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Dareon posted:Emet-Selch saying the quiet part out loud. Well, he's technically correct about us.
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Apr 6, 2023 11:57
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I feel like the people who say 'oh but he doesn't really mean that' don't get that to some people that's a very real thing directed to them anyway. That line was the point of no return for him, after which all chance of sympathy was gone.Heran Bago posted:ShB has some great villain development. A long way from the mysterious hooded figures of ARR. The Ascians actually believe this, and I don't think our hero or friends give enough pushback on this particular point. Like how can you? This is actually a criticism of Shadowbringers for me. I feel like they never properly take Emet to task for the poo poo he did, says, or believes, and that might be because the ShB Scion lineup doesn't have anyone for who his evils were direct. they should've kept Lyse around just so that someone who's been victimized by the Empire can meet the guy that invented it specifically to be as cruel as possible.
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Apr 6, 2023 12:02
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Aside from somebody giving him a counter monologue about how his reasoning is wrong I think opposing, defying, defeating and killing him is pretty well taken to task.  He'd also end up repeating himself in your example. If all sundered life is on the same tier as insects to him, what does he care that one of the hives he built up was extra mean to another?
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Apr 6, 2023 12:14
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Cleretic posted:I feel like they never properly take Emet to task for the poo poo he did, says, or believes, and that might be because the ShB Scion lineup doesn't have anyone for who his evils were direct. for the entirety of ShB the Scions constantly remark that Emet kind of sucks for the poo poo he pulled. plus, instead of ever entertaining the thought that he had a point, you oppose and loving kill him
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Apr 6, 2023 13:07
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Macaluso posted:
What a coincidence! Mine too now. We all just mostly drink and watch shonen anime. 
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Apr 6, 2023 13:30
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MechaX posted:for the entirety of ShB the Scions constantly remark that Emet kind of sucks for the poo poo he pulled. plus, instead of ever entertaining the thought that he had a point, you oppose and loving kill him Yeah this is my takeaway, too. While there's no voiced cutscene where someone says exactly "you made the Empire and it hurt a lot of people and was super bad, gently caress you, wizard Hitler!" there are voiced cutscenes where the Scions tell him to stuff it, and I recall a lot of the between-quest text from the Scions being very wary-to-irritated with him, with occasional moments of them having to admit that there's something more complex happening. At the very least one might criticize that they're mad at him because of Ascian Things and not directly Garlemald Things? To dip into Endwalker spoilers as well, I think there are always going to be people that are frustrated that the endpoint treatment of the Garlean Empire and the circumstances that brought it about isn't a "gently caress those guys forever and ever" but the more complex reckoning with what to do with the Garlean people now that all of that plot happened. For good or for bad, FFXIV's plot likes to operate in a space that's at least generally willing to give some sympathy to the bad guys, even if just in a "well I see why you did that but now we're gonna have an 8-man trial fight" kind of way. FeatherFloat fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Apr 6, 2023 |
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Apr 6, 2023 13:52
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MechaX posted:for the entirety of ShB the Scions constantly remark that Emet kind of sucks for the poo poo he pulled. plus, instead of ever entertaining the thought that he had a point, you oppose and loving kill him honestly, I don't really think they do. I'd put down three scenes that were potentially considered 'calling out Emet'. -His intro scene, Urianger throwing a card at him and basically giving him an answrer of forceful diplomacy. I really like this scene from a functional perspective because it does a lot of work laying down some facts about Emet and how people deal with him, but it doesn't work much on this end--intentionally so. -Y'shtola, after the explanation of shards in the Ocular. She basically lays the groundwork for him to admit how awful his worldview is, but all she really does is... well, like Daeron said, make him say the quiet part loud, so then we can finally recognize how he really feels. Big understated character moment for Y'shtola, who before ShB was too aloof and detached to really do that, but it's also not exactly a ringing denouncement. -The scene before the Dying Gasp, when everyone finally rushes him with disappointingly little success. But rather than calling that a group denouncement, I can honestly only give it to Alisaie, who's the only one that really speaks to Emet and his crimes specifically. Everyone else either speaks to the current situation, or to general idealistic platitudes. ...not that it matters because Alisaie gets slapped down without even a blink, let alone acknowledgement of what she said. Those are all good scenes, I call them all low-key highlights of either the expansion or one of the related characters... but they're just not enough, not for me. Several Scions never really take a swing--most notably to me there is Mr. Child Prodigy Polutics Major, who somehow doesn't really have any meaningful scenes with who I'd probably have assumed before the expansion would've been his big thematic and ideological nemesis. Also I never really felt like we killed him for his ideals, we killed him because he kidnapped our catboy friend (well, I'd more call him an acquaintance but that's nitpicking) and then threatened us. I wouldn't exactly call the Dying Gasp an ideological counterpoint to him, I'd call it retaliation for immediate crimes; his views kinda sit that round out. If a Nazi died in an armed robbery I'm certainly not gonna shed a tear, but I'm also not gonna be saying that's a succinct counterpoint to his worldview. I'm very aware nobody likes this argument, though, and any further stuff I have to say spoils other stuff, so I'm conna call it here.
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Apr 6, 2023 13:56
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Cleretic posted:honestly, I don't really think they do. I'd put down three scenes that were potentially considered 'calling out Emet'. The bit about the "immediate crime" only really works if you ignore the whole reason why you are in the first, all the stuff that you did with the lightwardens, and the fact that you are trying to avert yet another mass casualty event from happening both in the First and the Source. Even the in-game description of Dying Gasp disagrees with your point: By Emet-Selch's own words, you are no one─nothing─your life a ghastly mockery of past perfection, utterly devoid of meaning. Yet despite his endless refutations of your worth, mankind has dreamed and struggled and survived. Even now, you fight to preserve your future, and spare two worlds from unimaginable destruction. The moment has come to make your stand, to call upon every last reserve of strength. Fight for those who shared your journey, and for those you met along the way. Fight for those who awaited your coming across the boundaries of time and space. From distant stars yet undimmed, you are joined by seven summoned champions, for only together can you hope to prevail against the staggering might of this ancient Ascian─the immortal and implacable Hades!
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Apr 6, 2023 14:05
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I know you're finished but you're writing like you forgot that the WoL was being deliberately weaponized by Emet as a potential super lightwarden that'd finish his job of destroying the First so it'd be absorbed... so yeah, we refuted his plan pretty hard there when we overcame and killed him.
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Apr 6, 2023 14:10
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on one hand he's evil but on the other hand he's hot so i'm on the fence about the whole situation
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Apr 6, 2023 14:11
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he's a stinky rat man
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Apr 6, 2023 14:20
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blatman posted:on one hand he's evil but on the other hand he's hot so i'm on the fence about the whole situation
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Apr 6, 2023 14:20
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he's not that hot
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Apr 6, 2023 14:21
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All the dialog options in the end of ShB are “I’m here partly because you shot my cat” or “gently caress you specifically Emet” (with a couple where you can be mad at both the Exarch and Emet). You’re primarily there to get your cat only if you make it that way. And also everyone’s platitudes about the worthiness of their life is… exactly refuting Emet’s point????
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Apr 6, 2023 14:22
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Zeruel posted:he's not that hot  Alert: bad post spotted.
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Apr 6, 2023 14:22
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What's worse, people that don't find E-S hot, or people that think the WoL should have joined his side
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Apr 6, 2023 14:23
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Tekopo posted:What's worse, people that don't find E-S hot, or people that think the WoL should have joined his side the actual answer here is obvious (genocide is bad imo) but also how can you not want to kiss that emo anime boy on his sweet cheeks
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Apr 6, 2023 14:27
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Cleretic posted:honestly, I don't really think they do. I'd put down three scenes that were potentially considered 'calling out Emet'. Like others have said, Emet just disagrees that you're human as he defines it, and there's not really a point arguing with him on that, fundamentally, because he is correct by the context of his definition. Did you want him to, like, say sorry, you're 100% correct, etc.? There's not much point rebuffing his argument because "I fundamentally don't consider you sapient" is not worth engaging with. You cannot make a conclusive counterpoint to that sort of ideology beyond "nuh-uh". Like, bluntly, what would actually be a denouncement of him and his crimes? He does not think his worldview is bad and he's probably not going to start. That you think his worldview is bad because you do not want him to kill you and all of your friends is so obvious that pointing it out would be stupid.
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Apr 6, 2023 14:31
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Maybe we should have engaged E-S in the markeplace of ideas and refuted his arguments in a lively and spirited debate. Prior to killing him, that is. While the clock is ticking and the WoL is about to die.
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Apr 6, 2023 14:34
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I would simply vote
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Apr 6, 2023 14:34
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https://twitter.com/Benedict__G/status/1642544414277922818?s=20 quiggy posted:the actual answer here is obvious (genocide is bad imo) but also how can you not want to kiss that emo anime boy on his sweet cheeks he's an old anime grandpa.
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Apr 6, 2023 14:43
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quiggy posted:I would simply vote 
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Apr 6, 2023 14:43
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Quote tweeting Emet-Selch and commenting "Uh, sir, this is a Wendy's"
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Apr 6, 2023 14:44
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I would die for Venat, but I won’t have to 
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Apr 6, 2023 14:46
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Chillgamesh posted:I would die for Venat, but I won’t have to Because I'm making you die for Zodiark instead!!! :warriorsay:
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Apr 6, 2023 14:56
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Awesome OClock posted:Yes, actually. I'm in pbc, not sure if you've got something on the discord. Its in our discord: https://discord.gg/coffinlid
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Apr 6, 2023 15:09
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super sweet best pal posted:I prefer to FATE grind from 70-90 because bicolor gem prizes are still worth mad gil on the MB. do fate groups still exist? thats why i havent gone to max out my levels, i figured no one was doing it
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Apr 6, 2023 15:40
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Please stop engaging with Cleretic on anything involving ShBDeviant posted:do fate groups still exist? thats why i havent gone to max out my levels, i figured no one was doing it
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Apr 6, 2023 15:45
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Blade Runner posted:Like others have said, Emet just disagrees that you're human as he defines it, and there's not really a point arguing with him on that, fundamentally, because he is correct by the context of his definition. Did you want him to, like, say sorry, you're 100% correct, etc.? There's not much point rebuffing his argument because "I fundamentally don't consider you sapient" is not worth engaging with. You cannot make a conclusive counterpoint to that sort of ideology beyond "nuh-uh". I know I said I was done, and I will be after this, but this is a good question worth answering, because I think people don't quite understand what I would've wanted. I want a proper, real 'gently caress you' to how terrible he has been in the long-term. No, I don't expect him to apologize, I expect him to die realizing he's terrible and lost, and I don't think the game provided enough barbs on that punch to really satisfy that. What's already there feels like a solid foundation, but I'd want something more to really be safisfied with it. Again, I think a factor here is that nobody fighting him has more than a tangential wound from his greater actions; sure, he's done a lot of bad, but it feels weirdly distant when the closest connection any Scion in that fight had to being harmed by him before he shot a motherfucker was... honestly, I don't even know; maybe the twins losing their grandpa, which never comes up in relation to him. Like I said, I think Lyse being there would've helped because she'd absolutely see, treat and attack him as 'the man that ruined my country'. Give some proper, immediate roots and face to the terrible things he did. Absent her... perhaps let the Exarch join in on that swing, maybe? Basically his whole life was defined by dealing with poo poo Emet Did, give him a more active role in driving that stake through than casting a spell to support us and then standing back. Alphinaud could absolutely hold his own on this one too just from the 'Political Science Major' angle, but you'd basically have to invent a whole new scene to give him that instead of edit an existing one, and I don't really know where you'd put it. But I also think all this is the way it is now for a reason, which goes into Endwalker stuff. Emet and his Shadowbringers 'woe be to Amaurot' story I think is the way it is because it was supposed to exist as an equal opposition to Venat's Endwalker story of 'Amaurot needed to fall through no fault of their own'. That conflict was clearly meant to be one where neither side was completely wrong (even if one became very wrong in the aftermath), but to be able to stand equal you need to game the presentation a little bit. And part of that is... well, not bringing up the whole 'Emet-Selch Is Wizard Hitler' thing too close to the actual argument, or else that will just become 'Wizard Hitler's Side' and therefore obviously the bad guys. I think they had to be light on Emet, because they knew they'd be going light on Venat. I can respect that angle, even if I can't follow it because I can't really drop the 'Wizard Hitler' thing to the degree they wanted me to. So yeah, I know why the story is the way it is, even if I don't like the way it is. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Apr 6, 2023 |
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Apr 6, 2023 15:51
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I'm the only one who thinks this discussion should be moved to the
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Apr 6, 2023 15:55
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The problem, I think, is that you cannot (Endwalker) really reason someone out of a point of view that they literally die, get plucked out of the great beyond, and go back to the great beyond saying "yeah, gently caress you, I'd do it all again 100%". At that point he is so loving committed (especially since the entire thing was his fault  ) that there's nothing to do other than put him down.Would it be nice if there was more of an explicit denunciation? I suppose. But the entirety of your travels in Shadowbringers and Endwalker are an implicit denunciation by virtue of you still existing. It is a very real exemplification of the idea of "existence is resistance". I also pretty aggressively disagree that (Endwalker) they were light-handed with Venat. If anything I thought they went too hard in the opposite direction, probably to appease the sorts of broke-brain idiots on the OF and similar that somehow think she's still the villain. But seriously, compare and contrast her behavior with Emet's and there's no comparison. She agrees that what she did had horrible effects but was necessary compared to his "well you don't matter therefore it's fine, gently caress you" horseshit, she's repentant where Emet has never shown a molecule of remorse for anything in his pathetic life, etc.
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Apr 6, 2023 15:57
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Cleretic posted:I know I said I was done, and I will be after this, but this is a good question worth answering, because I think people don't quite understand what I would've wanted. Well, you can't have that, and the game actively regards your desire for it as contemptible.
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Apr 6, 2023 15:59
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Personally, I think (Endwalker) that we have an entire thread for this and this page looks like a CIA document
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Apr 6, 2023 16:01
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:I'm the only one who thinks this discussion should be moved to the Honestly, yeah.
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Apr 6, 2023 16:14
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no discussion has ever successfully made it from here to the spoiler thread, which is good because it means the spoiler thread can remain for what it's really about (complaining about gridania)
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Apr 6, 2023 16:34
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Valentin posted:no discussion has ever successfully made it from here to the spoiler thread, which is good because it means the spoiler thread can remain for what it's really about (complaining about gridania) much like discord, telling people to move to a different place to talk about a thing just means they'll all shut the gently caress about a thing, which has its own merits
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Apr 6, 2023 16:35
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emet selch
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Apr 6, 2023 16:40
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more like emet felch
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Apr 6, 2023 16:52
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0 days since last woobie outbreak
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Apr 6, 2023 16:54
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Emet Sulk.
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