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fadam posted:What is the best clone? Phimage? Phyrexian Metamorph? Croaking Counterpart because frog
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Apr 8, 2023 20:21
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https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/march-of-the-machine-release-notes You can use the inherent triggered ability of a siege going to 0 defense counters to transform double-faced cards copying them... but you need to put a defense counter on the permanent beforehand so it won't go to the graveyard for having no defense counters on it. quote:If a permanent that is represented by a transforming double-faced card becomes a copy of a Siege, it will be exiled as that Siege's triggered ability resolves, then it will be cast transformed. Note that this applies only to transforming double-faced cards, not to modal double-faced cards that can normally be played using either face.
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Apr 8, 2023 20:38
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I really don't think being instant is enough to save a 4 mana clone spell that can sometimes be a 4 mana fork. Cloning your own invoke dispair would be barely better than casting a second one and cloning an enemy one is almost certainly worse than just countering it and being up on mana to do something else. Decks only ever play clone effects if you're doing something specific with it and if you want that effect you want it for cheaper and likely to be able to flicker or bounce it rather than maybe copy a spell.
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Apr 8, 2023 20:47
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it's commander bait, you play it and soon realize you can't hit shrouded/warded etc. targets like other clones can
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Apr 8, 2023 20:49
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Can tokens also meld now, then? My urza control deck just got a lot better
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Apr 8, 2023 21:25
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precision posted:Can tokens also meld now, then? My urza control deck just got a lot better They still go into exile at the start of the process and then poof out of existence because they're tokens
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Apr 8, 2023 21:31
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Sylvian Wastes posted:https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/march-of-the-machine-release-notes So now if I copy a transforming Saga with Kaya, Intangible Slayer, the token will flip after getting 3 counters? Nice.
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Apr 8, 2023 21:57
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precision posted:Can tokens also meld now, then? My urza control deck just got a lot better Meld cards and transforming double-faced Cards are separate categories, and the rule change only affects the latter.
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Apr 8, 2023 22:07
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Well that sucks
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Apr 8, 2023 22:16
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yeah, duh, obviously.. haha. thanks. so basically some solemnity-like card (not solemnity cause it doesn't target battles) won't work? Silhouette posted:So now if I copy a transforming Saga with Kaya, Intangible Slayer, the token will flip after getting 3 counters? don't most sagas exile in the 3rd chapter? the token will disappear if its exiled. it needs to be transformed.
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Apr 8, 2023 22:24
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poo poo, I think you're right. Why the gently caress are there like 7 different variations in the same goddamn effect, wotc? Clean up the transform rules plz
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Apr 8, 2023 22:27
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Silhouette posted:poo poo, I think you're right. Why the gently caress are there like 7 different variations in the same goddamn effect, wotc? Clean up the transform rules plz There are three: Meld, transform, and mdfc. Convert, for the Transformer cards, and day/nightbiund are a variant on transform. Tokens can't meld, and there's no way to flip an mdfc anyways so they don't really interact with tokens differently than you expect. 701.37b Only two cards belonging to the same meld pair can be melded. Tokens, cards that aren’t meld cards, or meld cards that don’t form a meld pair can’t be melded.
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Apr 8, 2023 22:51
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Strong Sauce posted:yeah, duh, obviously.. haha. thanks. Correct, if you somehow get them into play without counters they won't insta-flip. That's true on the kamigawa sagas, they exile themselves and then return transformed.
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Apr 8, 2023 22:55
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There's meld, "convert", flip, normal transform and exile then etb transformed which is way too goddamn many for what should just be one mechanic MDFC doesn't count because it's technically two separate cards, convert is just Hasbro being overly defensive about the transformers copyright and flip was transform before double sided cards became a thing Day/Nightbound is just a mechanic that triggers a card to transform, and also some cards have day/Nightbound but have triggered abilities that aren't Transform
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Apr 8, 2023 22:58
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the reason why some cards exile and re-enter transformed and why some just transform is that sometimes they want to preserve everything modifying the permanent and sometimes they want to reset it. it's an important distinction
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Apr 8, 2023 23:06
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also the naive bit that transformed creatures will get summoning sickness if they leave play to transform
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Apr 8, 2023 23:08
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Most of those things are easy to keep distinct ime... the only thing that seems so inelegant is that there are two different categories of werewolves with different rules for counting spells in terms of transforming. I guess it is a good thing that almost none of them are playable in eternal formats lol
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Apr 8, 2023 23:18
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mossyfisk posted:When was the last clone that didn't get ETBs? The sword from ONE
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Apr 8, 2023 23:23
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Most of those things are easy to keep distinct ime... the only thing that seems so inelegant is that there are two different categories of werewolves with different rules for counting spells in terms of transforming. I guess it is a good thing that almost none of them are playable in eternal formats lol I like Daybound in theory, but I just know that if I was playing with paper I’d forget to keep track of the day cycle. All the time on Arena i get caught off guard when day changes to night multiple turns after a werewolf was last on the battlefield.
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Apr 8, 2023 23:37
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HootTheOwl posted:There are three: i played a lot in the 90s and only really got back into magic by playing arena during early covid times. i noticed that this list doesn't include morph or emerge which i have seen referenced on a couple of things but can tokens morph or emerge?
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Apr 8, 2023 23:37
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if double-faced sagas just transformed.. they would keep their lore counters right? i guess exiling it gets rid of them. also re the MID wolves: does this new change in tokens mean copied token versions of daybound/nightbound creatures now transform with the day/night cycle instead of staying on the day or nightside? i think the previous rule was it basically could not transform so nothing would happen if the switched to day or night.
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Apr 8, 2023 23:38
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ram dass in hell posted:i played a lot in the 90s and only really got back into magic by playing arena during early covid times. i noticed that this list doesn't include morph or emerge which i have seen referenced on a couple of things but can tokens morph or emerge? As for morph, there's two things here. The first is to be cast as a morph which, no, tokens can't really do for the same reasons as above. The second part is turning a thing face down (to make it a 2/2) which is something they can do. It's just a status, like phasing. quote:701.28b Although transforming a permanent uses the same physical action as turning a permanent face up or face down, they are different game actions. Abilities that trigger when a permanent is turned face down won’t trigger when that permanent transforms, and so on.
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Apr 8, 2023 23:58
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https://twitter.com/bomattcourier/status/1644392990255742984?s=46&t=IJdqhSwMmIFqfaKy_5md2g Hoot, what’s your take on this?
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Apr 9, 2023 03:27
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Suspend only cards don't have a mana value, so even mv=0 won't work
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Apr 9, 2023 03:56
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Silhouette posted:Suspend only cards don't have a mana value, so even mv=0 won't work Then why do they hit off cascade? Is no mana value defined as less than all other mana values?
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Apr 9, 2023 04:06
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Yeah it has a mana value of 0 https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=464109 Crashing Footfalls has no mana cost. You can't cast it unless an effect (such as that of suspend) allows you to cast it for an alternative cost or without paying its mana cost. Its mana value is 0.
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Apr 9, 2023 04:14
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the issue isnt the mana value of a suspend card, its the fact that halo forager is a reflexive triggered ability (meaning you have to pay the cost BEFORE the actual effect hits the stack, and then said effect checks whether you paid), the worry is that "paying 0 mana" doesnt count, esp since the release notes say "if you paid mana". my offhand guess would be its fine and the release note is just not written clearly but only wotc can say for sure
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Apr 9, 2023 04:23
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snyprmag posted:Then why do they hit off cascade? Is no mana value defined as less than all other mana values? Cascade is a stupid broken mechanic with its own set of stupid rules caveats for some reason
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Apr 9, 2023 04:32
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Kagaya Homoraisan posted:the issue isnt the mana value of a suspend card, its the fact that halo forager is a reflexive triggered ability (meaning you have to pay the cost BEFORE the actual effect hits the stack, and then said effect checks whether you paid), the worry is that "paying 0 mana" doesnt count, esp since the release notes say "if you paid mana". my offhand guess would be its fine and the release note is just not written clearly but only wotc can say for sure It should work, the release notes just aren't clearly worded. The reflexive trigger will trigger off you choosing to pay {X}, whether or not that payment involves you actually paying mana. Compare with Moonveil Regent - you can choose to discard your hand even if it's empty, and the reflexive trigger will still happen.
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Apr 9, 2023 04:58
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I just want to say that Rona being the U->UB legendary Phyrexian is a total cop-out. She's been UB on her last two cards; all the other cards in the cycle were monocolor previously. The added color is the corruption!
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Apr 9, 2023 05:40
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i mean, it'd feel weird if rona _didn't_ get a card and she probably was one of the first in the cycle to get pinned down
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Apr 9, 2023 06:04
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Jabor posted:It should work, the release notes just aren't clearly worded. that is my thought process too but i would not put it past wotc to say actually, no. its worth asking either way at the very least
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Apr 9, 2023 06:44
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fadam posted:https://twitter.com/bomattcourier/status/1644392990255742984?s=46&t=IJdqhSwMmIFqfaKy_5md2g My take is that it works, just because you chose zero doesn't mean your didn't pay the cost. I mean think if it didn't, how would you ever cast an ornithopter? "Sorry the notes say you need to pay mana to cast spells and you didn't!"
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Apr 9, 2023 14:15
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Silhouette posted:Suspend only cards don't have a mana value, so even mv=0 won't work They do have a Mana value, what they don't have is a Mana cost. A null mana cost is unpayable, which is why you have to use something like suspend to get special permission to cast them. However, getting a Mana Value from null will result in a Mana Value of zero. Kagaya Homoraisan posted:the issue isnt the mana value of a suspend card, its the fact that halo forager is a reflexive triggered ability (meaning you have to pay the cost BEFORE the actual effect hits the stack, and then said effect checks whether you paid), the worry is that "paying 0 mana" doesnt count, esp since the release notes say "if you paid mana". my offhand guess would be its fine and the release note is just not written clearly but only wotc can say for sure Right: does choosing and paying zero count as paying in order to trigger the second trigger? I say yes because 0 is a payable cost (see my example with ornithopter) Silhouette posted:Cascade is a stupid broken mechanic with its own set of stupid rules caveats for some reason There is like one caveat with cascade and it's "you have found a card, is the spell from that card still sometime you could cascade into?" HootTheOwl fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 14:25
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FWIW you could test this on Arena right now if you wanted, by checking whether Isareth the Awakener can return an Ornithopter to the battlefield. It's literally the same "you may pay {X}. When you do..." wording.
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Apr 9, 2023 14:34
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Ornithopter has a cost
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Apr 9, 2023 18:06
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Yeah but you're not paying the cost, so it's not the relevant part of this question.
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Apr 9, 2023 18:11
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Oh there was a follow-up https://twitter.com/BomattCourier/status/1644798085342670848
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Apr 9, 2023 18:13
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God I really wish they had never printed those suspend cards lol
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Apr 9, 2023 18:57
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suspend is a neat mechanic and its interaction with cascade is cool imo
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Apr 9, 2023 20:33
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