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Decoy Badger posted:We saw the same evolution in both the Brood War and SC2 bot worlds. Very early on, the most dominant bots simply did well-executed worker rushes, then it shifted to bot armies composed entirely of basic units as the bots built up more situational awareness and unit control. Usually zealots. Now the top ranked bots go much further into the tech tree. Ah, the Thermopylae Tactic. Hope that works out here. We don’t have a side path and a knowledgeable enemy taking that path to circumvent our choke point on the opposing team, right? That’s how the Persians beat Leonidas of Sparta at Thermopylae. We do have such a path? Not ideal. Has the enemy seen it yet? No? Ok, good. Let’s use the choke point to keep the enemy busy, be ready to spot them and maybe counter them if they start using the side path. Meanwhile I want our non front line units to increase their tech level and build, then gather and train higher level units so we can hit the enemy harder when we are ready. Maybe our basic swarm units can beat them, but I want to learn how to make and employ higher level units too. So let’s win the battle if we can, but for the war, let’s keep the enemy busy at our choke point and build up our military strength behind the lines. Then, when we are ready, we’ll send forth a force of stronger tech and numbers to engage the enemy. That force, I think, has better chances of winning than a basic troop horde or a basic troop defense force. The Greeks won the war against Persia with such a strategy. So let’s make that happen here if we can. That would be my thinking here. I hope the audience sees the value in what I say. Regarding the latest update- I like how the Zerg Veteran Leaders, aka Cerebrates, are holding Kerrigan back to develop her mind and strategic skills over her anger and combat tactics in the beginning. I wonder if that will work out for them in the long run. Don’t know enough about StarCraft Lore to know for sure yet. Looks like we got a Zerg vs Zerg battle coming up too. That sounds cool. Seems to me like the Cerebrates have AI cloud backup for their minds that allowed them reincarnation but the Protoss are developing a counter to that. Does that analogy work here? It does for me. Ooh, I always hated these missions in WC2. Kill the enemy in your backyard or at your gates quick, then get ready for a larger evolving enemy. This is dangerous for any general, any military force. Oh well, it must be faced! Challenge accepted! Lots of good tactics and strategies on display in the battle here. Glad we’re seeing them. I also like Kerrigan going “Miss me already?” Does she represent the player’s impatience and recklessness? Something a veteran player should temp down? That sounds useful. I am exploring the idea of video games as a teaching tool, so this is cool. Certainly there’s a good teaching tool here. War simulator forcing the player to develop new strategies and related skills if they want to win. That’s good. Ooh, a Defiler? Sounds interesting. This Defiler does indeed sound versatile and powerful. Maybe I need to actually play this game. Ooh, you’re applying some strategy I previously discussed in your battle, JK. Nice! If you could not tell before, I’m writing this reply stream of conscience while I read over the update. Moving forward… You better not make that mistake again, Kerrigan. The Zerg are with you, but you are not yet the Queen of Blades. Basing this analogy on limited knowledge of SC lore. Victory! Ok, let’s end this reply and let other people talk. achtungnight fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Apr 2, 2023 |
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Apr 2, 2023 17:41
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I'm fairly sure you can beat the entire original Zerg campaign by just spamming Zerglings (and using Overlords where necessary). Probably wouldn't work in Brood War, though.
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Apr 2, 2023 19:25
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achtungnight posted:I like how the Zerg Veteran Leaders, aka Cerebrates, are holding Kerrigan back to develop her mind and strategic skills over her anger and combat tactics in the beginning. I wonder if that will work out for them in the long run. Don’t know enough about StarCraft Lore to know for sure yet. Looks like we got a Zerg vs Zerg battle coming up too. That sounds cool. Important to remember is that all the dialogue he puts in italics are added by him, and not actually from the game. But yeah, it is an interesting note that while the Cerebrate is dealing with this, Kerrigan doesn't join him. Being held back, effectively as a punishment, is an interesting explanation for this.
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Apr 2, 2023 19:36
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Yeah it was really just a way to explain why she's not in the mission, although it's also taking into account the way she later talks about this experience impacting her, calling it a "lesson" she "took to heart." And maybe it's just because they almost hardly interact, but there does seem to already be in-game a dynamic of Kerrigan taking Daggoth much more seriously than she does Zasz, so I like the idea of him being someone actually capable of keeping a leash on Kerrigan. Actually Daggoth in general has a lot less presence in this campaign than I remember. He guides you in the first mission but since then has basically only been popping up to expand on what the Overmind says. Daggoth is like that HR person who handles your onboarding and training and is the person you report to every day for the first two weeks of a new office job, then suddenly you never see him again outside of occasional hallway nods. anilEhilated posted:I'm fairly sure you can beat the entire original Zerg campaign by just spamming Zerglings (and using Overlords where necessary). Probably wouldn't work in Brood War, though. You probably could, but it's something that would get a lot more difficult on the next few missions, which are basically just a Reaver and Psi Storm bonanza.
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Apr 2, 2023 20:36
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The Defiler highlights a major thing that makes Zerg hard for me to play beyond a very basic level - I hate "wasting" units, so I can rarely bring myself to use abilities like Consume even though I know it'd be making things a lot easier and more efficient to just charge up for another Plague or Dark Swarm. Hell, it took a real mental effort to be able to just go for the mass zergling waves last time I played through the campaign, because of how many units I knew would die from it. Yeah, it won missions, which is all that actually matters, but man I just cannot easily connect with the "who cares, we've got reinforcements" attitude the Zerg really benefit from.
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Apr 2, 2023 20:45
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The Defilier Mound looks super hosed up and gross even by Zerg standards, so you just knew whatever it gave you was going to be nasty.
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Apr 2, 2023 21:03
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disposablewords posted:The Defiler highlights a major thing that makes Zerg hard for me to play beyond a very basic level - I hate "wasting" units, so I can rarely bring myself to use abilities like Consume even though I know it'd be making things a lot easier and more efficient to just charge up for another Plague or Dark Swarm. Hell, it took a real mental effort to be able to just go for the mass zergling waves last time I played through the campaign, because of how many units I knew would die from it. Yeah, it won missions, which is all that actually matters, but man I just cannot easily connect with the "who cares, we've got reinforcements" attitude the Zerg really benefit from. That's me alright. Hated using something like Consume or suiciding units. "No, it's a waste of resources and time etc etc." I like that Starcraft is such a dynamic game in terms of strategy. I can respect that. And it feels like it happened by accident, which makes it so much better.
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Apr 2, 2023 21:16
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disposablewords posted:The Defiler highlights a major thing that makes Zerg hard for me to play beyond a very basic level - I hate "wasting" units, so I can rarely bring myself to use abilities like Consume even though I know it'd be making things a lot easier and more efficient to just charge up for another Plague or Dark Swarm. That's what Broodlings are for. Kill an enemy unit, then charge up your Defiler with another 100 space mana. The idea of Consume would make it into Warcraft 3 and SC 2, but not in the original super-powerful way of "A Zergling or Broodling with one HP left still gives you 50 energy no matter what."
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Apr 2, 2023 21:35
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Getting mana off percentage of consumed health is very powerful too, just in a different way.
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Apr 2, 2023 21:45
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I didn't realise until just now how few melee units there are in this game - not even Firebats are considered melee apparently. I think that Dark Swarm might be more balanced if it just protected air units and not land too.
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Apr 3, 2023 02:07
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It's kind of hilariously wild that something as insanely powerful as the Defiler is balanced in this kind of game. I never really messed with them when I was a kid so I have horrible knowledge of any spellcaster that is not from the Protoss.
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Apr 3, 2023 03:29
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JustJeff88 posted:I didn't realise until just now how few melee units there are in this game - not even Firebats are considered melee apparently. I think that Dark Swarm might be more balanced if it just protected air units and not land too. Is it, however, worth noting that Firebats can still hit through Dark Swarm. I'll wait for John's analysis of Defilers to explain why, though.
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Apr 3, 2023 03:48
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I remember the briefing of this mission for how a stage direction slipped into the recording, at least in the original version. "I shall find him and (sudden pitch change) cut it!"
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Apr 3, 2023 06:15
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This thread made me play Starcraft Mass Recall and drat it is hard. I managed to finish Terran campaign with about zillion reloads per mission, Zerg campaign is slightly easier mostly because Mutalisk spam is so goddamn effective.
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Apr 3, 2023 14:34
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RevolverDivider posted:It's kind of hilariously wild that something as insanely powerful as the Defiler is balanced in this kind of game. I never really messed with them when I was a kid so I have horrible knowledge of any spellcaster that is not from the Protoss. Starcraft is a game that stumbled into balance. I understand why they can't buff Scouts, because the whole thing is a house of cards. One gust of wind, however light, and it all comes tumbling down. Szarrukin posted:This thread made me play Starcraft Mass Recall and drat it is hard. I managed to finish Terran campaign with about zillion reloads per mission, Zerg campaign is slightly easier mostly because Mutalisk spam is so goddamn effective. Same here. I play Remastered I have no major problems in the campaigns. If I play Mass Recall, easy is laughable and Normal beats me six ways from Staffordshire. I assume that Hard would just melt my monitor and spew anti-semitism.
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Apr 3, 2023 17:57
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I never appreciated defilers in SC1. My go-to as the Zerg was always hordes of hydralisks so I never used dark swarm, and I don't think I ever realized how powerful plague was.
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Apr 3, 2023 18:00
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Another proud member of the "Mass Recall Kicked My rear end" club here. I think the devs took into account all the QOL improvements that SC2 offers like unlimited group sizes and cranked up the Ai to compensate
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Apr 3, 2023 18:51
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Casters are incredibly powerful in SC1, but they were counterbalanced by the UI limitations making them take a lot of effort to control and manage.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:08
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Mass Recall Normal is really good, but it does force you to actually get a decent grip on what you're doing with production and building proper defenses and attacks. You can still macro it into oblivion. Some of the older versions of it didn't play nice with some of the old Starcraft mineral layouts and openers, but I think it's mostly been refined by now to be fine. It's kind of an unfortunate necessity since if you just keep everything the same besides being in Starcraft 2 the AI would just effortlessly roll over and die.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:14
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Alpha3KV posted:I remember the briefing of this mission for how a stage direction slipped into the recording, at least in the original version. "I shall find him and (sudden pitch change) cut it!" I figured she was just going to say "I will find him and CUT HIM TO PIECES" or something. As for Mass Recall, yeah, it's harder than the original. The basic idea there is that difficulty was amped up in order to account for the controls being easier and there being so much QOL changes in the UI.
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Apr 3, 2023 19:26
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anilEhilated posted:I'm fairly sure you can beat the entire original Zerg campaign by just spamming Zerglings (and using Overlords where necessary). Probably wouldn't work in Brood War, though. https://youtu.be/zaE3AOQWGqE
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Apr 3, 2023 19:47
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I just remember the Terran mission that teaches you about air transports smothering the island you're supposed to take in spider mines and my attempted landing made klendathu look like a friendly picnic.
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Apr 3, 2023 20:40
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yook posted:Casters are incredibly powerful in SC1, but they were counterbalanced by the UI limitations making them take a lot of effort to control and manage. I've been playing the campaign again inspired by this lp and my experience of casters has stayed true. The computer with a high templar: my entire army is dead Me with a high templar: my entire army is dead and the ai's units ran out with half health Bonus reaver experience Ai with a reaver: all my zerglings gone Me with a reaver: all my zealots gone
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Apr 4, 2023 17:35
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Unit Spotlight: Defiler The Defiler as seen in the manual. Overview: As we’ve seen, the Defiler is a Hive tech unit can be morphed, once we have its respective building, for 50 minerals, 150 vespene, and 2 supply - a cost that, while not inconsiderable, is still quite reasonable for a high-tech caster, especially one of this power. It’s a Medium unit that has 80 HP and 1 armour, so it’s quite fragile for its cost. It’s also got a thoroughly unremarkable speed of 4, putting it on the same footing as Terran infantry (without Stim), and making it the slowest ground unit in Zerg’s arsenal, other than unupgraded Hydras. In other words, while it’s considerably less expensive than the Science Vessel, it’s also much less mobile and much easier to kill. Fortunately, as we saw, the Defiler also has some of the most ridiculous spells ever seen in an RTS. Spells: Dark Swarm: Arguably the Defiler’s best spell is also the one spell it doesn’t need to research. Dark Swarm costs 100 energy and, as we saw, blankets an area in an orange cloud. This area is absolutely massive: as far as AoE radius goes, Dark Swarm is second only to Nukes - and even then, it’s quite a bit larger than the Nuke’s ground zero. It also has an impressive duration of nearly 40 seconds, which is more than enough time for whatever battles might be taking place underneath. We saw in the mission that it prevents all ranged damage being done to units under the cloud. First, this is indiscriminate - enemy units within the AoE will also be impervious to your ranged attacks. Second, this only affects ground units. Air units cannot be shielded by Dark Swarm, and neither can buildings (I may have incorrectly said buildings can be shielded by it in the update, I’ll have to go back and check). The most important thing to note here are the two exceptions: Splash and Spells. Splash damage is mostly fairly straightforward: the attack itself won’t do any damage, but the splash still resolves as usual - including on the primary target. So Siege Tanks firing on units under a Dark Swarm won’t do full damage to anything, but they will do partial damage to everything in the radius of their shot - usually 25% damage. (Fun fact: What actually happens here is that rather than whiffing the shot, Dark Swarm causes the shot to fall short, landing slightly in front of where it was supposed to land and therefore doing splash damage to the target. I’m actually not sure if this “moved shot” will end up doing its full base damage if its new trajectory lands it on another unit also under Dark Swarm, but I think no?) Where this gets a bit complicated is the four attacks that are “pure splash.” These units have no primary “attack,” the splash damage is the whole thing. These are: Spider Mines, Firebats, Reavers, and Infested Terrans. These four are not obstructed by Dark Swarm in any way, shape, or form. As an aside, this fact often leads people to conclude that Firebats are melee units, when in actual fact they’re ranged. An extremely short range, yes, but ranged nonetheless (There’s also a fifth “pure splash” unit, but it’s one we won’t see for a very long time: the Lurker). The other exception is spells. Dark Swarm doesn’t prevent damage from spells at all. And note that it doesn’t have to explicitly be the Spell damage type, the source just has to be a special ability rather than a regular attack. So the Battlecruiser’s Yamato Gun, for instance, can still harm units under a Dark Swarm even though it does explosive damage. Despite all of these asterisks, it’s still an enormously powerful tool. It’s particularly effective against Terran, who sees nearly their entire army nullified or at least severely weakened by it, but as we’ll see, it’s got plenty of application against Protoss as well. The one last thing to note about Dark Swarm is that its AoE doesn’t perfectly match the graphics. Liquipedia provides a convenient example of this:   See how there are some Zerglings covered by the cloud that died anyway, and some that aren’t covered that survive? It’s because the spell itself is a bit taller and a bit narrower than the visuals would seem to indicate. Plague: Costing 200 each of minerals and vespene to research, Plague is the Defiler’s second spell. For a whopping 150 energy, Plague will do a total of ~295 damage over the course of ~ 25 seconds (translating to 11 damage per second, give or take) to ground units, air units, and structures alike. It has reasonable AoE, similar to Ensnare - in fact visually it looks very similar to Ensnare as well, just red instead of green. I wonder if one’s a palette swap of the other. Like nearly every other spell in the game, it doesn’t distinguish between friend and foe, so if you’re not careful you can easily Plague your own units as well. As we saw, Plague will never bring a unit down below 1 HP, although it will continue to persist once a unit is at 1 HP (e.g. once a Zerg unit or structure has been reduced to 1 HP, any HP it regenerates will get Plagued away for the duration of the spell). As I mentioned, it also only drains HP, so Protoss shields are left intact. Unlike Terran and Zerg, Protoss actually have no way of restoring lost HP, so while they'll still have their shields up, any damage inflicted by Plague is permanent. And it's worth mentioning that because they burn down, Terran buildings can actually be killed by Plague. In particular, a single casting of Plague will be enough to raze Bunkers and Turrets without SCV repair. In any case, Plague is a deadly powerful spell. Your best bet generally is to lob it before an attack, both to soften up the enemy and to make sure you don't get any on your own troops, but though its damage is gradual, it's still enough to make a big difference if you end up having to cast it in the middle of a fight. Consume: There's not much to say about Consume that hasn't already been said. For 100 minerals and 100 vespene you get this ability that allows the Defiler to turn friendly Zerg units into 50 space mana. It can be used on air units as well as land ones, but while Consuming a loaded Overlord will kill it along with any units it's transporting, it still only gives 50 energy. Let's see… It only works on Zerg units, but if you're really in a pinch, you can Consume larvae and eggs (and presumably Guardian cocoons, though I've never tried). An invaluable ability that keeps the nightmare spells coming. And finally, 150 of each resource gets us Metasynaptic Nodes, the Defiler's energy upgrade.  Artwork of the Defiler from the Starcraft Field Manual. Metasynaptic Math: So way back in Terran mission 5, when we first had the concept of energy upgrades introduced, I said they're generally considered a waste of resources and you're better off just getting another caster instead. And that's generally true. But there are a couple of exceptions. See, some of you might have crunched the numbers on that and thought "Hang on, surely once you've built enough of a particular unit, you'll hit a point where upgrading its energy will be more beneficial than getting another one" but that's only partly true. Let's take Science Vessels, for example. If you've got a dozen of them, giving them all an extra 50 energy sounds kind of nice, doesn't it? The issue is that they won't actually get an extra 50 energy in practice because ideally Science Vessels are just zooming around the map, letting spells off constantly. They'll probably never even manage to store up 200 energy, let alone 250. So the only thing they're getting is a slightly higher energy regen rate, which really isn't worth it. Or take a look at the Ghost. The Ghost is much less mobile and more of a surprise unit, so unlike the Vessel it actually has a decent chance of hanging around until it hits 250 energy, but then it runs into the question of what does it do with it? The only advantage a Ghost gets from that extra energy is being able to fire off two Lockdowns while cloaked - kind of nice in the campaigns, sometimes, but something that's basically never really going to be worth it in multiplayer. So in reality, when it comes to energy upgrades, you're really looking at three criteria: 1. Will you produce enough of this unit that the extra energy is a justifiable expense? 2. Will this unit be able to actually accumulate the extra energy? 3. Does this unit get any extra utility out of the extra energy? And in most cases, you're going to fail one of those criteria. Defilers, however, are an exception. They're a core part of Zerg play, so yes to 1. Thanks to Consume they're almost perpetually topped off, so definite yes to 2. 250 energy allows a Defiler to drop both a Plague and a Swarm in one battle, so a yes to 3 as well. This adds together to mean that the Defiler is a rare instance of a unit where its energy upgrade is very often researched in competitive games. Fluff: The Defiler is a rare instance of a Zerg creature that isn't actually assimilated from another creature. Instead, the Defiler is… kind of like a Zerg hot dog? It's largely comprised of all the genetic "leftovers" of the other strains. My understanding of this is that when a species like the Slothien or the Dune Runners get assimilated into the Swarm, they're pruned of their genetic defects - cancer, aging, etc. Then one day someone took a look at what was on the cutting room floor and said "Hey, what if we take all this stuff and weave it into a new strain." The result is the Defiler, a mess of carcinogenic pathogens and parasites, which it's able to synthesize and weaponize against the enemies of the Swarm. One interesting thing about the Defiler is that for it, energy is quite literally energy. It's not representing anything. It's literally the Defiler metabolizing calories to fuel the incredible amount of energy it needs to synthesize pathogens within itself.  Official Blizzard artwork of the Defiler. Tech Fluff …this means that Consume is also very literal. It's not absorbing a unit's psychic energy or introducing some symbiote. It's the Defiler chowing down on other Zerg and using its hyper-quick metabolism to immediately convert that food into energy. I guess that's why it can never get more than 50 energy, because there's a hard cap on how fast its metabolism is. Kind of like how you can't just give yourself more energy for your day by overeating. The Defiler is also constantly covered in tiny insects (that it presumably synthesizes itself). It's able to launch these insects into the air, creating a Dark Swarm - a cloud so thick that it's impossible for anything to accurately target units underneath it. So… yeah. Just a big ol' thick fog of bugs. ...Wait, I know these games aren't super precise with their scale, but think about the size of the Defiler vs the area covered by Dark Swarm. Just how many layers deep are the bugs on it? Is this like an Oogie Boogie situation? When a Defiler dies is it just a horde of insects inside? Also 100 Killtrane Bucks to whoever comes up with the best explanation for why a swarm of insects prevents accurately targeting the units underneath while still allowing the units underneath - friend or foe - to accurately target anything outside. The Defiler can also synthesize all the carcinogens, pathogens, and venoms inside of it into hyper-deadly spores that it uses to launch this Plague in a cloud, blanketing everything nearby. The unprecedentedly toxic contents are able to corrode everything, from the thick plating of Protoss capital ships to human flesh. Sadly, there is no lore explanation for why this is never able to actually kill anyone - or at least if there is, I've never come across it. And finally, Defilers can increase the rate at which they produce toxins by having their brainstem stimulated through evolving a Metasynaptic Node. Campaign Usage: Defilers are one of the most powerful tools in the Zerg arsenal, and while tricky to use well, they can be an invaluable asset to us in the campaign. Between using Dark Swarm to win battles we'd have no business winning and using Plague to siege down enemy defensive positions, we'll almost certainly be seeing it just about every mission from here on out. Competitive Usage: Yes. Absolutely. If you want to play Zerg in multiplayer, you need to master the Defiler. Vs. Terran: The linchpin of this matchup. Often in this matchup, Zerg's priority is to harass Terran to delay their advance for long enough to get these suckers out. Dark Swarm is particularly devastating against Terran and used well can turn a losing game into a winning one. The downside is that Terran have a powerful anti-Defiler tool: the Science Vessel. Not EMP - thanks to Consume, in most cases EMP isn't much more than a minor setback. But drop an Irradiate on a Defiler and it's toast. There's nothing Zerg can do to save it. This leads to TvZ being a sort of intricate and macabre dance where Zerg is trying to use Defilers to win engagements, Terran is trying to use Vessels to snipe Defilers, Zerg is trying to use Scourge to snipe Vessels, and Terran is trying to use Marines to gun down Scourge. This is also where Plague comes into play - as well as Metasynaptic Node. You'll often see a situation where a Defiler will get off a Dark Swarm then Terran comes in and Irradiates it. In retaliation, with its last breath the Defiler hurls a Plague on the Science Vessel clump, then a Muta flies in to see if it can pick them off before they get repaired. It’s also important not to fall into the trap of thinking that Plague shouldn’t be used just because Terran can rapidly heal its units - unless you’re only dropping it on one or two units, Plague will still damage Terran faster than its SCVs can repair or its Medics can heal. The worst case scenario is you force Terran to devote a bunch of resources and/or energy to stemming the tide of damage. The far more likely scenario is that you’ll face a Terran force that’s been dramatically weakened.  FLASH! 🇰&%23127479; (T) vs SOULKEY! &%23127472;&%23127479; (Z) on Fighting Spirit - StarCraft - Brood War - YouTube - 13-26.jpeg) Soulkey lays down a Dark Swarm so that his Zerglings (barely visible under the cloud) could charge in and eviscerate some Marines without risk. Chokepoints like ramps and this bridge here are a popular spot for Dark Swarm as it gives the opposing player very little room to maneuver. They can either retreat or die. Versus Protoss: Defilers are a bit more situational here, but they’re still very common. Between Zealots, Reavers, and Psi Storm, Protoss have a lot of options for dealing damage underneath Dark Swarm, but don’t discount it entirely. Protoss has two units - Dragoons and one we’re going to see soon called the Archon - that they make heavy use of in this matchup and they’re both affected by Swarm, to a degree, so it can still be quite a powerful tool. Just watch that you don’t clump your units too close together under the Swarm, because Psi Storms are calling. Plague is also something that maybe takes a bit more finesse in this matchup, just because of the whole Shield/HP thing. Some Protoss units are mostly HP with some shields, and if the enemy’s using those then Plague can be devastating. Other Protoss units are mostly or even almost entirely shields and not HP, so if you’re seeing a lot of those, it might not be a sound investment. Because the core of Protoss armies, Zealots and Dragoons, are more HP than Shield, this spell sees a fair amount of use.  EPIC! Best! 🇰&%23127479; (P) vs Jaedong! &%23127472;&%23127479; (Z) on Fighting Spirit - StarCraft - Brood War 2022 - YouTube - 22-16.jpeg)  EPIC! Best! 🇰&%23127479; (P) vs Jaedong! &%23127472;&%23127479; (Z) on Fighting Spirit - StarCraft - Brood War 2022 - YouTube - 22-46.jpeg) Best, the Protoss player, has amassed a horde of Dragoons and Photon Cannons to drive off Jaedong’s push, but Defilers come to the rescue as the Hydras under the cloud make short work of the enemy. Versus Zerg: This is the tricky one. In theory, Defilers are incredibly powerful in this matchup. Because ZvZ is all about Muta clumps duelling it out, a single Plague can win the game. On the other hand, ZvZ is very often over before Hive tech is a realistic possibility. So if the game goes long enough to reach Hive tech, then a well-managed Defiler is basically just an “I win” button. But that’s a really big if. To summarize: TvZ: Completely essential unit. Don’t leave home without it. PvZ: Mostly essential. You can leave home without it, but I wouldn’t recommend it. ZvZ: Pretty binary. It’s either 100% necessary or completely irrelevant, depending on how conclusive the Muta duels are. But mostly the latter. Trivia: Two fun facts here. The first is that the Defiler, like many spellcasters in the game, originally had an attack, spitting corrosive venom. This didn’t make it into the final game but it is still in the game files. I actually wonder if this was removed for balance reasons or if it was, as I suspect, actually a QoL thing where they realized that spellcasters having an attack was actually an inconvenience as it’d make them Leeroy Jenkins at the front of an army or have them wander off and start poking at a Supply Depot instead of staying where you want them. The second fun fact has to do with the Defiler Mound. Let’s revisit the picture of it here:  See those black crystals around it? Those are actually mineral patches that have been turned black just by prolonged exposure to Defilers and all their corrosive substances and venoms.
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Apr 5, 2023 01:22
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I haven't had much access to my computer for the last couple of days so this Spotlight was mostly typed up on my phone. I think I caught any formatting issues that arose from that but let me know if I missed anything!JustJeff88 posted:I didn't realise until just now how few melee units there are in this game - not even Firebats are considered melee apparently. I think that Dark Swarm might be more balanced if it just protected air units and not land too. I think the funniest instance of this is the Terran SCV. The SCV's attack is melee but isn't flagged as melee by the game files. Instead it's considered a ranged attack with a range of 0. All this means is that it's a melee unit in every way except that it's unable to do damage under a Dark Swarm. Why? Absolutely no idea. There's absolutely no way the devs were worried about SCVs being able to attack under Dark Swarm leading to balance issues. Drones and Probes have a range of 1 so my suspicion is that SCVs originally did as well, then their range was reduced to differentiate and/or balance them, and giving them a ranged attack with a range of 0 was easier than reflagging them as a melee unit. yook posted:Casters are incredibly powerful in SC1, but they were counterbalanced by the UI limitations making them take a lot of effort to control and manage. This is actually what led to me going back to mostly playing SC1 over SC2. I still love SC2 a very great deal and think it's one of the finest strategy games ever made, but one of the things I love most about Blizzard games is spellcasters, and once you get the hang of them I just find them so much more fun in BW. I feel the same way about Warcraft, actually. Spellcasters in WC3 are more user-friendly and a lot easier to use, but none of them can quite match the feeling of pulling off a perfect Blizzard or Death and Decay in WC2.
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Apr 5, 2023 01:30
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JohnKilltrane posted:Also 100 Killtrane Bucks to whoever comes up with the best explanation for why a swarm of insects prevents accurately targeting the units underneath while still allowing the units underneath - friend or foe - to accurately target anything outside. You ever pull a toque down over your eyes, or pull your shirt up over your face, so you can sorta see through the fabric while to someone else your face is obscured? Kinda like that, I figure.
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Apr 5, 2023 01:51
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There is another pure splash unit that you (and Blizzard) forgot  Edit: Also is there a hero defiler? Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 04:01
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Jobbo_Fett posted:There is another pure splash unit that you (and Blizzard) forgot There is! It's called Unclean One, and comes with 250 HP and 3 armor. Otherwise, it's identical to a regular Defiler. Still doesn't have an attack, but is obviously much more durable than a regular Defiler. It does not appear anywhere in the official campaigns.
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Apr 5, 2023 04:15
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JohnKilltrane posted:Also 100 Killtrane Bucks to whoever comes up with the best explanation for why a swarm of insects prevents accurately targeting the units underneath while still allowing the units underneath - friend or foe - to accurately target anything outside. The controller of the units inside just gives really, really detailed instructions on where to shoot.
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Apr 5, 2023 05:06
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I still like playing SC2 over SC1 as while I think the UI serves a role in what makes SC1 competitively good I'm a grump who likes user friendly UI but casters are a pale shadow of their former glory for the most part in SC2. This is probably misremembering but Psi Storm in 2 is a light drizzle compared to 1.
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Apr 5, 2023 05:09
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RevolverDivider posted:I still like playing SC2 over SC1 as while I think the UI serves a role in what makes SC1 competitively good I'm a grump who likes user friendly UI but casters are a pale shadow of their former glory for the most part in SC2. This is probably misremembering but Psi Storm in 2 is a light drizzle compared to 1. I've just been playing 2 and at least in the Protoss bonus missions in the Terran campaign, Psi Storm was indeed a disappointment.
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Apr 5, 2023 05:13
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JohnKilltrane posted:Also 100 Killtrane Bucks to whoever comes up with the best explanation for why a swarm of insects prevents accurately targeting the units underneath while still allowing the units underneath - friend or foe - to accurately target anything outside. Each bug within the cloud known as the Dark Swarm contains within it a connection to the Overmind and thus the swarm itself. It would be fairer to refer to the cloud of insects that make up the Dark Swarm as a short-lived symbiotic entity with the Defiler that gestates in a matter of seconds, similar to the later 'swarmlords' and locusts encountered later in the history of the Swarm. However, because of this connection, the Dark Swarm itself is exceedingly well-coordinated, leading to two quirks. The first is that the swarm itself can form facsimile 'targets' within the cloud that accurately represent to movement and positioning of enemy forces outside the cloud, allowing for troops within the cloud to accurately fire upon targets that they cannot perceive or see. The second is that Starcraft does not model accuracy from troops, except up hills and thus does not model that troops firing from inside the cloud are actually more accurate than firing with no visibility issues, to say nothing of the fact that even accurate fire from outside the cloud fails to land a hit. This is because the bugs that make up the Dark Swarm itself ride the munitions that enter the cloud Dr. Strangelove style and can alter the trajectory of any and all munitions in order to increase the accuracy of those inside the cloud while protecting them from those outside. However, they are bugs and kinda stupid, so enemies inside the cloud gain the same benefits. Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 07:29
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disposablewords posted:I've just been playing 2 and at least in the Protoss bonus missions in the Terran campaign, Psi Storm was indeed a disappointment. Psi storm in SC1 does 40% more damage than in SC2 iirc - 112 dmg vs 80.
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Apr 5, 2023 08:50
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JohnKilltrane posted:Also 100 Killtrane Bucks to whoever comes up with the best explanation for why a swarm of insects prevents accurately targeting the units underneath while still allowing the units underneath - friend or foe - to accurately target anything outside. I'd say the bugs in the swarm are actually clustering on the units sitting under it, camouflaging them against the swirling mass of bugs in the air but without impeding their own ability to see. As for why this isn't worked around with Detectors... the bugs are electromagnetic. Yeah, that'll do.
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Apr 5, 2023 09:12
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I don't think we have seen the "power overwhelming" protoss units yet, have we? Is their attack melee or ranged?
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Apr 5, 2023 09:14
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Every now and then this pops into my head. The defiler spotlight of course brought it up again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpuv7VPb2rA
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Apr 5, 2023 10:57
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Defilers were key in what I still think is the coolest SC pro play I've ever seen - I might be misrembering details it was ZvT, super late game, the Terran completely mined out and having one wraith for offense, the Zerg only having a drone, some zerglings and a defiler. What they did was proceed to make a safe path for the drone using a trail of dark swarms for the drone to make multiple trips to a distant refinery to gather enough gas for a pair of scourges which won the game. Can't seem to find the video, sadly. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Apr 5, 2023 |
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Apr 5, 2023 11:03
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Omobono posted:I don't think we have seen the "power overwhelming" protoss units yet, have we? Is their attack melee or ranged? Ranged. Like the Firebat, it's a very short range, but it's still range. Jobbo_Fett posted:There is another pure splash unit that you (and Blizzard) forgot Oh shoot, what did I miss? BlazetheInferno posted:There is! It's called Unclean One, and comes with 250 HP and 3 armor. Otherwise, it's identical to a regular Defiler. Still doesn't have an attack, but is obviously much more durable than a regular Defiler. It does not appear anywhere in the official campaigns. Huh. I could have sworn we get the Unclean One in a BW mission, which is why I didn't do the hero thing for it. Looks like I misremembered. I'll edit the post, thanks!
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Apr 5, 2023 11:48
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JohnKilltrane posted:Oh shoot, what did I miss? I'll give you a hint, its a Terran flying unit that only got fixed in the remaster - and now sees some play in pro games
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Apr 5, 2023 12:12
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 17:19 |
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I tried to use defiler in Mass Recall Zerg campaign, but everything that isn't mass mutalisk turned out to be too slow, too prone to Raiders or both. Might be skill issue.
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Apr 5, 2023 12:48
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