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Splicer posted:A biologist who can understand threat signals would probably have lived longer yes. I'm not sure how much being a better archaeologist would have helped Shaw, but even in non-horror-film settings shooting electricity into one-of-a-kind biological artefacts until they explode is generally frowned upon these days. Splicer posted:So yes the words and deeds of the Prometheus crew are those of a science-themed clown car, but whether they're idiots in-fiction or if the reality of Prometheus considers these the actions of intelligent professionals is down to viewer interpretation. From star trek's tropes and conventions we know Kirk beaming down without a helmet isn't supposed to be indicative of any real ineptitude on his part, so is agitating a clearly aggressive unknown animal supposed to come across as stupid in Prometheusland or is this SOP and it's weird that it didn't work this time? In the first place this is just Prometheus "Kirk Drift". Even getting close to the mutant worm doesn't represent some kind of goofy clown routine for someone wearing a spacesuit that can withstand exposure to a storm of violent shrapnel who's addressing a creature that's about two or three fingers thick. Even if we ignore the fact that Milburn was A) trying to reassure his obviously-scared crush and B) high at the time, it would be stupid to imagine that a small-to-medium-sized snake can break your arm and puncture your armor in the space of seconds through main force. These guys aren't idiots; they just don't know they're in a horror movie. Similarly, you don't know what the machine Shaw was using is or how it normally operates on corpses which haven't been injected with the primordial alchemical change-agent. You're like, argh, if these characters had been smarter they wouldn't have triggered the mummy's curse! But actually it was precisely not believing in curses that got them into this predicament. HOWEVER. Let's say they are idiots, as you describe. Your approach to figuring out how and why remains completely bizarre and unworkable. There's no higher authority who can reassure you that your interpretation of the events onscreen is somehow correct or sanctioned. There's no "supposed to be". You can either support a conclusion with the courage of your convictions or shrug and give up out of lack of interest, but just because you, personally, can't figure out what's going on, that doesn't mean that-- hang on, let me see if I can dig a funny tweet I saw up. Okay, bad news, I can't find it, but it was a scene from Scarface with an overlay of an animated face and a sort of news ticker, and the news ticker was like "THESE ACTIONS ARE BAD, YOU SHOULD NOT IDOLIZE HIM" as he shot some guys with a machine gun. Media doesn't work that way.
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Apr 4, 2023 21:34
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banned from Starbucks posted:The shotgun shot blue poo poo didn't it? I ain't never seen no conventional blue ammo. I’d have to rewatch the scene. Fun bit of trivia - the WY “dog catchers” in Alien3 have all-black pulse rifles that sound different when fired. This isn’t an accident - they’re not firing explosive tipped ammo (as evidenced by Morse taking a round to the knee and it doesn’t blow his leg off), so the firing sounds different. The opening credits showing ‘Alien’-style cryotubes rather than the ones from ‘Aliens’ *is* a mistake though 
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Apr 4, 2023 21:41
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Ferrinus posted:In the first place this is just Prometheus "Kirk Drift". Even getting close to the mutant worm doesn't represent some kind of goofy clown routine for someone wearing a spacesuit that can withstand exposure to a storm of violent shrapnel who's addressing a creature that's about two or three fingers thick. Even if we ignore the fact that Milburn was A) trying to reassure his obviously-scared crush and B) high at the time, it would be stupid to imagine that a small-to-medium-sized snake can break your arm and puncture your armor in the space of seconds through main force. These guys aren't idiots; they just don't know they're in a horror movie. It is interesting watching people inadvertently agree with the line of reasoning that led to the "horror and sci-fi cannot overlap" tweet. "Fun Fact: The Blockbuster Video Store Handbook historically categorized Alien in the sci-fi section."
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Apr 4, 2023 21:53
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't only Holloway and Shaw referred to as doctors? That would be a strong indication that Fifeld and Milburn and the rest don't possess terminal degrees in their fields and aren't the most qualified scientists.
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Apr 4, 2023 22:18
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ruddiger posted:"Fun Fact: The Blockbuster Video Store Handbook historically categorized Alien in the sci-fi section." I was going to fact-check this because I worked for Blockbuster for 7 years but as I think back I think you’re right.
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Apr 4, 2023 22:29
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The assertion that Milburn didn’t understand the threat display is a grievous misinterpretation of the scene anyways. Milburn was deliberately provoking the snake to see what it would do, & demonstrate to Fifield that it couldn’t harm them.
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Apr 4, 2023 22:31
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Splicer's criticism of the exploding head scene is actually a great example of how Prometheus's "Kirk Drift" is caused by people missing or ignoring details because they're just looking for some sort of extra-diegetic confirmation of their preconceptions instead. In the actual scene, Shaw hooks the head up to some equipment to try to revivify it and therefore learn something about (perhaps even interact with...!) the engineers. The machine works, and the head actually does come back to life. However, its immediate affect is one of pain and horror, and we rapidly learn why: more and more of its white skin starts to blacken and bulge, presumably because it's been infected with the mutagenic goo that had a part in killing all the other engineers. The scientists realize what's going on and rapidly seal the head behind glass (or plastic or something) before it actually bursts. Notably, no one is hurt or infected, no vital resources are lost or damaged, etc. The entire experiment actually went as well as it could possibly go given that the engineer had already been slimed and was probably going to burst or liquefy or whatever regardless. At worst, we end up sharing in the characters' disappointment that they weren't able to learn much more beyond "drat, these guys got hosed". However, years of whining later, this scene gets transmuted into Shaw being like "wwoooOOOaaaAAAahh..!! 🤪🤪🤪" as she cranks a dial too far to the right and blows the head up the same way you might ruin some sausages in a microwave. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Apr 4, 2023 |
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Apr 4, 2023 22:43
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Xenomrph posted:Fun bit of trivia - the WY “dog catchers” in Alien3 have all-black pulse rifles that sound different when fired. This isn’t an accident - they’re not firing explosive tipped ammo (as evidenced by Morse taking a round to the knee and it doesn’t blow his leg off), so the firing sounds different. Noticed that from the first time I saw it but I had no idea that was intentional. Neat. … assuming it was intentional and not just a fan justification for why the production design is off
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Apr 4, 2023 22:53
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david_a posted:Noticed that from the first time I saw it but I had no idea that was intentional. Neat. The movie’s production was all over the place but I’ve heard it was intentional, but that’s also like 3rd-hand knowledge so take it with a grain of salt I guess.
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Apr 4, 2023 23:50
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Splicer posted:A biologist who can understand threat signals would probably have lived longer yes. I'm not sure how much being a better archaeologist would have helped Shaw, but even in non-horror-film settings shooting electricity into one-of-a-kind biological artefacts until they explode is generally frowned upon these days. I've gotten bitten by my own snake due to being drunk at the time and he was on space weed. I'd literally probably do the exact same thing as him in that situation and I've soberly freely been around everything from sharks to lions to gorillas in the wild. I would not survive Prometheus. Not a scientist, just an adventurer though, so I wouldn't be on the trip.
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Apr 5, 2023 00:04
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I am like 75% certain the other guy was the one on space weed but I'm open to being corrected that it was both of them. But also again maybe hotboxing your suit while wandering around an alien tomb on an unexplored, potentially inhabited extrasolar planet is itself an indicator of being a dumbfuck idiot who shouldn't be there. Fake edit: while trying to track down who was and was not stoned I found out that poor Milburn really got done dirty in rewrites.
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Apr 5, 2023 01:14
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Splicer posted:A biologist who can understand threat signals would probably have lived longer yes. I'm not sure how much being a better archaeologist would have helped Shaw, but even in non-horror-film settings shooting electricity into one-of-a-kind biological artefacts until they explode is generally frowned upon these days. Understanding and respecting are different things. I'd argue he had the former and not the latter.
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Apr 5, 2023 01:17
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Ferrinus posted:In the actual scene, Shaw hooks the head up to some equipment to try to revivify it and therefore learn something about (perhaps even interact with...!) the engineers. The machine works, and the head actually does come back to life. However, its immediate affect is one of pain and horror, and we rapidly learn why: more and more of its white skin starts to blacken and bulge, presumably because it's been infected with the mutagenic goo that had a part in killing all the other engineers. The scientists realize what's going on and rapidly seal the head behind glass (or plastic or something) before it actually bursts. Notably, no one is hurt or infected, no vital resources are lost or damaged, etc. The entire experiment actually went as well as it could possibly go given that the engineer had already been slimed and was probably going to burst or liquefy or whatever regardless. At worst, we end up sharing in the characters' disappointment that they weren't able to learn much more beyond "drat, these guys got hosed". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aenLQps2WTM It's exactly as I remembered it, and "wwoooOOOaaaAAAahh..!! 🤪🤪🤪" is an apt description for jamming an electrified probe into a disembodied head's brain to "trick the nervous system into thinking it's alive" mere seconds after opening the lid. I also rewatched the snake scene which was also as stupid as I remembered it and described it. This is not me "kirk drift"ing my memories, it's just me accurately recalling a film I didn't like. Dienes posted:Understanding and respecting are different things. I'd argue he had the former and not the latter.  that's fair
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Apr 5, 2023 01:33
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Splicer posted:This is... an extremely charitable reading of the below scene: Okay, but it worked. The probe tricked the nervous system into thinking it was alive, because the head really did come to life. Do you think the head specifically began to bulge and distend before exploding because of the electric probe? Is that, in your view, what electric current does? Cause corpses to explode? How much current would be required to literally detonate a human head, would you say? How do you know how much prep work and scanning they've done? (They certainly had enough to set all the equipment up and get into scrubs!) How do you know how their procedure works or how many times they've done it before? More to the point, what do you think they did wrong, and what negative consequences did they suffer for their mistake? Something you'll notice the more you actually pay attention to Prometheus is that even insofar as the scientists do something scientifically questionable, it A) comes from having a high level of trust in their gear and more importantly, B), actually works out perfectly fine most of the time. Noooo Charlie don't take your helmet off just because your scanners say the air's safe aaaargh don't do it! Oh, the air was in fact safe, silly me. quote:I also rewatched the snake scene which was also as stupid as I remembered it and described it. This is not me "kirk drift"ing my memories, it's just me accurately recalling a film I didn't like. As SMG writes, Milburn is actually demonstrating in the scene that the snake can't harm him, to Fifeld, who is irrationally scared of a very small creature. The reason that Fifeld's irrational fear proves out against Milburn's steely confidence is that the two men are characters in a horror movie. They have no way of knowing that a small snake can do what a storm of razor shrapnel can't. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 02:53
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I prefer my buddy's interpretation of the head scene: *gasp* "Their heads explode when you run an incredibly strong electric current through them - just like ours!!!"
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Apr 5, 2023 03:51
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This country executed over 4000 people via electrocution, less than 2% were considered “botched” and of those botched executions, some heads caught fire and sparked, none were recorded as exploding. But your friend is pretty hilarious!
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Apr 5, 2023 04:03
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I refuse to introduce facts and logic to a conversation I had over a few beers and a joint with a buddy while watching a mediocre Alien prequel and talking over the whole thing. The point is that it's a dumb scene.
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Apr 5, 2023 04:07
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Mister Speaker posted:I prefer my buddy's interpretation of the head scene: Look at this! Their head explosion predates ours!
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Apr 5, 2023 04:08
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ruddiger posted:This country executed over 4000 people via electrocution, less than 2% were considered “botched” and of those botched executions, some heads caught fire and sparked, none were recorded as exploding. When you realize that Prometheus exists in the same continuity as Mr. Death.
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Apr 5, 2023 04:14
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Just running 19th century Galvanics experiments on a giant head. Very advanced stuff. Ignore the MedBed
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Apr 5, 2023 04:17
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One occasion where an evil android would actually have been in the right. "Holy poo poo. The preserved head of an intelligent extraterrestrial. Possibly the most remarkable scientific discovery of all time. Now, what should we do with it?" "It has to go back, all sorts of tests have to be made..." [Bzzt crackle] "Yo, ah gawt Ol' Sparky all hooked up and ready ter probulate! Hyuk!" Edit: rewatched the scene, and it's under 30 seconds between removing the helmet and Shaw's "How about we zap its brain to trick it into coming to life?" The doctor should have gone "Yeah okay, Lara Croft, how about you wait over there and dust some clay pots?" Small Strange Bird fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 08:43
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, but it worked. The probe tricked the nervous system into thinking it was alive, because the head really did come to life. We know a lot more about the head scene than you're letting on. They've just finished scanning the head and discovered that it's in fact a head in a helmet rather than a head with an exoskeleton. They discover the new growth and then go straight to electrics in the brain. From "this is a helmet" to shock therapy in under a minute. It's also not what they do, it's what they don't do. They electrocuted its brain to provoke a response, presumably in the "new growth". You know what you do before you do an (insane) experiment? You take before samples. We know they didn't because we see the head the entire time. They pop the top vaguely, vaguely wave some tweezers and scrapers at it while continually backing off from actively using them, and then go full frankenstein. You don't try to "promote new growth" of an unknown life form out in the middle of the room, you put it in containment /first/ and then do it through a barrier. lol at their slow-rear end conveyor belt. You keep saying "they don't know they're in a horror film", as if their behaviour would make sense in everything that's not a horror film. You and SMG keep saying "kirk drift" to describe accurate (if humorous) descriptions of readily available scenes. This made me realise something: Shaw doesn't act like she's "not in a horror film", she acts like she's in a Kirk Drifted episode of Star Trek. She'd be duct taping dilithium crystals to the deflector dish before Scottie finished debriefing the captain. Put an extra few minutes in there of sampling, looking at the results, "oh hey these cells are alive!", and /then/ jam a cattle prod into the brain. You want to see Vickers sabotage things? Have her suggest they try "waking it up" and then position herself by the door. But "hey look at these lumps HOOK THE BRAINS TO THE MAINS" in less time than it took Ash to get the Nostromo's airlock open? /Wesley/ would call that impulsive. Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 11:59
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If we're making Star Trek comparisons, the Prometheus crew are the Pakleds.
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Apr 5, 2023 12:20
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ruddiger posted:This country executed over 4000 people via electrocution, less than 2% were considered “botched” and of those botched executions, some heads caught fire and sparked, none were recorded as exploding. Again absolutely happy to be schooled on this by anyone with real knowledge, "subcutaneous electric shock nerve damage voltage" is not getting me anything. Splicer fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 12:44
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Ferrinus posted:In the first place this is just Prometheus "Kirk Drift". Even getting close to the mutant worm doesn't represent some kind of goofy clown routine for someone wearing a spacesuit that can withstand exposure to a storm of violent shrapnel who's addressing a creature that's about two or three fingers thick. Even if we ignore the fact that Milburn was A) trying to reassure his obviously-scared crush and B) high at the time, it would be stupid to imagine that a small-to-medium-sized snake can break your arm and puncture your armor in the space of seconds through main force. These guys aren't idiots; they just don't know they're in a horror movie. Darko posted:I've gotten bitten by my own snake due to being drunk at the time and he was on space weed. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 18:07
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The Covenant one does kinda bug me because that seems like a sensible precaution for any explorers in their situation. Even discounting alien monsters they should be thinking 'okay will we get space Ebola from going down unprotected in this planet we've literally just discovered and know nearly nothing about?' Like sure their computer said the atmosphere was safe and earthlike and whatnot but that's very broad strokes and even for people doing their jobs who don't know they're in a horror movie their actions come off as comically blase about the risks of what they're doing
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Apr 5, 2023 18:17
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Meanwhile the colonial marines show up into a definitely probable hostile environment in sleeveless tank tops In the middle of a storm
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Apr 5, 2023 18:28
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No Dignity posted:The Covenant one does kinda bug me because that seems like a sensible precaution for any explorers in their situation. Even discounting alien monsters they should be thinking 'okay will we get space Ebola from going down unprotected in this planet we've literally just discovered and know nearly nothing about?' Like sure their computer said the atmosphere was safe and earthlike and whatnot but that's very broad strokes and even for people doing their jobs who don't know they're in a horror movie their actions come off as comically blase about the risks of what they're doing It’s actually wildly improbable that an alien equivalent of a bacteria/virus would have any way to “infect” us at all. It would be adapted to a completely unrelated biology. It’s only because we are the result of science experiment distantly related to the science experiment that makes the spores that anything happens at all.
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Apr 5, 2023 18:33
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No Dignity posted:The Covenant one does kinda bug me because that seems like a sensible precaution for any explorers in their situation. Even discounting alien monsters they should be thinking 'okay will we get space Ebola from going down unprotected in this planet we've literally just discovered and know nearly nothing about?' Like sure their computer said the atmosphere was safe and earthlike and whatnot but that's very broad strokes and even for people doing their jobs who don't know they're in a horror movie their actions come off as comically blase about the risks of what they're doing In addition to what Deimos wrote, the purpose of going to the planet(s) in the first place is for widespread and long-term colonization, which would be unfeasable if everyone were paranoid about existing in hermetically-sealed domes and wearing helmets 24/7. At some point, you're going to have to remove the helmet.
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Apr 5, 2023 19:05
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I wasn’t real impressed by Covenant when I first saw it in the theater, but I’ve kind of come around on it since then. I mean it’s kind of silly, but man, David is an all-time great villain, and the gore and kill scenes are sort of delightful in a silly kind of way. Not real fond of the implication that David created the aliens, but we’ve gone around and around about that ITT and I have no desire to discuss it beyond what I just said. The film also looks great, Ridley’s always had a great visual sense. Suffice it to say, it’s on HBO this month and every time I see it’s on I’ll flip over and join it in progress.
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Apr 5, 2023 19:14
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There's a great moment in When Worlds Collide ('51) when, having escaped the doomed Earth to a wandering planet, one of the colonists asks, "wait, should we test the atmosphere before we leave the rocket?" and is answered with "Why bother? If the atmosphere is unbreathable then we're dead anyways."
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Apr 5, 2023 19:27
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Y'all are acting as if the colonists in Covenant aren't just a bunch of space Mormon emigrants blindly traveling out on the Oregon Trail hoping they don't get smallpox. Should they have kept their helmets on and checked the atmosphere? Yeah, if they were a highly-trained corporate strike-team. But in actuality they're a bunch of undertrained rubes that The Company is sending out into the unknown. e: They heard Country Roads playing over their radio, so they "know" humans are down there. It makes sense they'd assume there are no atmosphere issues. There's wheat down there, for god's sake. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 19:27
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feedmyleg posted:Y'all are acting as if the colonists in Covenant aren't just a bunch of space Mormon emigrants blindly traveling out on the Oregon Trail hoping they don't get smallpox. Now I want a big Netflix budget take on Olivia Butler's Survivor.
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Apr 5, 2023 19:29
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ruddiger posted:Meanwhile the colonial marines show up into a definitely probable hostile environment in sleeveless tank tops To be fair an atmosphere processor had been running and the planet had been successfully colonized and inhabited for decades, so they legit had no reason to think the atmosphere wasn’t safe.
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Apr 5, 2023 19:43
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The situation with the colonists in Covenant seemed a bit odd to me just because of the timeline. The feeling I got with the Prometheus was that it was this secret ultra-expensive mission put together by like the only guy on Earth who could've made it happen. Cut to like 20ish years later and now we have this gigantic ship carrying hundreds of colonists into deep space, I just didn't realize humanity had advanced that far.
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Apr 5, 2023 19:47
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Xenomrph posted:To be fair an atmosphere processor had been running and the planet had been successfully colonized and inhabited for decades, so they legit had no reason to think the atmosphere wasn’t safe.
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Apr 5, 2023 19:52
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Xenomrph posted:To be fair an atmosphere processor had been running and the planet had been successfully colonized and inhabited for decades, so they legit had no reason to think the atmosphere wasn’t safe.  Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) for exposure to sulfuric acid (e.g. being in the same room as it).
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Apr 5, 2023 19:53
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Cameron's future definitely has no PPE or Labor Union protections for space workers, the company operates in the same way current billionaires/conglomerates operate.
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Apr 5, 2023 20:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
 I get what you're saying here, but I worked in analytical chemistry for a short time regularly handling sulfuric acid and I was only given gloves and safety glasses.Now, granted, that did in fact factor pretty heavily into why I left that job. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 20:18
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ruddiger posted:Cameron's future definitely has no PPE or Labor Union protections for space workers, the company operates in the same way current billionaires/conglomerates operate. It’s depressingly funny how decades-old sci-fi/horror media tried to depict “unrealistically corrupt/evil mega corporations” that look positively benign/quaint compared to the modern day corporate hellscape we live in today. WY, OCP, Umbrella Corporation, the company from Johnny Mnemonic, etc
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Apr 5, 2023 20:19
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