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Rosalind posted:*snip* I'm really sorry that happened to you. I remember your posts in that thread and I really liked what you had to say, I understand that you won't be coming back, but for what it's worth people did see and appreciate your posts, thank you for making them.
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Mar 28, 2023 00:58
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Harold Fjord posted:Doesn't matter, through your selective quotation you've effectively acknowledged the problem that is obviously more serious It was a two argument stance: 1. People in CSPAM already know about it I needed to ask why that's a problem because talking and discussing poo poo with people who share some knowledge isn't a problem to me? 2. Serious, well written arguments have no place in CSPAM I don't need to ask why that's a problem because that's clearly under D&D's remit (as an aside I've seen plenty of serious well written arguments in CSPAM, it's one of the arguments for why the CSPAM Ukraine thread is good) This thread is explicitly a poo poo post allowed zone, so there's going to be a lot of shitposts, I'm asking about the day to day standard threads in D&D that aren't chat or casual threads.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:01
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You should come to the US pol. The problem with explaining stuff slowly to people when they already know it is
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Mar 28, 2023 01:04
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this is a D&D feedback thread, please post about D&D moderation and not slapfights with other posters.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:04
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I'm not calling out individual posters but I'll happily call my own posts low effort poo poo posts. It's explicitly a loose chat thread and nothing in there is being held to very high standards since most of it is whatever futurist musings and layman bullshitting about AI. The average D&D thread is a regional chat thread about news and politics.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:06
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Gumball Gumption posted:I'm not calling out individual posters but I'll happily call my own posts low effort poo poo posts. I looked and as representative example: Gumball Gumption posted:I think it's important to note that it's training included example MEE essays. It's interesting but GPT-4 being trained for the exams and passing them is then not indicative of performance in a court room. It does show that it would be of value as an information store for lawyers. I don't think this is a poo poo post. You're making good conversation. Have a higher opinion of what you post.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:17
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Even when trying to discuss the derailment in East Palestine, we had folks with HAZWOPER certs and professional experience in shipping and chemistry constantly fighting a giant lovely tweets, vibes posting and folks substituting one chemical for another in their sources after repeatedly being told not to. It’s loving ridiculous how anyone with any life experience in a topic gets poo poo on by folks who believe they aren’t ideologically pure enough. Remember when we had a thread on Venezuela, and all the Venezuelans were chased out? Good times.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:31
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Or how Live and Let Die got doxxed with an AV purchase. Are we saying someone was doxxed because they purchased an avatar? That sounds really extreme and not okay at all. I'm surprised I am the only one catching this at all.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:39
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Solkanar512 posted:
100 percent you can look back at the Venezuela thread and be like "oh that's what the Ukraine thread would have been like if mods hadn't made things in D&D more boringer" Absolutely a case study
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Mar 28, 2023 01:41
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Turgid Flagella posted:Ah yes, the absolute abuse of being exposed to the idea that landlords are parasites Someone makes an extremely aggro post based on an extremist interpretation that morphs into an absolutist political take that was never part of the prior debate (whether housing is a human right). I call out that post as an example of what drives people away, the people who came to share info and learn and don't want every discussion to devolve into a sprawling fight to take the moral high ground at all costs. And then the reply to that is an insistence that it MUST be a political disagreement rather than finding the OP tediously aggro. Controlling the framework of the argument so it can't possibly indicate the aggro person is wrong, because they are reiterating that they hold the one correct moral position. I either put up with bad faith posting cloaked in puritanical spirit, or I stop posting anywhere it's allowed. Harold Fjord posted:Man, it's weird how this only affects people on your team and your posts like this have never made any good poster leave.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:42
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:it needs to be casual and chatty because that's what people want, in different flavors. people don't want to defend their posts as if they were dissertations, they want to tell people to shut the gently caress up. we're not going to be able to mandate people only make informed posts, that is outside of the capacity of moderation. something awful is just a smaller version of what we've been learning about the internet over many years now - larger networks simply lead to more arguing, deliberate contention and trolling. smaller networks are gatekept to keep out overly combative or difficult people. if i've got smaller networks that meet my discussion needs, what can this place offer me when i'm bored with being purposefully combative at folks who have opinions i dont like? This is not what I want. If challenged, I want to be forced to defend my assertions with more substance than a "because I said so" type one-liner. I want others to do the same as well. This is why I post in D&D. If that's the kind of posting you want to engage in, you can go to GBS/CSPAM/etc so you can simply call others nerds/telling people to shut the gently caress up/etc if they challenge something in your post. There's lots of places here for shitposting, not every subforum needs to have that as a requirement Kalit fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Mar 28, 2023 |
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Mar 28, 2023 01:44
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Skippy McPants posted:This forum is a joyless stick-in-the-mud, and I like it that way. It's nice to have someplace on SA where I can go to read about an issue without the need to skim through pages of shitposting and empty quotes. I disagree with this post. D&D has been way less funny over the last few years. poo poo posting is amazing and I miss it dearly. If I want to read something academic then I will read an article written by an actual expert. Along with that this place has really become an echo chamber and it is not nearly as fun to read. If anyone steps out of line they get mobbed. That sucks. Good funny poo poo posts should be allowed and we should be more inviting to more diverse opinions.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:46
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Kalit posted:This is not what I want. If challenged, I want to be forced to defend my assertions with more substance than a "because I said so" type one-liner. I want others to do the same as well. This is why I post in D&D.  i also want informed people to post well reasoned arguments, but i dont find that here. i find that in other places, so i post those things there, and here is where i read posts about video games and if someone's being a weird rear end about teacher salaries or whatever i just tell them to shut uplike i said, i dont think it is possible to mandate that people post knowledgably or well. you can really only get that as a value enforced by an entire community, and for whatever reason, that value is simply not present here. not every place needs to meet every person's needs, you know? Solkanar512 posted:Even when trying to discuss the derailment in East Palestine, we had folks with HAZWOPER certs and professional experience in shipping and chemistry constantly fighting a giant lovely tweets, vibes posting and folks substituting one chemical for another in their sources after repeatedly being told not to. haha yeah there were folks reposting in USCE a twitter troll who just posts the most inflammatory things they can think of to get attention, but posters in there who really should know better were taking this person's posts as credible truth folks just want to argue here. it's fine, some people want that, some people don't. some people want to repost every weird thing they see on twitter. thats also fine, its just not something i'm interested in engaging with, but lucky for me there's a big internet out there to read Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Mar 28, 2023 |
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Mar 28, 2023 01:46
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Are we saying someone was doxxed because they purchased an avatar? That sounds really extreme and not okay at all. I'm surprised I am the only one catching this at all. You can't really dox someone by repeating a thing they posted but LALD is a funny example of someone with hands on experience being blown off because they are acerbic about it. I don't disagree with them on most things but I do think a honey over flies approach would help them. It just gets the people who will never learn to mob them and people who would learn to walk away from the scene. Being nice and right just gives those who won't learn space to be a fool. Edit: welp wrong about the first bit! Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Mar 28, 2023 |
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Mar 28, 2023 01:48
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Are we saying someone was doxxed because they purchased an avatar? That sounds really extreme and not okay at all. I'm surprised I am the only one catching this at all. No, someone purchased an avatar that was a pic him in real life from his job or something. The culprit was never identified because the avatar purchase system is anonymous.
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Mar 28, 2023 01:51
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:No, someone purchased an avatar that was a pic him in real life from his job or something. The culprit was never identified because the avatar purchase system is anonymous. Oh wait that was the av? Christ
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Mar 28, 2023 01:53
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Enigma89 posted:I disagree with this post. D&D has been way less funny over the last few years. poo poo posting is amazing and I miss it dearly. If I want to read something academic then I will read an article written by an actual expert. Isn't C-SPAM explicitly there for shitposting? Why does D&D need to allow that? Just go to C-SPAM. We don't need two forums that do the same thing. Also hi, I also stopped posting here and retreated to Discord for more or less the exact reasons Rosalind elucidated. I don't have any particular expertise or anything, but I enjoyed how this forum was from roughly 2015-2020, though with diminishing returns pretty much every month right around the time Covid started popping off in late 2018. I had some really great conversations here and learned a lot. My political beliefs would be significantly more ignorant and lovely today without the D&D of old. Then it got too belligerent and toxic to tolerate. Based on reading this feedback thread and a bit of lurking and taking into account my own experiences, I would say that Koos and Cinci are doing good work. I'm still not in a hurry to come back to this forum, but it at least sounds like a place I might be willing to give another chance eventually. Stay the course.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:00
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Enigma89 posted:I disagree with this post. D&D has been way less funny over the last few years. poo poo posting is amazing and I miss it dearly. If I want to read something academic then I will read an article written by an actual expert. But politics funny poo poo posting exists in many other places on this website? Why does it have to be in D&D? Still nobody has explained this. (At least one person has said that D&D is only shitposts!)
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Mar 28, 2023 02:02
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fez_machine posted:I looked and as representative example: I was on the other side of the conversation and agree with this. I mean if it was a poo poo post then it was mild enough that I didn't even notice TBH.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:04
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So I don't have any opinion on the current state of moderationin regards to Ukraine or USCE because I don't read those very much. The smaller threads that I do read - politoons, right wing media, Freepers, Jan 6th, "ills of social media" are all actually chugging along very well largely because there isn't much debate going on inside of them; they're places for people to share news about stupid happenings and stupid propaganda and point at a joint enemy (MAGAs, Elon Musk, political cartoonists) and roll our eyes and mock them, so they go very well. I dropped out of USCE because of exactly what Rosalind is talking about - I'm not a SME or anyone whose opinion has any weight, but jesus those places get stupid mean because some posters want to take out their frustrations on the thread at large or at other posters that they've decided are stand-ins for the other side (liberals, tankies, whatever). They starts screaming and hollering about mod oppression and mods taking sides when the mods are mostly enforcing civility, and then a bunch of people on their side start yelling because how can you possibly be civil to liberals/tankies/whatever. Maybe that's better under the new rules? Maybe the worst offenders of the 'posting is praxis' posters finally gave up and left, hallelujah? I don't know. I don't have advice. I mostly dropped into this thread to prognosticate doom and gloom and misery for the D&D mods and admins. Specifically - and you can ask Fritz about this, he's seen the numbers - D&D saw a massive increase in posting and number of posters in 2016 when Donald Trump got into the race. This was after CSPAM was open, mind you; and it stayed that much more trafficed through 2020. We had maybe 5 - 10 times as many people posting in 2016 as we did in 2012. All signs right now point to Trump running again and Trump winning the nomination, which means D&D is going to likely see a lot more traffic because people's first response to "wow politics is getting big" seems to be "maybe D&D can explain what's going on". I know the site has overall lost traffic and all that, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see doubling or tripling of posting in this forum next year as the primaries start. So my biggest pieces of feedback is, get more mods and get them soon.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:06
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Sanguinia posted:Isn't C-SPAM explicitly there for shitposting? Why does D&D need to allow that? Just go to C-SPAM. We don't need two forums that do the same thing. I did not know about C-SPAM. I will check it out, thank you.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:06
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Enigma89 posted:I did not know about C-SPAM. I will check it out, thank you. lol
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Mar 28, 2023 02:09
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The culture difference between d&d , cspam and gbs was as follows. Gbs is for mainstream opinion and low effort poo poo posting. Cspam is for non mainstream low effort poo poo posting D&D (of the past) was where minimal effort and poo poo posting from all viewpoints was allowed. The unofficial rule was being a dick was fine if it was funny. Now D&D is for low effort serious posting of a specific range of liberal ideology only, no funny allowed.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:09
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fez_machine posted:But politics funny poo poo posting exists in many other places on this website? Why does it have to be in D&D? it's not that D&D has to be one way or the other. if people want to post informed, longform content and discuss it in a level headed way, they will do so here. or in the other dedicated subforum for this kind of posting which is long dead people simply don't want to do that. they want to post casually. we can observe this by seeing how often people post casually vs. how often they post formally. trying to go too hard on formal posts at the expense of casual posts is likely to just lead to less posts and posters over time. the introduction of stricter rules has lead to a slowing of post generation in this forum - which i think is a good thing! but it's not like we're going to hit some critical point of rules enforcement after which a thousand essays will bloom. people just dont post that kind of stuff here as much and i dont see any way you can force that to happen by tinkering with moderation policy or how adjusting how a subforum is marketed to a declining userbase
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Mar 28, 2023 02:10
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Koos Group posted:Proof by contradiction doesn't run afoul of that guideline as long as you clearly state that is what you're doing, so that your line of logic can be followed and addressed by other posters. Koos Group posted:
How can you have a dozen subsections of heavy-handed rules to make this a serious debate space, and then let people break them when you personally think it's funny, and still expect this to be treated as the serious subforun. Like I know this is a comedy website that has always had comedy exceptions to its few rules (and that has its own problems), but that's not going to work with a zero-tolerance policy on jokes. When people see mockery and trolling and sarcasm going on endorsed by the mods, while they get punished for minor infractions (or majorly punished for simply joining in on the behavior you've endorsed), are they going to stick around. Who wants to post somewhere they have to follow a bunch of debate club rules while other people get to troll the discussion.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:13
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skeleton warrior posted:So my biggest pieces of feedback is, get more mods and get them soon. Thinking about this post and the upcoming… This is probably spot on and a really good idea.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:13
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:it's not that D&D has to be one way or the other. if people want to post informed, longform content and discuss it in a level headed way, they will do so here. or in the other dedicated subforum for this kind of posting which is long dead Can you please stop acting like you know what everyone wants for D&D? This is at least the second post you've made where you make the claim "people want X" or "people don't want X". People want different things, not just the things that you want.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:15
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Kalit posted:Can you please stop acting like you know what everyone wants in a subforum? This is at least the second post you've made where you say "people want X" or "people don't want X". People want different things, not just the things that you want. well the one thing i've most consistently said is that people want to argue
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Mar 28, 2023 02:16
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I also don’t think probations are as ideologically driven as is sometimes claimed. Like, Discendo Vox gets hit semi-regularly, as did Evilweasel when they posted in D&D a few years back. I just don’t think that “don’t be a dick” is, or should be, an insurmountable ideological barrier to posting.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:17
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The culture difference between d&d , cspam and gbs was as follows. Are there any recent examples you can think of where someone was banned for effort posting, posting outside of a specific range of liberal ideology, or being funny? I don't follow every thread in D&D, but I can't think of a single one that I do where that is constantly happening.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:19
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:No, someone purchased an avatar that was a pic him in real life from his job or something. The culprit was never identified because the avatar purchase system is anonymous. They were able to confirm I didn't buy it for myself to own my posting enemies, though!
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Mar 28, 2023 02:25
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:D&D (of the past) was where minimal effort and poo poo posting from all viewpoints was allowed. The unofficial rule was being a dick was fine if it was funny. Some of My first posts in D&D were about Iran and nuclear reactors. I was just out of the Academy with a fresh marine engineering systems major, nuclear systems minor. Got into pretty hard with Cefte over very technical proliferation stuff. He was quoting papers, I was quoting Nuclear Reactor Engineering. Ultimately he was correct. I’ve always been able to count on this forum to tell me I’m wrong, often angrily. I think you are mischaracterizing it. The D&D tone wasn’t about being funny dicks.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:31
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one thing that's often lost in discussions about what D&D is vs. what it should be is that it is a very international userbase you don't hear much from the regional threads because they're mostly chill doing their own thing, it's US politics that both demands and results in the most moderation. but, for example, the UKMT gets a similar number of posts per day to US CE. by comparison, CSPAM is more US-centric. edit: D&D also, in my experience, has a lot of users that sort of come-and-go. every time there's a major current event (like a war in Ukraine) or a big election, the subforum gets a surge of activity. GBS and CSPAM do too, but it's far larger in D&D. for the ~month or so after the invasion of Ukraine last year, D&D had more than 1,000 people viewing and CSPAM was at like 700. then it died back down to our more typical 200-300. some of those users stuck around, most didn't. I am very skeptical of the idea that D&D readership is shrinking in any meaningful way, at least in the time I've been a mod and paying attention. it's about the same as it always has been, it just shifts over time. I think part of this is also that D&D isn't an entire "ecosystem" like CSPAM is -- CSPAM has its own video game thread, its own parenting thread, etc. The D&D community is much looser, there's less socializing.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:38
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That's my big-picture take: D&D is very international and it's also a "go-to" information source for many goons that don't read it regularly but drop by when there are major events or US elections. Both of those things are worth keeping in mind when thinking about the direction of the forum.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:48
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Some of My first posts in D&D were about Iran and nuclear reactors. I was just out of the Academy with a fresh marine engineering systems major, nuclear systems minor. Got into pretty hard with Cefte over very technical proliferation stuff. He was quoting papers, I was quoting Nuclear Reactor Engineering. Ultimately he was correct. Going way back to look up random US politics threads from like 2010 and even the election runup of 2012 this seems accurate. There's light stuff and jokes, probably more than in current D&D, but there seem to be decidedly fewer vitriolic shitposts and zingers used in place of actual arguments than the last few years have seen. I haven't even seen a single person back then charge in to snidely rehash a grudge they had in a different thread. It's mostly discussion, explanation of topics for people unfamiliar with them, and relatively civil debate. I mean, the sample size is still low since I don't have that kind of time, but I don't really ever remember D&D's vibe as being "casual funny shitposts but on political topics." GBS had a fair share of that when I was new here and CSPAM did later, but it was never much D&D's niche even when there were fewer rigorous rules about it.
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Mar 28, 2023 02:56
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:No, someone purchased an avatar that was a pic him in real life from his job or something. The culprit was never identified because the avatar purchase system is anonymous. This is super gross. And really sad that this kind of behavior happens. Do the mods of the forum feel that D&D should include or allow poo poo posting or poo poo posting if it's funny? While it's still a comedy forum there is a sub-forums GBS and CSPAM. It's not like people can't have their fun elsewhere.
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Mar 28, 2023 03:02
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Do the mods of the forum feel that D&D should include or allow poo poo posting or poo poo posting if it's funny? While it's still a comedy forum there is a sub-forums GBS and CSPAM. It's not like people can't have their fun elsewhere. In my experience, this does not happen often. Most posts that clearly break the forum rules are not funny, or at least not funny enough to save it. I did choose to invoke the humor exception once on a report last week (a mostly harmless post, not disruptive), but before that, it had been a while.
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Mar 28, 2023 03:13
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:This is super gross. And really sad that this kind of behavior happens. Most of the time, when someone tries to do "funny" shitposting in D&D, they're either regurgitating tired jokes they saw on @lib_destroyer_420's Twitter feed, or belting out incomprehensible in-jokes that no one will understand unless they've been reading a specific politics thread consistently for at least three years. That said, it's not like telling jokes is completely verboten in D&D, you just have to tack them onto a post that's otherwise worth reading.
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Mar 28, 2023 03:25
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Now D&D is for low effort serious posting of a specific range of liberal ideology only, no funny allowed. One of the big issues is that rational discourse with divergent views in the politcal sphere has completely and utterly lost their loving minds in the last 6 years - both left and right but most especially the right. D&D being a more narrow set of sane or at worst vagely sane politcal views is an unfortunate side effect
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Mar 28, 2023 03:33
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gurragadon posted:If you split people into different threads when there are different perspectives on an issue that is just further splitting any community that has formed. A community isn't always in agreement but a Debate and Discussion forum worth anything always has threads where people are being challenged to think about new things. To be clear, I would not be splitting a thread based on different perspectives. As you say, that would defeat the point of debate and discussion. The division would be to facilitate discussion with a different focus. For example, if you believe anthropomorphizing AI is justified, or it isn't, both of those perspective would be welcome in the same thread (the philosophical one). As for subjective criteria for moderation, it is sometimes necessary. A goal of D&D's is to have interesting discussion, and "interesting" is not an objective category. We have rules that can be enforced objectively to support this end, but human judgement is still required in some cases.
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Mar 28, 2023 03:44
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