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I agree with the general sentiment here. The way the human characters react to the war really doesn't seem to be t in line with the fact that they were facing a total annihilation. Like, even if there weren't too many causalities, because the Minbari went straight for Earth, you'd think that the overwhelming might of the Minbari would leave more of a physiological issue, at least among the military cast members. But the whole way the war is presented throughout the show is a little silly and contradictory. The initial idea seems to be that the Minbari steamrolled past every colony and outpost to go straight for Earth and that Sheridan was basically the only one who ever manged to destroy an Minbari starship. However we do get scenes like the bunker scene mentioned or when Clark send some black ops troops to assassinate Delene and Sherdian, they discuss how they fought and tortured Minbari during the war, which makes only sense if there where several ground engagements. I also find the idea that the Minbari only ever lost a single ship pretty stupid. e X fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Apr 4, 2023 |
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Apr 4, 2023 19:03
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e X posted:
We know they lost other ships, we see them get taken out by kamikaze attacks in In The Beginning. Sheridan's just the only one who managed to kill one and survive.
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Apr 4, 2023 19:13
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I absolutely love how the Minbari are outraged about the Black Star. It's entirely on-brand for space elfs. The Minbari, especially the warrior caste, feel they are superior in every way to the other races. Culturally. Technologically. Morally. They are the peak of the younger races, and they know it. Then some upstart space orc of a human dares to fight back, and he wins? Not just wins, but survives to tell the tale? This wasn't some heroic sacrifice. This wasn't some kamikaze, human wave attack like we saw in In the Beginning. This was one man who killed a whole shipful of Minbari with primitive tactics and technology. Of course they're going to hate that guy. Of course they're going to talk poo poo about his methods. The hubris of the warrior caste cannot abide such an insult! He didn't just break some taboo, he did the unthinkable and poked them right in their overinflated egos.
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Apr 4, 2023 19:31
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The Black Star is an example of how revenge is a dumb thing that nobody cares about how fair it is. It was a war, and the warrior caste got ENRAGED at the temerity of the humans to fight back.
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Apr 4, 2023 19:39
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I have started another rewatch. This time the remastered version (remasters came out like two days after i finished my rewatch). Im on episode 2 and i am amazed by the costumes. Londo and Delenn have such detailed coloutful ones. Even soulhunter has an impresive leather one.
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Apr 4, 2023 20:38
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As a military tale, the whole Earth-Minbari war just doesn't hold up. I always had the feeling that JMS only barely understood how the military functions and never let even that rudimentary knowledge get in the way of a good story.
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Apr 4, 2023 21:42
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Polaron posted:We know they lost other ships, we see them get taken out by kamikaze attacks in In The Beginning. Sheridan's just the only one who managed to kill one and survive. It was the biggest Minbari defeat and humanity's only really significant victory in space. The Warrior caste also outmatched humans one on one. But it wouldn't have taken three years to fight the war if it had been totally one sided. The Minbari were obviously being methodical and not leaving their backs insecure until they were ready to drive for Earth.
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Apr 4, 2023 21:58
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Jedit posted:It was the biggest Minbari defeat and humanity's only really significant victory in space. Except for the entire Dilgar War.
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Apr 4, 2023 22:09
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Zorak of Michigan posted:As a military tale, the whole Earth-Minbari war just doesn't hold up. I always had the feeling that JMS only barely understood how the military functions and never let even that rudimentary knowledge get in the way of a good story. Can you elaborate? Genuinely curious.
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Apr 4, 2023 22:13
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Zorak of Michigan posted:As a military tale, the whole Earth-Minbari war just doesn't hold up. I always had the feeling that JMS only barely understood how the military functions and never let even that rudimentary knowledge get in the way of a good story. This is basically all TV and movie science fiction. Some are marginally better if they make a concerted effort, but the needs of a show with a small group of characters who are consistently in focus and doing important things dramatically are impossible to square with actual military practices. It's just something you have to stop caring about as a viewer.
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Apr 4, 2023 22:39
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The Minbari didn’t completely ignore earth colonies during the war - they bombed and attacked lots of them. The Line happened when the Minbari decided to stop being slow and deliberate and actively chose to just go right past Proxmia, Io and Mars, and headed straight for Earth. But the war didn’t start with that.
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Apr 4, 2023 22:44
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Jedit posted:It was the biggest Minbari defeat and humanity's only really significant victory in space. The Warrior caste also outmatched humans one on one. But it wouldn't have taken three years to fight the war if it had been totally one sided. The Minbari were obviously being methodical and not leaving their backs insecure until they were ready to drive for Earth. I believe JMS said that it's not that Earthforce never destroyed any Minbari ships, it's just that they never got victories, with their engagements always ending up with more losses than the Minbari to a decisive degree. That tracks with the war taking three years, the Minbari had a clear technological and probably logistic advantage over Earth but not to the point that they could just ignore Earthforce and dive straight for Earth.
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Apr 4, 2023 22:57
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I think that the specifics of the Earth-Minbari War have always been in a state of flux. I'm pretty sure Sheridan is called the only human to ever destroy a Minbari ship during the war, and that the Black Star engagement took place in the Sol system, where Sheridan faked a distress call. This was changed to it being the only victory, and it took place outside Sol, with a genuine distress call (that was used as bait.) But also remember how Sinclair has no idea what the Minbari sign of respect is back in Season 1? I also think the death of Dukhat is initially called an accident which is... a not-quite-accurate description, I think. I do think the show wasn't very good about exploring the ramifications of the Earth-Minbari War, though. While the Minbari may not have killed as many civilians as they would have once they crushed Earthforce, the casualties still had to be immense given that the Battle of the Line involved only 1% of the people going up there returning. The figures given by the show (250,000 dead total over three years) seem like an incredible underestimation based on that battle alone. We're not even getting into like excess deaths from a break down in supply chains and so on. I think I've mentioned before that I would've liked to know what Clark was doing during the war. Basically every single human character we meet had to live through this war, having been taken to the execution block of the entire species, and then having the ax put aside at the last second. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 01:19
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Going back to the discussion about why B5 fans are so keen on new people coming into the show for a minute. There were a lot of good reasons cited, but one of the big ones that didn't come up was getting to read things like this:F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:2x07: A Race Through Dark Places
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Apr 5, 2023 02:58
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ultrafilter posted:Going back to the discussion about why B5 fans are so keen on new people coming into the show for a minute. There were a lot of good reasons cited, but one of the big ones that didn't come up was getting to read things like this: 
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Apr 5, 2023 03:03
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ultrafilter posted:Going back to the discussion about why B5 fans are so keen on new people coming into the show for a minute. There were a lot of good reasons cited, but one of the big ones that didn't come up was getting to read things like this: 
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Apr 5, 2023 03:38
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Small White Dragon posted:Can you elaborate? Genuinely curious. A lot of my concerns have already been brought up here. The Minbari are out to exterminate humans, right? Why would there been any ground combat on remote listening posts? The Minbari could destroy them from a distance and leave any survivors to starve or asphyxiate. The one that really gets me, though, is in season 4 when Sheridan discovers the Minbari command and control system on the eve of battle. He's about to command the largest fleet in history and they've never exercised with the actual systems they'll be using? Sheridan would have to be an idiot not to have done his homework in advance.
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Apr 5, 2023 04:17
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Zorak of Michigan posted:A lot of my concerns have already been brought up here. The Minbari are out to exterminate humans, right? Why would there been any ground combat on remote listening posts? The Minbari could destroy them from a distance and leave any survivors to starve or asphyxiate. The one that really gets me, though, is in season 4 when Sheridan discovers the Minbari command and control system on the eve of battle. He's about to command the largest fleet in history and they've never exercised with the actual systems they'll be using? Sheridan would have to be an idiot not to have done his homework in advance. I'm guessing the most fanatical of the Warrior Caste wanted to get hands-on and stuck-in as often as possible.
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Apr 5, 2023 04:21
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I think that the specifics of the Earth-Minbari War have always been in a state of flux. I'm pretty sure Sheridan is called the only human to ever destroy a Minbari ship during the war, and that the Black Star engagement took place in the Sol system, where Sheridan faked a distress call. This was changed to it being the only victory, and it took place outside Sol, with a genuine distress call (that was used as bait.) But also remember how Sinclair has no idea what the Minbari sign of respect is back in Season 1? I also think the death of Dukhat is initially called an accident which is... a not-quite-accurate description, I think. There's been some vagueness about this, so I checked the Script Books. "Points of Departure": "So I hit on the idea of mining the asteroid field between Earth and Mars. A fusion bomb doesn't need to lock onto anything, if it's close enough. It took out the Black Star and three of their heavy cruisers before they could escape..." And Delenn later says (in that speech) "Only one human captain has survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me..." "In the Beginning" has Sheridan as first officer in a damaged ship who drops three tactical nukes in an asteroid field and blows up only the Black Star. This was via distress call. We're also shown a bunch of EA officers watching footage of the combat. It's conceivable, I suppose, that Sheridan dropped more mines and destroyed additional ships. But it's just as likely that he's being inaccurate in describing what happened to Ivanova because it's otherwise a long story. Even Delenn's statement can't be quite right, unless no EA captain ever fled combat from a Minbari fleet. We do get multiple episodes where humans direct hatred towards Minbari, but they're overwhelmingly non-JMS episodes. "The War Prayer" and "Gropos" spring to mind as the best examples. There don't seem to be as many Minbari on B5 as some of the other races; if they tend to keep to themselves, that might have an effect, and as they're mostly religious caste that might make a difference, too. I'm hard-pressed to think of a comparable situation in human history. It's quite possible the majority of human beings had not (and still have not) met a Minbari face-to-face, either during or after the war.
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Apr 5, 2023 04:28
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Narsham posted:I'm hard-pressed to think of a comparable situation in human history. It's quite possible the majority of human beings had not (and still have not) met a Minbari face-to-face, either during or after the war. I was thinking about that aspect of it. A military coming from a faraway land, sweeping over a large area, going from victory to victory, leaving atrocities in their wake, then suddenly stopping and retreating due to unknown internal issues - reminds me of the Mongol invasion of Europe, really.
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Apr 5, 2023 04:40
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V-Men posted:Except for the entire Dilgar War. I thought it was obvious that I was talking about the Earth-Minbari War, but apparently not. E: F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I also really like the burgeoning relationship between Talia and Ivanova and the slow chipping away at Talia's confidence in the Corp. That's going to be an interesting thread to watch over the next couple of seasons. 
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Apr 5, 2023 10:40
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Jedit posted:I thought it was obvious that I was talking about the Earth-Minbari War, but apparently not. Sorry, didn't realize you meant the only victory during that war.
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Apr 6, 2023 07:40
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From the watchthread:F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:^ Cool! I feel like Bester is the Gul Dukat of B5. G'kar and Londo both have their stints as villains, but Bester is a villain all the way through, maybe briefly having a few sympathetic moments that you could question which way he'll go in the future, but never rising above that. One of those sympathetic moments being his illicit sexual affair with somebody who he had a huge amount of authority over. They also have a similar attitude of constant pained cheerfulness. Smiley villains. Simiar power differentials as they wrestle with the people running the station, although Bester never gets the upper hand like Dukat does. B5 never really has a moment where everything devolves into throwing around fireballs in hell, but I guess the standoff with Byron could've turned into that. I guess the biggest difference is that Bester is a genetic supremacist and a believer in eugenics, so even his affair is with an unregistered telepath, unlike Dukat who kept getting it off with Bajorans. As for DS9 similarities to Londo and G'kar, it doesn't ever go anywhere near as big with multi-episode character arcs, but maybe like Gowron and Damar have dynamics that you could compare where they go back and forth from being allies and enemies to the protagonists.
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Apr 7, 2023 21:15
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Dukat never had the sympathetic moment though. He was always an evil poo poo.
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Apr 7, 2023 21:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:From the watchthread: Well yes, but he genuinely did love her. That's why it was a sympathetic moment; he wasn't abusing his power for the relationship and he didn't have to. It was the same with the mundane woman he has a May-December relationship with in the Psi-Corps trilogy. When he's arrested everyone including her assumes that he mind controlled her into loving him. He didn't, but he lets them believe that he did because it will be easier on her if she thinks it wasn't her fault that she loved him. It's one of his few redeeming features - he's very genuine in the relationships that he's allowed to choose for himself.
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Apr 7, 2023 22:11
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CainFortea posted:Dukat never had the sympathetic moment though. He was always an evil poo poo. Yeah, but Marc Alaimo is a joy to watch. This is basically the same thing for some viewers.
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Apr 7, 2023 23:34
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And Dukat seemingly genuinely loved his daughter. There's some internal account of the showrunners having some idea to fully make Dukat a protagonist that you can see some of the writing waffling on him, especially in the parts of the show where he and Sisko were working together in the DMZ to ferret out Starfleet defectors and rival Cardasian factions. Technically we don't know everything about Dukat's relationships during the occupation, but in the show we only have Bester's word for his relationships as well. I have around as much trust in a dictator's ability to have a fair relationship with one of his subjects as I do that a high-powered cop could have a fair relationship with a perpetrator. An especially motivated cop who ritually murders people to prove his dedication to the cause.
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Apr 8, 2023 01:58
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SlothfulCobra posted:And Dukat seemingly genuinely loved his daughter. There's some internal account of the showrunners having some idea to fully make Dukat a protagonist that you can see some of the writing waffling on him, especially in the parts of the show where he and Sisko were working together in the DMZ to ferret out Starfleet defectors and rival Cardasian factions. Apparently they wanted to genuinely make him a love interest for Kira and that caused Nana Visitor to put her foot down, pointing out that it would be like a holocaust survivor falling in love with a member of Nazi leadership.
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Apr 8, 2023 02:57
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Polaron posted:Apparently they wanted to genuinely make him a love interest for Kira and that caused Nana Visitor to put her foot down, pointing out that it would be like a holocaust survivor falling in love with a member of Nazi leadership. Not to mention, from what I saw in the "What we leave Behind" 2018 documentary, apparently Marc Alaimo didn't have to work too hard to be a creeper.
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Apr 8, 2023 03:27
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CainFortea posted:Dukat never had the sympathetic moment though. He was always an evil poo poo. That didn't stop some of the audience from empathising with him so much that they had to turn him into a DBZ villain to get them to stop 
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Apr 8, 2023 11:12
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Knives was such a cool episode for the Centauri, it's a shame most of it never comes up again aside from Londo no longer trusting Refa. It would've made sense if some Centauri characters had some wicked dueling scars.
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Apr 15, 2023 20:37
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SlothfulCobra posted:It would've made sense if some Centauri characters had some wicked dueling scars. That might've almost been TOO German/Prussian
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Apr 15, 2023 23:13
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Polaron posted:That might've almost been TOO German/Prussian Just a bit. You don't find out much about Centauri dueling societies, but you get the impression that they're just modern fencing clubs with a lot of talk about honour and a few added excuses to get drunk. So you wouldn't see a coutari duelist with a facial scar, because a coutari duel that wasn't a rare death duel would be to first touch rather than first blood.
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Apr 15, 2023 23:42
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Polaron posted:We know they lost other ships, we see them get taken out by kamikaze attacks in In The Beginning. Sheridan's just the only one who managed to kill one and survive. I always figure the Minbari lie a lot, their pride gets to them really hard.
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Apr 16, 2023 01:45
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I said come in! posted:I always figure the Minbari lie a lot, their pride gets to them really hard. We're explicitly told that Minbari do not lie
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Apr 16, 2023 02:25
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Bursting into a murderous rage at being called a liar is raising a lot of questions already answered with my murderous rage.
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Apr 16, 2023 02:39
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Bursting into a murderous rage at being called a liar is raising a lot of questions already answered with my murderous rage.
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Apr 16, 2023 02:53
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Polaron posted:We're explicitly told that Minbari do not lie They tell a lot of half truths, though. Assume that everything a Minbari says is like Obi-Wan telling Luke that Vader killed Anakin.
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Apr 16, 2023 08:39
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Minbari lie to save face, and lying about the war to avoid embarrassment is something they would do.
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Apr 16, 2023 12:00
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Eighties ZomCom posted:Minbari lie to save face, and lying about the war to avoid embarrassment is something they would do. True, I'd forgotten that specifically they'll lie to save another Minbari face. But this being Minbari, they'd lie to save their caste face even though by extension it saves themselves face as well.
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Apr 16, 2023 12:08
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