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AnoHito posted:If anything, I would definitely lean towards The Dark One being all in on the plan. It’s his plan to begin with, after all. Yeah I'm leaning that way too. If TDO tells Redcloak to ditch the plan in order to go with the gods's plan and then Redcloak rejects that and falls, I'm not sure what that would actually accomplish. It's not like they have a replacement cleric to make TDO's high priest nearby. Clerics who can cast level 9 spells aren't very common, let alone goblin ones. It just means both plans are off the table and then ??? However if he sees that TDO is planning to just destroy everything out of spite or whatever that might actually force him to reconsider his choices for once.
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Mar 30, 2023 21:25
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The dark one and his motives being crucial and not foreshadowed at all would feel like an "unfair" twist. One that surprises the reader just to surprise the reader. In both public comics and the books, I think we have had all of two real lines of dialogue from him. It's just not enough for this hypothetical twist to feel good.
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Mar 30, 2023 22:11
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If anything itd continue the trend of the gods being little more than cosmic dumbasses
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Mar 30, 2023 22:13
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Clarste posted:Rich literally already did that when Miko lost her paladin powers. Redcloak himself has also mentioned that he assumes his god approves as long as he keeps getting spells every day. It wouldn't be coming out of nowhere at all. A big difference is that basically concluded her arc. More significantly the God's very loudly made their discontent with her actions known, and immediately so. Redcloak has gotten no such feedback, and I think sitting down to pray and without fanfare not getting his spells lots refreshed isn't really on the same level. I think an important point though is he also didn't succeed at killing Durkon, that door isn't closed.
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Mar 30, 2023 22:52
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I think the real twist would probably be along the lines of his assumption is wrong, his spell slots have nothing to do with his god's approval of him.
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Mar 30, 2023 22:57
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Goes back to earlier with the AI comparison, could be interesting if without a clear break with his Ethos, TDO can't really do anything to influence the outcome. But I feel like if TDO really wanted to he could find a way of informing TDO? I know at one point Thor was trying to let Roy know via the Thunderstorm that Nokrun wasn't Durkon? But I think each time Durkon managed to talk to Thor it was because he was dead or via a spell? I wonder if Redcloak just never attempted to contact TDO outside of his rituals for getting spellslots and TDO might never have been able to send a word, but again I think there's gotta be a way a god can get a message to their high priest of all people if needed? Like via a Planar being?
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Mar 30, 2023 23:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:Goes back to earlier with the AI comparison, could be interesting if without a clear break with his Ethos, TDO can't really do anything to influence the outcome. But I feel like if TDO really wanted to he could find a way of informing TDO? I know at one point Thor was trying to let Roy know via the Thunderstorm that Nokrun wasn't Durkon? But I think each time Durkon managed to talk to Thor it was because he was dead or via a spell? Nah, it's likely an intentional lack of communication. Because if he had anything more pertinent to say, he wouldn't have had Jirix's only message for Redcloak be "Don't screw this up". Unless Jirix was lying but that seems extremely unlikely. Not saying it's meaningful or anything. But TDO definitely had an opportunity to pass some kind of info to Redcloak if that was his intention. Even if it was something like hey call me you jerk. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Mar 30, 2023 |
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Mar 30, 2023 23:07
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I wonder if Tiamat is somehow interfering as well, like he's been imprisoned by the IFC or something.
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Mar 30, 2023 23:17
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JuniperCake posted:Yeah I'm leaning that way too. If TDO tells Redcloak to ditch the plan in order to go with the gods's plan and then Redcloak rejects that and falls, I'm not sure what that would actually accomplish. It's not like they have a replacement cleric to make TDO's high priest nearby. Clerics who can cast level 9 spells aren't very common, let alone goblin ones. It just means both plans are off the table and then ??? Believing that the goblin cause is just, Durkon becomes a priest of TDO.
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Mar 30, 2023 23:23
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JuniperCake posted:Nah, it's likely an intentional lack of communication. Because if he had anything more pertinent to say, he wouldn't have had Jirix's only message for Redcloak be "Don't screw this up". Unless Jirix was lying but that seems extremely unlikely. I don't think the Dark One can communicate directly with Redcloak. According to Start of Darkness, Redcloak was just an acolyte of The Dark One when he inherited the Crimson Mantle because almost everyone in his village was killed. He's never had to forge the connection to their diety that actual priesthood wound confer. Redcloak's got the Crimson Mantle artifact, and it gave him the knowledge, and the mission, and according to the wiki, he's managed to keep the cloak for about as long as all previous bearers combined. The Dark One probably would prefer a Bearer of the Crimson Mantle that he could talk to. But there no guarantee that they'd be as capable as Redcloak apparently is, and Redcloak has gotten him far closer to his goal than any previous bearer. So it's mostly hands off and watch, and see how far this goes.
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Mar 31, 2023 01:31
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Can TDO give Redcloak a warning shot across the bow? Maybe only refresh half his spell slots? It's not direct communication but it means Redcloak would need to figure out what that means and allows for him to misunderstand and cling to The Plan in an unhealthy way. Also would Redcloak sacrifice Oona and her village in order to maintain the plan? Like maybe Oona decides she wants to hear out the Order, or Xykon gets bored and decides to kill some villagers and Redcloak lets him because Xykon is more useful to the plan?
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Mar 31, 2023 01:55
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Raenir Salazar posted:Goes back to earlier with the AI comparison, could be interesting if without a clear break with his Ethos, TDO can't really do anything to influence the outcome. But I feel like if TDO really wanted to he could find a way of informing TDO? I know at one point Thor was trying to let Roy know via the Thunderstorm that Nokrun wasn't Durkon? But I think each time Durkon managed to talk to Thor it was because he was dead or via a spell? Even when Durkon tries to contact Thor, it's not like he always (or even usually) gets an answer. It's not till he died that he actually got this mission from Thor, despite the fact that Thor seems to have known about the Dark One's purple quiddity for a while. Which I think goes to suggest that he can't intervene so easily, even just with words. If he could send Durkon a message at any time, it wouldn't have made a lot of sense for him to have waited so long to tell Durkon "hey, if you could negotiate with Redcloak rather than killing him, that would be really nice". Durkon's spent the entire comic on a quest to beat Team Evil, and while Thor couldn't tell him about anything Snarl-related until he found out on his own, the Order's been on the same battlefield as Team Evil at least twice since they learned about the Snarl.
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Mar 31, 2023 03:52
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ikanreed posted:The dark one and his motives being crucial and not foreshadowed at all would feel like an "unfair" twist. One that surprises the reader just to surprise the reader. Not necessarily. It’s just another thing for Red Cloak to react to. At the end of the day the Dark One is just another event to inform Red Cloak’s character arc. It’s not ABOUT them.
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Mar 31, 2023 05:46
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I don't think any of the current plans are going to work, at least not for a while, because we still don't know what the deal is with the world inside the rift. I could see the next story arc involving the cast being dragged inside the last gate and learning more about the destroyed pantheon and maybe even encountering Kraagor, as he's not shown dying in the original flashback (unlike Soon's wife). Whatever plans the Order of the Stick or Xykon's crew have can be undone by the IFCC, who still have two uses of V's soul left, so there is an easy way for Rich to prolong the conflict and keep the story going. I think there are still a few too many loose ends for this to be the real endgame for the series.
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Mar 31, 2023 10:52
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Mniot posted:When? Are you talking about Durkon? Because the deal he offered was that Redcloak give up all leverage against the gods and release all slaves in exchange for Durkon to help open negotiations with humans and elves (and explicitly not with the gods). Durkon, being a mortal, cannot promise negotiations with the gods. He cannot MAKE the gods do anything. He's only even speaking for one of them and there are a bunch with different values and opinions. Any such promises he made to the effect of "I can make all the gods negotiate with your god" would have been an obvious lie, and insulting to boot. Along those lines, Durkon cannot promise good behavior from all mortals and a complete and total end to anti-goblin prejudice and hostilities. This wasn't even a final negotiation of terms, this was just an opening "are you open to negotiation" meeting. Durkon offered what he could promise, which was recognition of land from the Azurites. The Azurites would be far less likely to accept an offer of "you get nothing, the goblins keep their lands, their slaves, and you have to recognize that as legitimate." Durkon could have taken even a rough agreement on that to Thor, who could then use that to negotiate with the other gods, but only Thor can do that, Durkon can't.
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Mar 31, 2023 14:20
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Durkon, being a mortal, cannot promise negotiations with the gods. He cannot MAKE the gods do anything. He's only even speaking for one of them and there are a bunch with different values and opinions. Any such promises he made to the effect of "I can make all the gods negotiate with your god" would have been an obvious lie, and insulting to boot. While technically true, it's not a particularly distinct restriction from what all officially appointed diplomats face. They all represent a power who has granted them some authority to speak for them, but lack any personal ability to guarantee their promises.
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Mar 31, 2023 14:45
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ikanreed posted:While technically true, it's not a particularly distinct restriction from what all officially appointed diplomats face. They all represent a power who has granted them some authority to speak for them, but lack any personal ability to guarantee their promises. That's not a bad analogy, but I'll a clarify a point. It is like being a diplomat, but a diplomat can only speak for one nation. Am ambassador for the United States can speak for the United States, but it cannot speak and make promises for what Canada, the UK, Australia, etc... will do. Durkon is speaking for Thor and he is making a promise about what Thor will do. He cannot make that promise on behalf of all the other deities - at least not immediately, because of this one meeting - and that's what Redcloak wants.
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Mar 31, 2023 17:26
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:That's not a bad analogy, but I'll a clarify a point. That's correct. Even if Redcloak were to trust Durkon and Thor implicitly, which he does not, he also knows that the Gods absolutely do not get along and he needs complete agreement from all of them.
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Mar 31, 2023 17:45
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Shugojin posted:That's correct. Even if Redcloak were to trust Durkon and Thor implicitly, which he does not, he also knows that the Gods absolutely do not get along and he needs complete agreement from all of them. Yeah, and he's right not to trust them. Durkon and Roy and a good portion of the order don't trust them to act in the mortal's best interests either at this point for that matter. They know they are on their own and the only kind of solutions they can reasonably pursue are ones they make happen themselves. So Thor's plan is pretty much doomed to fail from the start really. TDO's opinion is still important though because as others have mentioned that's going to have some impact with Redcloak and change him in some way when they do eventually talk. That's true even if TDO disowns him as a cleric. Redcloak will still likely have some role to play using his own talents. To support or oppose whatever secret third thing the order has to come up with to actually deal with the Snarl (and also probably the gods too in some way).
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Mar 31, 2023 18:23
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I think there's a 0% chance of TDO punishing Redcloak for not negotiating with Durkon - not this close to achieving the plan's objectives.Shugojin posted:That's correct. Even if Redcloak were to trust Durkon and Thor implicitly, which he does not, he also knows that the Gods absolutely do not get along and he needs complete agreement from all of them. Which is why I rebutted Minot's denial of the premise that Redcloak wasn't interested in negotiating further. This was the first attempt at negotiating, and Redcloak's initial position at this time was "promise me all gods on board right now or I implode you." Redcloak was asking for something he knew Durkon couldn't deliver - certainly not that that moment. JuniperCake posted:Yeah, and he's right not to trust them. Durkon and Roy and a good portion of the order don't trust them to act in the mortal's best interests either at this point for that matter. They know they are on their own and the only kind of solutions they can reasonably pursue are ones they make happen themselves. So Thor's plan is pretty much doomed to fail from the start really.. That may not be wrong, but here's the thing: whether or not Redcloak thinks he can trust them, in terms of the ones who can best effect change across the entire world, the other gods are the only game in town. Redcloak refuses to negotiate with the gods - and then what? His only option is to continue to pursue the plan. Something's got to give - either Redcloak's stubbornness, or the fabric of the world.
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Mar 31, 2023 23:13
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:
That's fair but what makes that a bit tricky is the gods can't fix the goblin's situation even if they wanted to because of the rules they have to hold themselves by. Thor said they can't make significant changes to a world in progress. And who even knows what the next world will be like. Maybe they could do it by consensus but that seems to be a tall order. So it's still up to the mortals to do something here. Though the Snarl itself is also a powerful entity that can effect change on the level of the gods. But a lot of what can be done with that depends on what it's motives actually are. The gods say it's intelligent, and for some reason it's co-existing with an intact world (it might even be protecting it). So there's something up with that and the answers to that whole thing might lead the way to some new solution. One that doesn't depend on the gods reaching some sort of consensus. There's enough pieces on the board that it's still a possibility anyways. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 00:14
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There's not really any "situation" that wold be fixable by the gods to Redcloak's satisfaction. Durkon offers to discuss material conditions (which apparently was The Dark One's primary concern when he was mortal), but Redcloak dismisses it in favor of some abstract ideas about "equality" that he probably doesn't really care for any more than he cares about any actual goblins over the idea of goblins. Redcloak doesn't want peace with humans or the ability to freely associate with humans. He could get that if he wanted easy. He wants the idea of humans and all the other races somehow acknowledging goblins. But acknowledging them as what is never clear either. Durkon was maybe being weird when he kept asking for clarifications for "equality", but it does really encapsulate the whole problem with Redcloak not actually having any clear goals. He definitely doesn't want any goblin-instigated violence to stop. All the "equality" stuff is probably some bit of The Dark One's scripture that he never really gave much thought to. Although honestly if I was predicting where Redcloak's path is gonna lead, I think it's more likely that despite all his scheming, he'll end up getting bested by Xykon anyways. And it won't be something grand and amazing like Xykon out-scheming him or having known Redcloak's plans all along, it'll just be something simple like a moment's gut intuition toppling Redcloak's house of cards, or maybe just Xykon finds the one last thing Redcloak values to annoy him just enough to make him break. Maybe Xykon just drops that he tracked down Redcloak's niece a while back to kill off the rest of his family for fun. Redcloak has never done any serious self-examination aside from slightly broadening his personal defintions of goblinkind. He's mentally capable of thinking it out, he just never bothered to try. He's too busy having been right all along to think about it. The Dark One having to formally decree that Redcloak hosed up seems like too awkward of a way to do it when Redcloak already has plenty of chickens to come home to roost.
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Apr 1, 2023 06:21
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Yeah the Goblinoids are not supposed to have any real disadvantage in theory. They were not singled out by the gods. They have the ways to get what they want already.
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Apr 1, 2023 07:22
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SlothfulCobra posted:Although honestly if I was predicting where Redcloak's path is gonna lead, I think it's more likely that despite all his scheming, he'll end up getting bested by Xykon anyways. I dunno how likely it is, but this is what I absolutely want to happen just because I like Xykon. Such a fun villain.
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Apr 1, 2023 07:30
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MonsterEnvy posted:Yeah the Goblinoids are not supposed to have any real disadvantage in theory. They were not singled out by the gods. They have the ways to get what they want already. Well, the god that created them (Fenrir, I believe?) got bored and abandoned them, so that's probably a disadvantage they had.
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Apr 1, 2023 12:25
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Raenir Salazar posted:I know at one point Thor was trying to let Roy know via the Thunderstorm that Nokrun wasn't Durkon? I don't recall this? When was this?
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Apr 1, 2023 16:58
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https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.htmlhttps://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html
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Apr 1, 2023 17:04
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Parahexavoctal posted:I don't recall this? When was this? Around #950, on the way to the Godsmoot. Basically as soon as the airship entered into the Northern gods' territory, it was met by a nasty storm that significantly damaged the airship, which is why they had to make a pit stop in Tinkertown afterward. Belkar (and Durkon) thought that Nokrud would be unable to stop the storm, thus proving that he was no longer in Thor's good graces. There was never any absolute confirmation that the storm was sent by Thor to impede the Nokrud, but it certainly was quite a coincidence. In the end, though, it proved to be little more than an opportunity for Nokrud to teach Durkon why the gods can't declare things immune to cleric magic.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:12
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But the fact that he used a weather control spell instead of praying to Thor was also a sign something was wrong, since there was that time that he surrendered to Miko because it was raining.Clarste posted:Well, the god that created them (Fenrir, I believe?) got bored and abandoned them, so that's probably a disadvantage they had. We don't really know what that entails though. They'd presumably be just as capable of initiating clerics and worshipping any available gods in return for miracles as any other race. We can make guesses at what the gods may have provided for the other races at the beginning that they might not have for goblins, but we don't really know anything. It could've been something as complex as pre-building big cities for the non-monster races and allotting them specific lands, or it could be something as basic as Fenrir never teaching the goblins agriculture so it wouldn't matter how fertile their lands were anyways. We have two separate accounts for the goblins' creation, as either the "good" gods conspiring to create weaker "evil" targets for leveling up, or as the "evil" gods just incidentally out of stupdity and carelessness creating weaker targets that would be convenient for the "good" gods to take advantage of. The latter seems more probable because it came direct from a god rather than thirdhand from scripture, but it's also likely not the full story.
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Apr 1, 2023 18:04
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I think its like how in mythology there's entire epics about the ways gods help or hinder their worshippers. For example, Japan's mythology being that the gods raised the islands of Japan from the sea; the goblin's not having a divine benefactor means no in this example, islands to develop and live peacefully. Or, to use another analogy, Yahweh being able to send a prophet to lead his chosen people to freedom from enslavement. The goblins having to wait a few thousand years before they got their own god meant losing out on all of the divine boons (or more calculated perils and trials to force growth) that all the other peoples got.
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Apr 1, 2023 18:29
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Also explicitly Fenrir’s lack of attention manifests as resource poor lands for the goblins.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:02
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Yeah when Fenrir created Goblins, he then decided to create something else like Minotaurs. Were as dwarfs were created, then they were given mountain homes, and other things to help them grow. The goblins could have gotten lucky and taken someone elses stuff for themselves early on, but did not succeed.
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Apr 1, 2023 20:46
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I don't think the god's intent matters as much as the results. No one in comic seems to debate whether the goblins were truly disadvantaged or not, Thor himself accepts that as a given. Fenrir messed up but he's likely not the first nor last god to do so in all the countless worlds they've made. And we've seen how mortal races can suffer as a result like with the goblins. Even Thor only now cares about the goblins because of TDO's potential in sealing the snarl. He had no qualms with ordering his followers to kill goblins before. His first response to TDO was to try to smite him. So it's not like the good gods have nothing to do with this either. Like Durkon said it pretty plainly, mortals are cattle for the gods. And while Thor and presumably many other deities care about their creations it doesn't mean they always act in their best interests. The gods seem more interested in exploring fun wacky world concepts and playing games with evil gods vs good gods rather than you know building a nice world that's not lovely for mortals to live in. So you can't just blame this all on Fenrir, it's more a problem with the relationship mortals have with the gods in general that lets this kind of thing happen. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 23:19
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 https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1279.htmlsurely the big emphasis of the cauldron and the memory talk is coincidental.
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Apr 27, 2023 16:03
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Noah posted:
Oh man, I bet she modified her own memory to forget the actual state of the final dungeon and remembers only the stasis traps. That way if she ever reveals the secret, it's the wrong secret.
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Apr 27, 2023 16:08
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50 years worth of poop coming out of stasis is a Chekov’s Gun I’m not sure needs to come back again, but I trust Rich
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Apr 27, 2023 16:22
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Thaddius the Large posted:50 years worth of poop coming out of stasis is a Chekov’s Gun I’m not sure needs to come back again, but I trust Rich I don't think digestive processes continue during stasis. How would the monster eat?
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Apr 27, 2023 16:31
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Suspended animation definitely implies that biological processes would be fully well, suspended.
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Apr 27, 2023 16:44
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It's like when animals wake from hibernation, the first thing they do is poop.
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Apr 27, 2023 16:45
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That stasis thing screams plot point.
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Apr 27, 2023 16:50
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