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

no that's the majority

# ? Mar 26, 2023 04:40

War and Pieces: Apr 24, 2022; DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

Stairmaster posted:

i chose to believe the last temptation of christ (1988) is exactly how it went down.

I choose to believe in a supercut of LTofC and Jc Superstar with a bit of Life of Brian for good measure

# ? Mar 26, 2023 04:43

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Weka posted:

IDK what being better informed than Christman implies but afaik only a few American churches consider Sunday to be the sabbath, most christian denominations hold that it's Saturday, so I'd take the rest of this stuff with a grain of salt.

Could you be more specific? Sabbath is not mentioned in that passage, and Saturday is the sabbath anyway; the Lord's Day is a different day, Sunday.

I think Matt's often wrong on his podcasts but makes up for it with personality and I think he would probably acknowledge that. In general I think this show is about a field in which the hosts hold advanced degrees, with knowledge of Greek, and decades of study. They are often wrong when they talk about anything that's not to do with Christianity (e.g. Islam, science)

# ? Mar 26, 2023 04:46

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Stairmaster posted:

i chose to believe the last temptation of christ (1988) is exactly how it went down.

I like the idea of Jesus being a truly hideous motherfucker like Willem Dafoe

# ? Mar 26, 2023 06:13

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

What would Jesus do? Propably talk poo poo about pharisees based on some theology about judaism that we wouldn't understand.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 09:36

Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

i say swears online posted:

seventh day adventists if they count

they make good soy milk

# ? Mar 26, 2023 10:02

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

mawarannahr posted:

Could you be more specific? Sabbath is not mentioned in that passage, and Saturday is the sabbath anyway; the Lord's Day is a different day, Sunday.

I think Matt's often wrong on his podcasts but makes up for it with personality and I think he would probably acknowledge that. In general I think this show is about a field in which the hosts hold advanced degrees, with knowledge of Greek, and decades of study. They are often wrong when they talk about anything that's not to do with Christianity (e.g. Islam, science)

I think the thing that threw me was his line
"It's in the pages of the New Testament that the Christians were gathering on the Lord's day."
which is technically correct I guess, but I read it as worshiping then, or at least gathering regularly then, which as I remember is described as happening on the sabbath. So I guess my criticism is a lot smaller than originally, just that any descriptions in the New Testament of Christians gathering on Sunday is like 'on Sunday the disciples were breaking bread' and not about Sunday being a day of note.
My bad, but his too.

indigi posted:

which Christian denominations celebrate the sabbath on Saturday

Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 11:06

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Weka posted:

I think the thing that threw me was his line
"It's in the pages of the New Testament that the Christians were gathering on the Lord's day."
which is technically correct I guess, but I read it as worshiping then, or at least gathering regularly then, which as I remember is described as happening on the sabbath. So I guess my criticism is a lot smaller than originally, just that any descriptions in the New Testament of Christians gathering on Sunday is like 'on Sunday the disciples were breaking bread' and not about Sunday being a day of note.
My bad, but his too.

still not sure what you mean

i say swears online posted:

seventh day adventists if they count

the Ellen G. White they mentioned founded the seventh day adventists fwiw

anyway it's just a stupid podcast I enjoyed and will probably listen to for a while longer, which has a guy who sounds like and gets riled up like another podcast guy, that's just a part from the last episode listened to which reminded me. they've got some interesting topics.

mawarannahr has issued a correction as of 11:27 on Mar 26, 2023

# ? Mar 26, 2023 11:15

War and Pieces: Apr 24, 2022; DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

Fish of hemp posted:

What would Jesus do? Propably talk poo poo about pharisees based on some theology about judaism that we wouldn't understand.

he was too bumpkin to talk theology but he could fight

# ? Mar 26, 2023 12:41

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

i find this discussion very silly because as has been infallibly revealed to us, Īsā ibn Maryam (PBUH) was a true prophet of Allah, so what value could the speculation of a buncha medieval yakubian apes possibly add?

# ? Mar 26, 2023 12:44

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Weka posted:

Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans.

none of those "celebrate" the sabbath it was a fundamental part of de-Judaizing the religion in the first few centuries. Origen or tertullian went as far as to say the sabbath had been changed to Sunday

indigi has issued a correction as of 14:25 on Mar 26, 2023

# ? Mar 26, 2023 14:23

Dameius: Apr 3, 2006

How is the virgin birth viewed through a historical lens? Just something they made up, with "they" being anyone from Mary and Joseph through to the gospel writers? Or was Jesus the Bastard the first and last of his dynasty? Or not enough to say in any direction so my wildest fanfiction, oc do not steal, is just as legitimate as Paul's?

# ? Mar 26, 2023 15:29

keep punching joe: Jan 22, 2006; Die Satan!

The birth of jesus is a later addition to the story. The oldest version of the gospels 'Mark' does not include either the nativity or reserection. It begins from Jesus being baptised by John the Baptist as an adult, and ends ~~with the crucifixion~~ his tomb being found empty by two women who freak out and run away. It's even quite light on miracles compared to Matthew and Luke, which were both supposedly written decades after Mark.

Mark is probably the closest your ever going to get to a historical account of jesus (it was written about 70 years after the fact by someone who had probably no connection to the events described) , unless some even older scroll shows up one day from an actual eyewitness.

keep punching joe has issued a correction as of 16:12 on Mar 26, 2023

# ? Mar 26, 2023 15:38

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

It's also well understood now that the Old Testament passage that supposedly prophesied a virgin giving birth to the Messiah was mistranslated and what was translated as "virgin" actually meant "young woman". The inclusion of an actual virgin birth in the Gospels to fulfill what the authors thought was an Old Testament prophecy but really wasn't is pretty funny in retrospect.

# ? Mar 26, 2023 16:08

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

Azathoth posted:

It's also well understood now that the Old Testament passage that supposedly prophesied a virgin giving birth to the Messiah was mistranslated and what was translated as "virgin" actually meant "young woman". The inclusion of an actual virgin birth in the Gospels to fulfill what the authors thought was an Old Testament prophecy but really wasn't is pretty funny in retrospect.

We're in the middle of a diamond heist, can we discuss theology later?

# ? Mar 26, 2023 16:13

SexyBlindfold: Apr 24, 2008; i dont care how much probation i get capital letters are for squares hehe im so laid back an nice please read my low effort shitposts about the arab spring

thanxs!!!

last page but

Slavvy posted:

Trans black achilles fights lesbian asian hector, minorities get to take part in the only history that matters, problem solved

i know this is a joke and there were people raising a stink about some show casting a black actor as Achilles, but didn't the Epic Cycle originally have a black arch-rival for Achilles who had his own book about him and his army of one thousand Ethiopians but it was lost to time so modern adaptations just pretend he doesn't exist because all he gets in the Iliad is somebody pointing and going "hey look it's Memnon! we all know Memnom, from the best-selling The Book About Memnon, right? anyway, moving on"

# ? Mar 26, 2023 23:15

War and Pieces: Apr 24, 2022; DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

Historically a lot of people had virgin births and theologically Issa was conceived miraculously in Islam but that doesn't automatically make him divine.

keep punching joe posted:

Mark is probably the closest your ever going to get to a historical account of jesus (it was written about 70 years after the fact by someone who had probably no connection to the events described) , unless some even older scroll shows up one day from an actual eyewitness.

the writers of Matthew and Mark both have a copy or copies of the sayings bible available to them so if you can plausibly choose to believe that the parables of Jesus were transmitted more of less accurately.

Direct quotes framed within menomic devices are the kind of thing that could perhaps survive a 70 year game of telephone.

War and Pieces has issued a correction as of 00:00 on Mar 27, 2023

# ? Mar 26, 2023 23:56