|
Presto posted:I mean, I was around during this time so... I was in Dallas on November 22, 1963
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 17:02 |
|
|
Presto posted:I mean, I was around during this time so... so what
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 20:22
|
|
|
a fatguy baldspot posted:I was in Dallas on November 22, 1963  1000
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 20:26
|
|
|
How could I be ignorant of those events if I was a child at the time?  checkmate
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 20:40
|
|
|
Hitler killed 6 million Jews, the restoration of capitalism killed 7 million Eastern Europeans, so who was really worst?
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 20:52
|
|
|
the USSR may have been in an irrecoverable spiral during Gorbachev's tenure but nothing I've read about him before or after the collapse suggests he even thought that let alone that he was trying to ameliorate it
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 20:54
|
|
|
Gorby got totally ripped off on the NATO deal too. He asked if, once he forfeited anything he could use to prevent NATO expansion, if NATO was going to expand and was told "No." Then NATO expanded. Whoops!
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:06
|
|
|
I thought they agreed to a moratorium on expansion for some time period and NATO waited until after that expired and then expanded because of course they were going to. I am not a history-knower really though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:12
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:I thought they agreed to a moratorium on expansion for some time period and NATO waited until after that expired and then expanded because of course they were going to. I am not a history-knower really though. if this is correct then he was really hustled
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:15
|
|
|
Presto posted:I mean, I was around during this time so... ok gorbs
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:18
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:I thought they agreed to a moratorium on expansion for some time period and NATO waited until after that expired and then expanded because of course they were going to. I am not a history-knower really though. NATO never agreed to anything about expansion (beyond a promise not to station nukes in the former East Germany) and former Warsaw pact countries were already trying to join by 93
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:23
|
|
|
NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heardquote:
Although according to what I skimmed, all of the assurances were always in reference to the Soviet border. Once the Soviet Union dissolved, well that sounds like a different negotiating point!
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:24
|
|
|
Was it gorbachev who got taken to a random safeway on a state visit and got so stunlocked he had to insist this was some special amazing grocery store potemkin
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:27
|
|
|
quote:Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker assured Gorbachev that “neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place,” and that the Americans understood that “not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.” Of course, once 1993 rolled around and the Soviet Union literally did not exist and hadn't since December 1991, well that was a different landscape. Looks like Gorbachev should have gotten a different promise.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:32
|
|
|
promises aren't worth poo poo anyway, he didn’t get anything in writing
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:34
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:Was it gorbachev who got taken to a random safeway on a state visit and got so stunlocked he had to insist this was some special amazing grocery store potemkin A bunch of people representing countries that literally wanted to turn every inch of Russia into irradiated glass described over the phone a picture of a western grocery store and that was enough. indigi posted:promises aren't worth poo poo anyway, he didn’t get anything in writing lmao a letter in writing to the supreme soviet wouldn't have stopped a thing, especially since the supreme soviet no longer existed. that being said, he Gorbachev gave everything away for nothing. Not even a letter in writing!
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
Ukraine got the US and Russia in writing as defending their sovereignty in exchange for giving Russia the former Soviet nukes, and that didn’t really help them as much as they might have imagined when signing it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
bedpan posted:A bunch of people representing countries that literally wanted to turn every inch of Russia into irradiated glass described over the phone a picture of a western grocery store and that was enough. Turns out I was misremembering. It was Yeltsin in 1989 
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:41
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:Ukraine got the US and Russia in writing as defending their sovereignty in exchange for giving Russia the former Soviet nukes, and that didn’t really help them as much as they might have imagined when signing it. well yeah, that agreement was made when Ukraine had a nuclear arsenal. Once Ukraine surrendered the arsenal, that made the agreement obsolete. A great whoops moment of international diplomacy
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:42
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:48
|
|
|
lmao how had i never seen this
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:56
|
|
|
Osama canoed away
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 21:56
|
|
|
*pointing at late 90s Russia* wow can you believe communism did this
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 22:10
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:Turns out I was misremembering. It was Yeltsin in 1989 
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 22:14
|
|
|
I just noticed hes looking at freezer pops and chocolate sauce lol
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 22:15
|
|
|
Waow Jello pudding pop. King in the castle, king in the castle.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2023 22:24
|
|
|
The fudgecicle is not on trial here
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 01:14
|
|
|
Gorbachev the loving idiot, probably called them fudgicles
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 01:18
|
|
|
Private Cumshoe posted:can't believe he opened up to trade
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 10:30
|
|
|
So when Poland or Baltics applied for NATO, the correct answer would have been gently caress you, you have always been part of Russia?
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 12:06
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 12:15
|
|
|
Fish of hemp posted:So when Poland or Baltics applied for NATO, the correct answer would have been gently caress you, you have always been part of Russia? The correct answer would've been to disband NATO when it accomplished its missions of integrating Germany into a unified Europe and destroying the Soviet Union The only reason not to do that is if the west intended all along to never cease antagonizing Russia
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 12:51
|
|
|
ClassActionFursuit posted:The correct answer would've been to disband NATO when it accomplished its missions of integrating Germany into a unified Europe and destroying the Soviet Union Oh yes, innocent little Russia can only react without any agency of her own. Glad we agree on that. But NATO didn't disband so what would the correct answer been for Baltics and Poland?
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 13:02
|
|
|
Fish of hemp posted:Oh yes, innocent little Russia can only react without any agency of her own. Glad we agree on that. dont care about your shithoile country tbh
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 13:55
|
|
|
Fish of hemp posted:Oh yes, innocent little Russia can only react without any agency of her own. Glad we agree on that. I'm not sure what you're looking for here. NATO will take anyone who also wants to destroy Russia. That's the reason for its existence post-Cold War. If Tahiti wanted to join that's fine too. Literally anyone can join except Russia. It's the No Girls Allowed treehouse with Girls crossed out and Russia written over it. Why would they turn away anyone?
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 13:56
|
|
|
No Russias. They're allowed to have one (Ukraine)
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 14:03
|
|
|
Just remembered the Liz Warren barbershop, run by the guy who was later terrorised by a satanic Airbnb, and lol'd
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 17:27
|
|
|
the sex ghost posted:Just remembered the Liz Warren barbershop, run by the guy who was later terrorised by a satanic Airbnb, and lol'd Right next door to charlie kirk's liberal coffee shop where people were always declaring things
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 17:31
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:Right next door to charlie kirk's liberal coffee shop where people were always declaring things i thought that was some other chud “the resistance” who never washed his hair
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 17:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 17:02 |
|
|
the sex ghost posted:Just remembered the Liz Warren barbershop, run by the guy who was later terrorised by a satanic Airbnb, and lol'd This guy went on to get hired by Bernie in 2020
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 17:48
|
|