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Swords to Plowshares is about as iconic as white cards get. If you think it's out of color pie, I kind of question how you think about the color pie in general.
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Mar 27, 2023 18:51
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Wittgen posted:Swords to Plowshares is about as iconic as white cards get. If you think it's out of color pie, I kind of question how you think about the color pie in general. Strictly speaking you’re right, white is allowed to exile stuff and give its owner compensation, but it’s a break in terms of efficiency and vibe I think, so even tho it’s in pie, in aggregate it’s probably too efficient for white. Technically a 3 cmc green creature with flash and deathtouch and Hexproof that fights when it ETBs is all in Green’s part of the colour pie, but in practice that’s basically just Murder so they’ll never print it. They’ve printed StP variants since but they’re all worse in one way or another.
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Mar 27, 2023 19:02
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mandatory lesbian posted:The 1/1 ring will be worthless bc there will be so many counterfeit sellers that it will be impossible to find the real one I’m going to buy a stack of Chinese counterfeits and go around leaving them in draft chaff piles at gaming stores.
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Mar 27, 2023 19:07
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Without having a high res image to scan how good can the knockoffs possibly be?
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Mar 27, 2023 19:24
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Khanstant posted:I bet Realmbreaker would've caused a lot of havok in some weird time wimey way even if it weren't paired with Phyrexian invasion.
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Mar 27, 2023 19:24
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Without having a high res image to scan how good can the knockoffs possibly be? Without a high rez reference image what will you check the fakes against? 
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Mar 27, 2023 19:26
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Sylvian Wastes posted:Vraska, Jace, and Nahiri are probably coming back as planeswalkers. Boo. Still hoping they let em' all go, consequences for the story are good and it's not like they can't keep printing new cards of these characters in expansion or throwback products.
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Mar 27, 2023 19:26
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fadam posted:Strictly speaking you’re right, white is allowed to exile stuff and give its owner compensation, but it’s a break in terms of efficiency and vibe I think, so even tho it’s in pie, in aggregate it’s probably too efficient for white. That'd be an interesting card because you could "counter" it with something like a Shock. I kind of want to see it now, maybe a BG card. oh edit nevermind, I didn't see hexproof
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Mar 27, 2023 19:27
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fadam posted:Strictly speaking you’re right, white is allowed to exile stuff and give its owner compensation, but it’s a break in terms of efficiency and vibe I think, so even tho it’s in pie, in aggregate it’s probably too efficient for white. They kept the effect as white for Solitude so I don't think wizards considers it out of whites color pie even when pushing efficiency level.
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Mar 27, 2023 19:28
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I recall there was discussion about artist pay a while back. Here's a thread by the artist on this sick illustration from the next set: https://twitter.com/rhineville/status/1640395465643507719 tldr: Base pay is $1k. Nuts. Selling prints and 'the original' (which only sort of makes sense for digital art) has to be where it's at. And, sigh, exposure, I guess.
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Mar 27, 2023 19:42
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:tldr: Base pay is $1k. Nuts. Selling prints and 'the original' (which only sort of makes sense for digital art) has to be where it's at. And, sigh, exposure, I guess. I seem to recall Jenn Ravenna Tran talking about the "exposure" thing once upon a time on Twitter. She's since given up doing artwork for M:TG (she said her last remaining artworks have recently been released).
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Mar 27, 2023 19:43
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fadam posted:Strictly speaking you’re right, white is allowed to exile stuff and give its owner compensation, but it’s a break in terms of efficiency and vibe I think, so even tho it’s in pie, in aggregate it’s probably too efficient for white. Exactly the color pie isn't only about "what effects a color has access to" but also cost and Rarity. I doubt they'd give white efficient removal at common either
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Mar 27, 2023 19:52
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:I recall there was discussion about artist pay a while back. Here's a thread by the artist on this sick illustration from the next set: not saying $1K is good enough but yes when the set gets spoiled they usually start selling stuff they used to create the art. it can include the final version of the art, but also they sell lots of the sketches and pre-final paintings. even if you are digital for the final art a lot of the digital artists still sketch out their stuff before hand and sell those off as well. i think one of the digital artists has done a "repaint" where they'll recreated the art but on an actual board. unfortunately though the resell value sometimes is completely random in that sometimes you'll paint something that is worth a lot of money because of what's on it. lots of the d&d paintings from AFR went for nutso amounts because it was D&D. i forgot which paintings it was but some sold for over $100K+. i'm expecting something will probably sell for asimilar price for the LOTR cards' paintings.
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Mar 27, 2023 19:56
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fadam posted:Strictly speaking you’re right, white is allowed to exile stuff and give its owner compensation, but it’s a break in terms of efficiency and vibe I think, so even tho it’s in pie, in aggregate it’s probably too efficient for white. Are we hung up on what a color should do or does some of this come down to where WotC wants the general power to be in [format]?
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Mar 27, 2023 19:58
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Bell_ posted:Is lightning bolt too efficient for red? Idk about Lightning Bolt, probably not. I think Unholy Heat is an interesting case. 99% of the time in the average modern game it reads “R, destroy target creature.” Is that out of pie?
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Mar 27, 2023 20:04
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Bell_ posted:Is lightning bolt too efficient for red? no because red's supposed to be best at direct damage. if it's too efficient that means it's overpowered, but doesn't mean it's a break. the issue is if a color that is supposed to do something, but worse than another color, is suddenly the best at it that might be a break even if the card isn't overpowered. since the whole point is each color has tradeoffs and weaknesses compared to others, if suddenly it's the best at something its not supposed to be that upsets the balance. it might be a break if red got a "one mana: do 100 damage to target creature" though as that is for all intents and purposes a one-mana unconditional kill spell
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Mar 27, 2023 20:09
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:I recall there was discussion about artist pay a while back. Here's a thread by the artist on this sick illustration from the next set: Outside of the discussion of compensation, this is just a fascinating thread about Rainville’s thought process and influences.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:09
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:I recall there was discussion about artist pay a while back. Here's a thread by the artist on this sick illustration from the next set: Amazing breakdown of the art creation and process, and I'm definitely buying a print or playmat from him, that's way more than 1k of rushed art labour there. The DnD movie cards they showed recently make more sense thinking of the face constraints they probably had combined with low pay and tight deadlines.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:09
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No wonder the writing's been poo poo for Magic. If they're only paying a grand for art like this, they're probably not even paying a penny a word.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:12
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Strong Sauce posted:unfortunately though the resell value sometimes is completely random in that sometimes you'll paint something that is worth a lot of money because of what's on it. lots of the d&d paintings from AFR went for nutso amounts because it was D&D. i forgot which paintings it was but some sold for over $100K+. i'm expecting something will probably sell for asimilar price for the LOTR cards' paintings. i imagine the new paintings by the classic D&D artists were the really expensive ones (jeff easley, diesel, erol otus). even fans of D&D going back decades who had zero interest in mtg were all over those in specific.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:16
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Strong Sauce posted:i'm expecting something will probably sell for asimilar price for the LOTR cards' paintings. Apparently the LOTR rightsholders mandated digital-only for that set, unfortunately
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Mar 27, 2023 20:36
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Dumb question, but how do artists like this make money if you don’t sell your stuff to game companies? Just conventions and commissions?
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Mar 27, 2023 20:39
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fadam posted:Dumb question, but how do artists like this make money if you don’t sell your stuff to game companies? Just conventions and commissions?
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Mar 27, 2023 20:45
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I thought every set Wotc might commission a few select pieces of higher than average quality key art that they pay more for, but I guess not.
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Mar 27, 2023 20:51
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fadam posted:I think you’re right, but interestingly enough the drawback of PtE basically doesn’t exist in some formats. Some CEDH lists run Path over Swords because giving a Naus deck life feels bad and a ton of lists can’t afford to run basics so it’s almost all upside, and I think basics in Modern might be at an all time low? The last time I played Murktide I was on zero basics. That might be because Path is sharing its slots with a lot of good options now, tho. To your last point, there's Winds of Abandon and Settle the Wreckage. It's rare, but not unheard-of. As far as Path vs. Swords I agree that it's not nearly as clear-cut as most people make it out to be. For EDH, I like the flexibility to Path yourself if you're absolutely mana-screwed, plus I think there's occasionally some value in forcing an opponent to shuffle. For non-cEDH generally it's often just not a big deal to give someone an extra land, especially if you're mono- or heavy-white and using a lot of catch-up ramp. My general line of thought is that Swords is better on turns 1-3, after which Path starts catching up or even passing Swords due to the edge-case utility. RE: the art discussion, I never know how to evaluate pricing. $1k is 40 hours at 25/hr, or 50 hours at 20/hr. That's not amazing but it's firmly in the "steady paycheck" realm of things? I have to imagine the average artist would have a tough time finding anyone to pay them a better rate unless they find that random billionaire sponsor.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:03
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orangelex44 posted:To your last point, there's Winds of Abandon and Settle the Wreckage. It's rare, but not unheard-of. Winds of Abandon rocks, can’t believe I forgot it.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:06
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I brought my Drake posted:No wonder the writing's been poo poo for Magic. If they're only paying a grand for art like this, they're probably not even paying a penny a word. The posted rate for dnd writing, last time I checked, was the industry minimum 5 cents per word. You can probably find it on their website if you look for postings, it might be 10 now. There's been a big push in TTRPGs to get people to pay 20 cents per word and most of the smaller publishers seem to be on that rate now, but wotc has always paid people very poorly.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:09
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Strong Sauce posted:unfortunately though the resell value sometimes is completely random in that sometimes you'll paint something that is worth a lot of money because of what's on it. lots of the d&d paintings from AFR went for nutso amounts because it was D&D. i forgot which paintings it was but some sold for over $100K+. i'm expecting something will probably sell for asimilar price for the LOTR cards' paintings. The licensing situation for lord of the rings means the artists don't get to retain the same kind rights they do for normal sets, so I don't think we'll be seeing similar sales. Hopefully the artists got paid appropriately more.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:13
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fadam posted:Idk about Lightning Bolt, probably not. I think Unholy Heat is an interesting case. 99% of the time in the average modern game it reads “R, destroy target creature.” Is that out of pie? tbh I think Unholy Heat is completely within red's wheelhouse, but is also like way too efficient
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Mar 27, 2023 21:15
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Chakan posted:The posted rate for dnd writing, last time I checked, was the industry minimum 5 cents per word. You can probably find it on their website if you look for postings, it might be 10 now. There's been a big push in TTRPGs to get people to pay 20 cents per word and most of the smaller publishers seem to be on that rate now, but wotc has always paid people very poorly. I remember when they posted a job for a programmer in Seattle at $15/hour. But you get to work for your favourite company!
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Mar 27, 2023 21:16
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Wittgen posted:The licensing situation for lord of the rings means the artists don't get to retain the same kind rights they do for normal sets, so I don't think we'll be seeing similar sales. Hopefully the artists got paid appropriately more. i just went through the art market and they actually do have a notice about that. the entire thing was done via digital art and they can't even give the artists permission to sell prints nor will they get artist proofs..  i hope they do get paid more for these. drat. what a shame. this is great though. lmao  edit: first comment in the fb thread says that the artists do get more money for the LOTR art.. but not sure how much more.. kinda sucks they can't just get paid more and sell their art. Strong Sauce fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Mar 27, 2023 |
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Mar 27, 2023 21:39
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Froghammer posted:Generally yes. Art doesn't and never has paid the bills for the vast majority of artists. It's gross as hell that it's "just the way it's done" in the industry, too. I have... I have many thoughts about the creative labor market. Khanstant posted:Amazing breakdown of the art creation and process, and I'm definitely buying a print or playmat from him, that's way more than 1k of rushed art labour there. Igor Kieryluk's original for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite was digital, but he sells MASSIVE (by which I mean 40in by 30in) canvas prints of it and lemme tell ya I really want to get one. It's BY FAR my favorite piece of Magic art ever. For the amount of nerdy poo poo in this apartment, the fact that I have no Magic art is a crime.
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Mar 27, 2023 21:48
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rickiep00h posted:It's gross as hell that it's "just the way it's done" in the industry, too. I have... I have many thoughts about the creative labor market. Unfortunately it's supply and demand. People will do it for the price they're offered. It's only going to get worse too, as AI generation starts to become a more and more attractive alternative.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:14
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orangelex44 posted:Unfortunately it's supply and demand. People will do it for the price they're offered. ...are you implying that there are too many artists and it's their own fault they're not being paid enough? I sure hope not.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:33
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rickiep00h posted:...are you implying that there are too many artists and it's their own fault they're not being paid enough? I sure hope not. No, I'm saying that it's a job market with relatively low demand. There aren't a ton of people who have MTG-quality artistic skills, but there are simply even fewer people that want those skills. It's nobody's "fault".
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Mar 27, 2023 22:42
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orangelex44 posted:No, I'm saying that it's a job market with relatively low demand. There aren't a ton of people who have MTG-quality artistic skills, but there are simply even fewer people that want those skills. It's nobody's "fault". ...what? Magic had over a billion dollars in sales last year. Art is absolutely in demand. Companies being averse to paying for it is more about their ability to suppress wages than it is some invisible hand of the market.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:48
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rickiep00h posted:It's gross as hell that it's "just the way it's done" in the industry, too. I have... I have many thoughts about the creative labor market. I like to think I have tens of thousands of magic art prints in my bedroom alone. Few hundred in my Magic backpack at least. I also do but set booster boxes from time to time just because I love the art cards, one day want an all art card commander vanity deck. I do use art cards for lands from Bro as my basic draft lands and in commander decks. Not my favourite land arts but the only affordable ones at the time. Art cards for normal popularity cards have a weird curve of super affordable in x17 bulk shortly after release and then rise.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:50
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Wittgen posted:...what? Magic had over a billion dollars in sales last year. Art is absolutely in demand. Companies being averse to paying for it is more about their ability to suppress wages than it is some invisible hand of the market. One company does not a job market make. Even the gaming industry doesn't really have enough demand to drive things on a large scale.
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Mar 27, 2023 22:56
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Also has the $1000 figure not budged in a decade plus? I’m pretty sure it’s been over a decade since I first heard that’s what they pay for commissions, and that wasn’t new info at the time.
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Mar 27, 2023 23:21
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:I recall there was discussion about artist pay a while back. Here's a thread by the artist on this sick illustration from the next set: Assuming 8 hours a day over 9 days means he got paid ~$13 an hour to make an absolutely amazing piece of art. Which is shameful, before even getting into the intricacies of IP and all that. It's great that he's able to sell prints and the attention from this card means he might be able to ask for a higher premium next time but yeesh the labor dynamic is just terrible. I brought my Drake posted:No wonder the writing's been poo poo for Magic. If they're only paying a grand for art like this, they're probably not even paying a penny a word. For a while I think WotC got lucky by contracting some up and coming writers but seems like they've all moved on. Since the MTG stories don't get published as novels anymore that probably diminishes the appeal of the gig, plus writing to predetermined story beats isn't fun. Definitely a work for exposure or because you really like MTG type of thing. orangelex44 posted:One company does not a job market make. Even the gaming industry doesn't really have enough demand to drive things on a large scale. There's a big market for artists, but the demand for those skills is more back of the shop type stuff (design, user experience, etc) than it used to be. However companies definitely trade on the sentiment you're expressing here to undervalue artistic talent, which sucks immensely. MTG wouldn't have lasted this long without the art and they can definitely afford to better by their artists.
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Mar 27, 2023 23:33
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