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What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| 🦋 |
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15 | 3.71% |
| 🦇 |
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115 | 28.47% |
| 🪰 |
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12 | 2.97% |
| 🐦 |
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67 | 16.58% |
| dragonfly |
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94 | 23.27% |
| 🦟 |
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14 | 3.47% |
| 🐝 |
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87 | 21.53% |
| Total: | 404 votes | ||
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Al-Saqr posted:part of me wonders whether this 'leak' is just a operation mincemeat style fake left behind to fool people. i dont think nato would ever allow their super ultra secret plans to be leaked online in this way without immediately finding and killing the person who leaked it. i am extremely skeptical. It all seems way too juicy. Every page of the presidential-level strategic sitrep got leaked to win an argument on 4chan? Immediate acknowledgement by the DoD and media instead of slamming the "Russian disinfo" button? From the Western media perspective there's nothing really embarrassing for Ukraine in it, and in fact it reinforces the narrative that Ukraine is taking negligible losses compared to Russia, which is more or less how they're judging who's winning the war. I think it's literally a psyop.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:05
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Vilas Kraut posted:Are there any examples of these actually being successful? Didn't the Polish do something like this when the red army had them pushed back to Warsaw?
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Apr 7, 2023 17:07
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the problem with assessing the truth of any given leak nowadays is that half of them are as stupid as this, so there really is no way to know
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Apr 7, 2023 17:19
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FF I have a serious question about your wife (lol, typing sentences like this will never get old): how many hours a week does she spend on work and work-related activities?
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Apr 7, 2023 17:22
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its the long easter weekend you dolts. FF is reading books and using chatgpt to write reports for tuesday. Pure unalienated labour.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:24
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genericnick posted:Didn't the Polish do something like this when the red army had them pushed back to Warsaw? I do not think it is appropriate to use Polish history as an example for Ukraine. Instead I believe we should liquidate all Polish traces. Destroy all walls in the Catholic Church and other Polish prayer houses. Destroy orchards and trees in the courtyards so that there will be no trace that someone lived there… Pay attention to the fact that when something remains that is Polish, then the Poles will have pretensions to our land.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:26
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OctaMurk posted:I have found that when ChatGPT is talking about stuff I don't know anything about, it's amazing. But when it's talking about stuff I'm very familiar with, it's full of poo poo now apply that to everyone you've ever trusted to give you information
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Apr 7, 2023 17:35
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OctaMurk posted:I have found that when ChatGPT is talking about stuff I don't know anything about, it's amazing. But when it's talking about stuff I'm very familiar with, it's full of poo poo Same as news reports. Same algorithm just implemented in code instead of people.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:36
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Orange Devil posted:FF I have a serious question about your wife (lol, typing sentences like this will never get old): how many hours a week does she spend on work and work-related activities? i assume she's on a rival forum that's the total ideological opposite of this (not gbs, that would be disrespectful) posting huge excerpts about rules based international orders
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Apr 7, 2023 17:37
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Vilas Kraut posted:Are there any examples of these actually being successful? Note that all of the examples had some initial succes. Might be important to keep in mind if Ukraine actually jumps off in a month.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:39
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yeah the first days of the Ardennes offensive made it look like the allies were utterly spent. They could do nothing but fall back, utterly shattered. A great opening for what turned into one of the most pointless loss of men and materials for the Germans.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:42
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supersnowman posted:Why does it looks like Ukraine not only took at least some of the Nazi party way of doing politics but also the flawed part of the military strategy by engaging in useless high-risk offensive? In Carrying the War to the Enemy: American Operational Art to 1945, Matheny argues that America threw away their own, winning, art of operations to adopt the losing, German, methods. By 1945 America had developed a comprehensive military doctrine that aimed to project, conduct, and sustain large-scale operations to achieve strategic objectives. American officers first recognized the need for a modern operational art during the interwar period, and developed this from the French general staff system they were tutored in during the Great War. The interwar military school system provided officers with the opportunity to study and develop their profession, with a significant emphasis on history as a fundamental way to educate students. Here too, it was developed from the demanding French military educational system. The key elements of American operational art centred on theater structure, jointness, phasing, and establishing a firm connection to both tactical and strategic objectives. American operational art played to American strengths and military tradition, including the republic's great economic strength and ability to raise forces sufficient to provide continuous concentric pressure to overwhelm enemies. The decline of American operational art after 1945 was due to the advent of the atomic bomb, which left the army struggling to find strategic relevance, and the overestimation of the impact of airpower in limited wars that followed World War II. Under the shadow of airpower and the resumption of interservice rivalry, the services ignored or forgot many of the operational lessons of World War II, which led to an inevitable decline in American operational art. Jointness faded into bureaucratic interservice rivalry over budgets and service goals, and interest in joint doctrine did not emerge until after the passage of the Goldwater-Nichols Act in 1986. The stalemate in Korea and the failure in Vietnam suggested that while technology gave the United States an advantage at the tactical level, at the operational and strategic level military performance was flawed. This prompted the army to rediscover operational art after 1973, leading to an intense review of military theory and doctrine. In 1982, the U.S. Army officially recognized operational art as a distinct level of war, which became a permanent part of U.S. military doctrine. Operational art had been part of an earlier renaissance rooted in the professional military education of the interwar period, which found decisive expression in World War II. But! They didn't rediscover their own operational art. You see, something had happened in the interim. Citino describes a very important moment in Death of the Wehrmacht "What happened in the summer and fall campaigns of 1942 was more significant than just a temporary setback for the German army. The traditional German way of war that had been in place for centuries was no longer valid. The maneuver-based Bewegungskrieg, the independence of subordinate commanders, and the belief in war as an art were all challenged and revealed to be ineffective. The German army's war of movement failed in the Soviet Union, and it was ill-equipped to handle the challenges presented in the southern front. The Wehrmacht's ornate repertoire of maneuver was met with overwhelming material superiority, and defeat in both theaters looked like an exercise in an industrial shop class. German defeat was less like an art and more like helpless raw materials being torn to shreds in a drill press." Needless to say, this was a very traumatic moment. "Like any deep-rooted historical phenomenon, however, Bewegungskrieg died hard. It resisted both the foibles of Hitler's personality as well as the more complex systemic factors that were working against it. Those haunting arrows on the situation maps will remain, fixed permanently to the map of our historical consciousness, as a reminder of what a near-run thing it was: the 13th Panzer Division, operating under a brand-new commander, just a single mile outside of Ordzhonikidze and still driving forward; Hube's 3rd Panzer Division slashing out of its Don bridgehead and lunging to the Volga in a single bound, reaching the northern edge of the Stalingrad suburbs; German pioneers, bristling with flamethrowers and satchel charges, blasting one Soviet defensive position after another to smithereens and driving grimly for the riverbank just a few hundred yards away; Rommel's right wing at Alam Haifa, a mere half hour's ride by armored car from Alexandria. Rarely have the advance guards of a defeated army ever come so tantalizingly close to their strategic objectives." The most modern, critical, scholar of the German art of war can't help but wax romantic about it. Imagine for a minute, what the situation was like between 1973-82, decades before The Blitzkrieg Myth or Monty's Men, or any of the in-depth comparisons of the Wehrmacht to the Western Allies, let alone the opening of the Soviet Archives. Who was writing histories of operational warfare? The Germans who were traumatized by 1942 and were perennially looking back on how close they'd come in their memoirs, which were required reading for US officers. The NATO Chief of Staff and a huge amount of his subordinate staff officers were West German. Where do you suppose they had learned their trade? Remember that the American Art of Operations, like much of the American Army that fought in WW2 was originally based on the French Army. America looking back at operations took place decades before there were English language reappraisals of the French Army in WW2, the reality of Blitzkrieg and so on. Everybody assumed, categorically, that everything German c. 1940 was superior to everything French. Before 1940, just like before 1871, the French Army had been the one everyone imitated. Again, this was how America created a 20th century army and won the First World War. Every modern piece of American artillery, which was instrumental to how they won the Second World War (Brute Force: Allied Strategy and Tactics in the Second World War) was based on a French design. The idea of using steel instead of flesh on the attack, pushing that firepower down to the section level with rifle grenades and light machine guns, that was all French too. Once they were defeated in 1940, everyone assumed you must imitate the Germans and discard the French, just like how the Chilean Army switched from a Napoleonic uniform and kepi to pickelhaube after 1871. Hence a generation of NATO infantrymen having to lug around heavy GPMGs because of the MG-42. Now, keep in mind too that what was considered "outdated" and "French" was in actuality modern, and had been continuously developed by American officers, it didn't matter. How can this all be explained? Well, here's what Citino says: “And so ended World War II in Europe. What Rommel had called the “unequal struggle” had mercifully come to an end. The war that Hitler started and the Wehrmacht conducted so tenaciously killed at least 50 million people and destroyed a continent, all for naught. Hitler was dead. Germany was occupied and divided, a pariah among nations for its crimes, especially the attempted genocide against the Jews. The war shattered Germany’s reputation, transforming the land of Dichter und Denker (the poet and the thinker) to the land of Richter und Henker (the judge and the hangman). The country has yet to live down that reputation, and it probably never will. Anytime the reunited Germany—today a robust and powerful player in Europe—performs some controversial act on the international scene, someone will throw down the word “Nazi.” The German experience in World War II should be an object lesson against the notion of “rolling the iron dice” and resorting to a war of aggression. And yet, for all the pain and suffering it caused, the Wehrmacht emerged from the war with its reputation intact. Its victories early in the war—Case White in Poland, Exercise Weser in Scandinavia, Case Yellow in the west, Operation Mercury, the airborne conquest of Crete—will always stand as innovative examples of modern mechanized operations. German generals rushed into print with their memoirs, and those written by Guderian, Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, and staff officer Friedrich Wilhelm von Mellenthin won a vast and fascinated reading audience in the West among those eager to learn the secrets of blitzkrieg. Likewise, a large body of popular West German authors like Franz Kurowski, Erich Kern, Jürgen Thorwald, and above all Paul Carell extolled the fighting qualities of the army, the level of comradeship within the ranks, and its heroic struggle against the odds. Their publishers were affiliated with the political far right, and they often wrote under pseudonyms to hide their past—either as soldiers of the Wehrmacht or as officials of the Nazi regime—but these details mattered little in the English-speaking West. All these authors painted a picture of commanders of genius and a heroic army with “clean hands,” that is to say, men who would never have dreamed of carrying out atrocities against civilians and who condemned in no uncertain terms the Nazi Party and SS monsters who did so. With the West locked in a frightening new struggle against global communism, the Wehrmacht looked not so much like a former enemy but rather a forerunner: the first to take on the Red Army and the only force in the world with deep experience fighting the Russians. Wehrmacht worship in the West reached a peak in the 1980s, as the US Army began rereading Clausewitz, studying the campaigns of Moltke the Elder, and rediscovering Königgrätz and Case Yellow.” So, you have the following sequence of events:
In the end, a strange irony emerged from the ashes of history. The United States, once a proud nation that had honed its operational art under French guidance and achieved military supremacy, found itself drawn to the shadow of its former enemy. The Wehrmacht, once vanquished and vilified, now cast a beguiling spell over American military thought, weaving a tale of tactical brilliance that's still with us today. Despite a parade of triumphs made possible through American doctrine, built on concentric and overwhelming force, the tide of postwar opinion began to turn against it. The Blitzkrieg Myth, a seductive narrative born from France's shocking defeat in 1940, turned heads and raised questions about the victorious American way of war. The memoirs of former Wehrmacht officers, filled with tales of martial prowess and tactical ingenuity, only served to fan the flames of this burgeoning fascination. The great battles of World War II, where American forces had consistently bested their German counterparts, were now recast in a romantic light, their victories overshadowed by the tantalizing allure of German feats of arms that had almost succeeded. Steady planning, force buildup, and deliberate execution – hallmarks of the American operational history – paled in comparison to the mythologized German accounts of daring gambles, audacious spearheads, and high watermarks. By the 1980s, when the US Army began looking at operations again, nearly anything written on the subject romanticized the Wehrmacht and disparaged the Western Allies for "merely" using brute force. Never mind that entailed harnessing industry on an unprecedented scale, mastering global logistics, creating, training and assembling a war winning force, then applying it so that when the time and place of the battle was decided, the US Army beat the Wehrmacht nearly every single time. That Allied operations nearly always succeeded after 1942 was practically counted against them, as if a successful plan undermined the personal brilliance of a good commander. Market-Garden, the Allied operation most in the German mold, was also the most romanticized in this era. The Allied record of success didn't have the same appeal as a string of near things, and so the planners of the 80's were seduced by the siren song of the Wehrmacht and its storied operational art. The US operational art was not just discarded, replaced by a new vision inspired by the very enemy they had once defeated, but some authors like Martin Van Creveld denied it even existed. The consequences of this shift would reverberate throughout the decades to come, a testament to the power of myth and the sway of historical narratives.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:44
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lollontee posted:the problem with assessing the truth of any given leak nowadays is that half of them are as stupid as this, so there really is no way to know It's very fishy. It's like if the Afghanistan Papers were leaked and it gave a glowing assessment of the ANA.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:48
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Turtle Watch posted:Her grumpy orc neighbor has the best buns in town - and his baked goods aren’t bad either! SOLD!!! 
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Apr 7, 2023 17:48
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that poor orc just wants to bake but white women keep grinding on him!
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Apr 7, 2023 17:53
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what does concentric mean in that context FF
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Apr 7, 2023 17:54
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sum posted:It all seems way too juicy. Every page of the presidential-level strategic sitrep got leaked to win an argument on 4chan? Immediate acknowledgement by the DoD and media instead of slamming the "Russian disinfo" button? From the Western media perspective there's nothing really embarrassing for Ukraine in it, and in fact it reinforces the narrative that Ukraine is taking negligible losses compared to Russia, which is more or less how they're judging who's winning the war. I think it's literally a psyop. Eh dude they are supposedly firing a 1000 shells of 155mm ammo a day back in March. As it is real or not, it will be debatable but at the same time I don’t know who they are fooling or why beyond some controversy over casualties (which doesn’t fit into the rest of the document). According to them their big offensive will be 9-12 brigades of a hodgepodge of equipment, I don’t know how that is a great thing. ———— Arguably the gearing of the US military being toward German rather than French theory, arguably it was both ideological (versus the Soviets) but also technological. By the mid-1970s, the US finally had an advantage in the air versus the Soviets and therefore could theoretically force more than a defensive doctrine in their eyes at least. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 18:05 on Apr 7, 2023 |
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Apr 7, 2023 17:55
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I support putin
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Apr 7, 2023 17:59
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sum posted:It all seems way too juicy. Every page of the presidential-level strategic sitrep got leaked to win an argument on 4chan? Immediate acknowledgement by the DoD and media instead of slamming the "Russian disinfo" button? From the Western media perspective there's nothing really embarrassing for Ukraine in it, and in fact it reinforces the narrative that Ukraine is taking negligible losses compared to Russia, which is more or less how they're judging who's winning the war. I think it's literally a psyop. Wrong! It was leaked on a Minecraft Discord https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1644375234433122305?t=F0Mv5YcisbnhFQc5xgPJiQ&s=19
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Apr 7, 2023 18:01
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I'm deciding if I want to waste time trying to translate dumb posts, or play more civ 5.
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Apr 7, 2023 18:01
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Orange Devil posted:FF I have a serious question about your wife (lol, typing sentences like this will never get old): how many hours a week does she spend on work and work-related activities? 60ish, but she also makes significantly more than me. I have a theory that since it's economic policy it's less work work, based on volume of reading, which is the only metric I care about. Tankbuster posted:its the long easter weekend you dolts. FF is reading books and using chatgpt to write reports for tuesday. Pure unalienated labour. Exactly right. I'm still trying to train one to do my work for me, these things are not really that smart. Regarde Aduck posted:i assume she's on a rival forum that's the total ideological opposite of this (not gbs, that would be disrespectful) posting huge excerpts about rules based international orders r/PersonalFinanceCanada r/CanadianInvestor r/Economics r/CanadaPublicServants Comedy option r/neoliberal
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Apr 7, 2023 18:02
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Frosted Flake posted:Comedy option The real comedy option is that she's on r/quebec complaining about Quebec bashing.
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Apr 7, 2023 18:05
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Not So Fast posted:Wrong! It was leaked on a Minecraft Discord looks like Minecraft is joining Warthunder as something that disqualifies you from security clearances
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Apr 7, 2023 18:05
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https://twitter.com/Ade0na2020/status/1644381983412482048 The plot thickens...
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Apr 7, 2023 18:09
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bedpan posted:looks like Minecraft is joining Warthunder as something that disqualifies you from security clearances Some dude was probably trying to prove Ukraine was winning the war.
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Apr 7, 2023 18:09
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Frosted Flake posted:60ish Is she Protestant? Y'all need to calm the gently caress down.
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Apr 7, 2023 18:11
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https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1644385195238227982 lmfao
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Apr 7, 2023 18:12
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lobster shirt posted:what does concentric mean in that context FF The Western Allies didn't try to use a single spearhead to win the whole drat war:           
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Apr 7, 2023 18:12
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well they're looking more and more legit but i guess we'll see this kinda possible misinfo is weird because in a couple of months the truth will be laid bare either this is the last charge of Ukraine's light brigade or Russia made some poo poo up and then they lose a load more territory and look like dumb shits again. Like I guess it's to confuse people higher up the chain than us nobodies but i'd expect the Russian military to have access to intel that could instantly tell if this is legit or not. So if it's not to fool Russia then who?
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Apr 7, 2023 18:12
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Starting to think that AI can only mimic the first order functions of the human brain, and needs to work up to second order or higher derivatives before it can start mimicking logic or something.
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Apr 7, 2023 18:13
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sum posted:It all seems way too juicy. Every page of the presidential-level strategic sitrep got leaked to win an argument on 4chan? Immediate acknowledgement by the DoD and media instead of slamming the "Russian disinfo" button? From the Western media perspective there's nothing really embarrassing for Ukraine in it, and in fact it reinforces the narrative that Ukraine is taking negligible losses compared to Russia, which is more or less how they're judging who's winning the war. I think it's literally a psyop. it could be psyop but why do they keep releasing psyops targeting the public? no one in the us cares and everyone in Europe is already fully on board. there’s no way they could get Russia to think that someone this stupid slipped by all of their spies and intelligence gathering and got caught by a ny times journalist. I don’t even know how to interpret it. it’s existence means nothing because anything that insecure and real Russia already knew and anything that insecure and fake could be easily discounted as planted. it’s leak(intentional or not) is purely for public consumption. but why ?
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Apr 7, 2023 18:13
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FF you or the wife have any research handy on game theory studies for info leaks??
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Apr 7, 2023 18:14
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Vomik posted:but why ? Have you considered that a lot of people are dumb as poo poo? Including, perhaps even especially, those in positions of power and influence? The result is a stupid, stupid world.
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Apr 7, 2023 18:15
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Vomik posted:it could be psyop but why do they keep releasing psyops targeting the public? no one in the us cares and everyone in Europe is already fully on board. I think whoever hypothesized that it's misinfo intended to muddy the waters was probably correct.
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Apr 7, 2023 18:15
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I always get a laugh about this like, literal Indiana Jones comic book villain looking Nazi not only existing in real life, but being in NATO with a straight face. lol
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Apr 7, 2023 18:15
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FF you're not going to get in trouble for reading all these leaked docs I hope
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Apr 7, 2023 18:15
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there's also the possibility is that none of this poo poo is really "needed" but is produced because people have to justify their budgets and there's virtually no oversight into how any money is spent when it comes to defense a ton of defense related things seem to be make-work projects because you can juice the numbers of money being spent on the war while concealing how much material supplies are actually making it over there
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Apr 7, 2023 18:17
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Tom Guycot posted:I always get a laugh about this like, literal Indiana Jones comic book villain looking Nazi not only existing in real life, but being in NATO with a straight face. being in charge of nato
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Apr 7, 2023 18:17
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zelinskyy will march to the pacific ocean and weep, for there will be no more worlds to conquer
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Apr 7, 2023 18:17
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Not So Fast posted:Wrong! It was leaked on a Minecraft Discord already down
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Apr 7, 2023 18:18
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