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Papercut posted:Millennials will probably be freaking out about polyamory I mean "Millenials" are nearing or in their 40s. They already have children. The ones who are left leaning are going to have opinions similar to ITT. The ones who don't are living in conservative enclaves and are actively freaking out about trans issues and abortion like everyone else in their cohort. For better or worse while drag queens and trans athletes may seem like an old person problem it's probably going to be inherited by their millennial children. Gen Z though, I got no idea.
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Apr 9, 2023 18:53
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Mellow Seas posted:Nah Nazis and fascists were the actual threat the Greatest faced as young people, and beat the poo poo out of to earn their name. Then they came home and had babies and spent 20 years scared of their kids either becoming communists or being nuked by communists while treating their PTSD with alcoholism. This phenomenon seems pretty tied to the pax americana and the general sense that politics was a settled question so that cultural variation was the only thing left to think about. The last 20 years have already been far more interesting than that. The culture war about lgbtq things is driven largely by media discourse. It’s the brain-poisoned idle who consume twitter/cable news all day taking school boards hostage and shooting up the supermarket. Well, them and the people courting their vote. I don’t see it growing beyond that to consume everyone’s attention in the same way as anticommunism or segregation, but maybe mass culture was always exactly that.
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Apr 9, 2023 18:57
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Framboise posted:It's this. This is where I am and, sadly, has been my experience since I've been eligible to vote. The first ballot I ever cast was for Michael "how am I losing to this guy?" Dukakis and every single year it's felt like I'm voting for the lesser of two evils. The only candidates I was even mildly enthusiastic about were Al Gore and certainly Barrack Obama, who to me at the time, seemed transformative. Joke was on me. My appreciation for Gore was also more retroactive than in the moment as I learned more about him and aided by the ghoulish loving disaster of the GWB administration, where I wonder what might have been and how different the world might be had Gore won that one. Maybe not as different as I like to think but, at a minimum, I don't think we get an Iraq war and we certainly would have gotten some earlier movement on climate change. I wonder too what the whole overall reaction to 9/11 might have been. In the meantime, I find myself having trouble generating much passion for the likes of John Kerry, Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton so I can only imagine how much more lukewarm a younger voter might feel for the candidates the DNC keeps turning out. SpeedFreek posted:The general attitude I have seen is both parties suck or it wont affect me so I'm not voting, now that the dog has caught the car its been chasing there is plain as can be proof that at least one republican policy goal will negatively impact them or someone they care about. That's why many including myself thought the republicans would keep Roe V Wade while campaigning against it as a wedge issue, because they knew how much it would motivate people against them if they did get it struck down. It's also due to the generational influence of RWM and talk radio. The true believers ARE the base now and even Republicans who know all that stuff is mostly bullshit have to play along and cater to them to even win a primary. I suppose that's what you meant by "caught the car". People like Jesse Helms used to be outliers and viewed as pariahs but now you've got MTG, Desantis, Santos, Boebert, etc. as the mainstream, culminating in Trump and his cult. And the problem with younger, more liberal voters has always been that young people simply don't turn out to vote - so those figures suggesting that they are increasing participation are encouraging. Still, it's hard for me to imagine they're particular;y fired up about Sleepy Joe or Kamala Harris. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 19:15
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Mellow Seas posted:Satanic Panic started in the 80s, so figure the concerned parents tended to be 30-50 years old (usually parents start freaking out about these things when their kids are a bit older and they feel like they're losing control over them, so somewhere around 6-16 depending on the family.) That means they would've been mostly born between the early 30s and mid-50s, so boomers definitely got in on that action, yeah. This isn't true at all, though. The core of the Satanic Panic focused heavily on daycares and preschools. It was driven by a rising awareness of child abuse, encouraged by a little industry of self-proclaimed abuse experts pushing into the relatively new and untested field of social work with extremely dubious theories and techniques, and played out against the backdrop of the new right-wing fundamentalist movement that had come together in the late 70s as a backlash against the progressivism of the era. This is the problem with boiling things down to simple "well, each generation had a boogeyman" talk. It may seem true when you're looking at things with about as much analysis and accuracy as a Cracked Dot Com article, but each of these movements emerged in response to specific cultural trends and shifts, not just each generation looking for one and only one thing to hate.
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Apr 9, 2023 21:25
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BiggerBoat posted:This is where I am and, sadly, has been my experience since I've been eligible to vote. It doesn't help that, with the exception of Obama, the Dems will gleefully knife anybody that voters DO get excited about and then told "No, you hated that guy. THIS is the person you always loved!", and Obama probably only got away with it because he was only talking the talk and never intended to walk the walk.
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Apr 9, 2023 21:41
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Main Paineframe posted:This is the problem with boiling things down to simple "well, each generation had a boogeyman" talk. It may seem true when you're looking at things with about as much analysis and accuracy as a Cracked Dot Com article, but each of these movements emerged in response to specific cultural trends and shifts, not just each generation looking for one and only one thing to hate. Settle down Beavis, I wasn’t attempting substantive analysis. You might as well attack the “methodology” of a Cosmo survey. Mellow Seas posted:Obviously generational classification is a bunch of hooey but it's fun to play with the numbers. E: I do appreciate the point of clarification re: the social dynamics of the panic so thanks for that. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 21:52
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The idea that the mostly entirely online mockery of furries was in some way equivalent to the red scare, satanic panic, or the gay/trans moral panic is genuinely a little insulting lol Like, yeah you probably shouldn't bully people for being furries or whatever, but it's not an equivalent cultural panic. Saagonsa fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 22:12
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Saagonsa posted:The idea that the mostly entirely online mockery of furries was in some way equivalent to the red scare, satanic panic, or the gay/trans moral panic is genuinely a little insulting lol Memorable relevant Tim Krieder cartoon: 
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Apr 9, 2023 22:21
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Main Paineframe posted:This isn't true at all, though. The core of the Satanic Panic focused heavily on daycares and preschools. It was driven by a rising awareness of child abuse, encouraged by a little industry of self-proclaimed abuse experts pushing into the relatively new and untested field of social work with extremely dubious theories and techniques, and played out against the backdrop of the new right-wing fundamentalist movement that had come together in the late 70s as a backlash against the progressivism of the era. It's also relevant that these things didn't exist in some kind of generation locked vacuum either. While the Satanic Panic pulled back hard in the 90s it continued strong in many small communities that were vulnerable to it. Fear of communist agents in our midst may not be as pitched as it once was but it definitely still exists even now. There are teenagers, right now, who believe magic the gathering is an attempt by Satan to lure them into sin. It may not be a widespread belief but only because it is not a useful belief.
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Apr 9, 2023 22:44
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Saagonsa posted:The idea that the mostly entirely online mockery of furries was in some way equivalent to the red scare, satanic panic, or the gay/trans moral panic is genuinely a little insulting lol Among LGBTQ+ I've seen an impression there's a younger group/generation that's put off by sex positivity among LGBTQ+, stuff like not wanting "kink in pride" (keeping BDSM-ish stuff away from pride parades) or just generally being kind of puritanical. Like I think I've seen the term "tenderqueer" used to describe that sort of type of person. I don't think it's totally out there to consider that furries could be used as a cultural panic to push this sort of divide among a generation that is friendly towards LGBTQ+ but might be inclined to bite on "sex/kink bad" tropes, not entirely like how you have gay people who aren't supportive of bisexuality or transgender identity.
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Apr 9, 2023 22:54
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Main Paineframe posted:This isn't true at all, though. The core of the Satanic Panic focused heavily on daycares and preschools. It was driven by a rising awareness of child abuse,[b] encouraged by a little industry of self-proclaimed abuse experts pushing into the relatively new and untested field of social work with extremely dubious theories and techniques, and played out against the backdrop of the new right-wing fundamentalist movement that had come together in the late 70s as a backlash against the progressivism of the era. Uhhh...no? Not really. Or not at all as far as I remember. I was a teenager in the 80's who played D&D and listened to a little bit of metal and I never ran up on anything from my friends' parents that may have worried about the poo poo Geraldo and morning talk show was on about that riled up housewife moms with the motivations that you're describing. I never once heard any adult/parent talk even once about those things, nor address the abuses of the catholic church or daycare and preschools at all for that matter. It was the imagery, song lyrics and poo poo like album covers or pictures that seemed provocative on TV for Concerned Mothers who had no idea what their kids read or listened to. They were mostly on about artists like Ozzy Osbourne and Judas Priest (who were actually sued for a kid's suicide) and also a little bit up in arms about a long debunked suicide story about a kid who played D&D that was turned into a Tom Hanks TB movie called Mazes and Monsters. The whole thing was stupid. Demons and devils were in the D&D Monster Manual so, naturally, that led all us kids to devil worship and bands like Priest, Iron Maiden and a few others seemed "evil" to concerned moms. There were accusations of backwards masking and subliminal messages in the music. The PMRC became a thing once artists like Prince and Madonna raised the stakes on sexuality in music and a few metal bands got caught up in that net from a different angle. But none of it was much centered around what you describe. At least the Satanic Panic part. There was one story about a mass grave and some underground tunnels in a day care/pre school but that wasn't the driving force for most of what you're talking about. A few daytime talk shows did segments about Killer Kids that were supposedly motivated by Satan and the artists and movies they blamed for inspiring them.
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Apr 9, 2023 23:00
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Moral panic in America is just a rolling stone that keeps picking things up. Large parts of our society is deeply afraid of the idea that an evil outsider is going to corrupt us and destroy us. We can go back to the nativist movements and the fear that Catholics were going to bring America under popish control. And none of them have stopped. QAnon is a fight against LGBTQ Communist Satanic baby eaters. The American Catholic right is currently deeply concerned with the influence of the pope in America since they are dividing with Rome on more and more beliefs because of American moral panics. BiggerBoat posted:Uhhh...no? Not really. Or not at all as far as I remember. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial A lot of it was also centered around child abuse. You had people like Mike Wernke, an American Evangelical who became famous after writing books claiming he was previously a Satanist hippie drug addict before finding God, going on 20/20 and "exposing" the underground networks Satanists used to kidnap children for use in rituals. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Hill_satanic_ritual_abuse_trial Fran and Dan Keller were convicted of abuse of children at their daycare with the accusations describing satanic rituals. They spent 21 years in prison for crimes that never happened with zero evidence that they had. Edit: Actually Wikipedia has a good break down of all the major pre-school cases https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 23:09
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Oxyclean posted:I don't think the implication was that it was equivalent, just which groups could become another cultural punching bag for a moral panic. It's not like we haven't seen republicans try with that whole litterbox thing. Is it "sex bad" or is it "I personally am not comfortable with the level of sexual talk going on in these spaces"? I would personally recommend being very suspicious of those kinds of vague anecdotal reports, because comfort and consent are very important, and I have definitely encountered people who used sex-positivity as an excuse to ignore other people's boundaries and comfort levels in a social space. And as far as I know, "tenderqueer" is mostly used to describe people in queer communities who use social justice language to disguise their own toxic or manipulative behavior. For example, someone who openly talks about their sexual encounters or what makes them horny in great detail, without regard for the social circumstances, and then responds to any pushback by accusing the other person of not being sex-positive.
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Apr 9, 2023 23:22
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Round here we call that pulling a Bust Rodd.
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Apr 9, 2023 23:43
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The backwards mask suicide stuff also led to a wonderful quote from Ozzy, "Why would I tell my audience to kill themselves? Then they can't buy my records"
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Apr 9, 2023 23:44
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Main Paineframe posted:Is it "sex bad" or is it "I personally am not comfortable with the level of sexual talk going on in these spaces"? I would personally recommend being very suspicious of those kinds of vague anecdotal reports, because comfort and consent are very important, and I have definitely encountered people who used sex-positivity as an excuse to ignore other people's boundaries and comfort levels in a social space. Not gonna disagree that people are not always respectful of comfort and consent - and don't mean to dismiss bad actors, but I've definitely see a degree of like, "you're making us look bad" sorts of takes, sometimes aimed at people who embrace kink or sexuality, but are not intruding on other spaces. (And to the point, I've known people who have dealt with people intruding on mature spaces to declare their discomfort) But my core point is this sort of thing is absolutely not new - ideas of there being a wrong way to be gay/trans/queer/etc, or this idea of "we need to look good so we'll be accepted," strike me as the kinds of thing reactionaries can use to sow divisions among LGBTQ+ folk.
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Apr 9, 2023 23:56
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Main Paineframe posted:Is it "sex bad" or is it "I personally am not comfortable with the level of sexual talk going on in these spaces"? I would personally recommend being very suspicious of those kinds of vague anecdotal reports, because comfort and consent are very important, and I have definitely encountered people who used sex-positivity as an excuse to ignore other people's boundaries and comfort levels in a social space. More of the "sex bad" but there's a bunch of layers to it beyond that with legitimate problems ( there are very few queer spaces that aren't bars ) and some nonsense ( seeing a leather daddy handing out fliers counts as kinky sex ) Oxyclean posted:I'm speaking somewhat loosely, and using "sex bad" as a bit of a shorthand, but I agree, there is nuance here that I maybe am not giving credit to. Yeah, this. Twincityhacker fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Apr 10, 2023 |
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Apr 10, 2023 00:08
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Main Paineframe posted:And as far as I know, "tenderqueer" is mostly used to describe people in queer communities who use social justice language to disguise their own toxic or manipulative behavior. For example, someone who openly talks about their sexual encounters or what makes them horny in great detail, without regard for the social circumstances, and then responds to any pushback by accusing the other person of not being sex-positive. I hate that I have encountered this repeatedly Or people who dress up obvious vengeance against anyone who jilted them
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Apr 10, 2023 00:13
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The one thing that will keep the Millenials left leaning and voting Democratic (Yes, yes I know, not the same thing) is that the economy has never worked for them and they grew up in the gay marriage culture war. Conservatives will never do anything approaching fixing the economy or helping people economically nor are they going to give up culture war stuff. Sitting here and saying capitalism is America's greatest strength when it loving failed millenials twice is a great way to not get votes basically. If a conservative can logic himself into UBI and like paid family leave, they'd make some inroads I imagine into the millenial bracket.
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Apr 10, 2023 00:49
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Mooseontheloose posted:If a conservative can logic himself into UBI and like paid family leave, they'd make some inroads I imagine into the millenial bracket. Unlikely, as the eternal conservative axiom of “the masses of stupid untermensch must be worked to death for their entire lives for the glory and comfort of me and the rest of the bourgeoisie” will prevent such thoughts from being thought.
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Apr 10, 2023 00:58
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I’m 38 and grew up a white, straight and middle class male. When I was 18 I cast my first vote for Ah-nold the Guvunnatuh and described myself as “socially liberal and fiscally moderate.” I am by all merits pretty successful, own a condo, make low six figures and have a kid and should be ripe for the “get more conservative as you get older” movement. I now basically vote for whoever the DSA endorses. I am moving more towards gay space communism than republicanism. Most of my friends are not as left as me but they’re not far off. I don’t feel like I can’t share my opinions in social circles because they’re too out there. For the same reasons as above, they may have been able to get me but I have too many friends who are not white, straight, middle class or male to ever accept Republicans, and even for where I’m at, my status in life basically teeters on student loan policy, so gently caress ‘em.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:08
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Mooseontheloose posted:
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Apr 10, 2023 01:09
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After hearing and reading about the sexual abuse by churches over the last [forever], it really seems to me that the child abuse panic is just more projection. Just like everything else our elders decry.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:10
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Also my parents, who were the archetypal Reagan Republicans in the 80’s, are so horrified by the outcomes for their kids and society that they now phone bank for Bernie.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:10
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Riven posted:I’m 38 and grew up a white, straight and middle class male. When I was 18 I cast my first vote for Ah-nold the Guvunnatuh and described myself as “socially liberal and fiscally moderate.” I’m entering my mid 30s, sameish background as you and finally seeing financial success in life and have no inclination to vote for republicans at all. I guess I might see some short term financial gain if taxes are cut or something? But the Republican Party has gone so insane that them winning an election literally gives me fear of the potential breakdown of society. The democrats suck for a number of reasons but I’m not deeply anxious about them running things.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:49
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I feel like there is increasing recognition among the younger generations that their taxes do not have to rise much, if at all, to produce radical changes in government spending and programs. The upper brackets and the corporations can pay for it. The "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" thing may be dying out as Americans accept that they are never going to be rich
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Apr 10, 2023 01:53
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Gumball Gumption posted:Moral panic in America is just a rolling stone that keeps picking things up. Large parts of our society is deeply afraid of the idea that an evil outsider is going to corrupt us and destroy us. I think a lot of it is also just convenient scapegoating and parents whitewashing the fact that they acted out against their parents when they were younger too. You can go "Hey, I'm not a lovely parent, the devil in the Nintendo is making them act up!" or "I was a respectful and well-behaved kid, I don't know what's gotten into this generation. Must be the music." Mizaq posted:After hearing and reading about the sexual abuse by churches over the last [forever], it really seems to me that the child abuse panic is just more projection. Just like everything else our elders decry. Also this. It's deflection and distraction. "Don't pay attention to the conservative feeling up a teenage girl behind the curtain, look at the drag queen who COULD be doing something!"
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Apr 10, 2023 02:02
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the_steve posted:I think a lot of it is also just convenient scapegoating and parents whitewashing the fact that they acted out against their parents when they were younger too. You can go "Hey, I'm not a lovely parent, the devil in the Nintendo is making them act up!" or "I was a respectful and well-behaved kid, I don't know what's gotten into this generation. Must be the music." I just see that as the same thing. That's one of the different ways it impacts and serves people on an individual level. One of the reasons we have that fear of corrupting outsiders is because we can then point at any flaw and blame it on the outsider.
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Apr 10, 2023 02:12
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What an excellent Easter speech by Justin Pearson https://twitter.com/mandersonville/status/1645176006309826563
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Apr 10, 2023 03:22
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The idea that moral panics are normal and inevitable is if anything the weird thing. That might be one of those things that's literally just a Boomer problem. The Red Scare was literally government policy designed to keep as much of the world as possible from realising they're being hosed over, and willing to commit genocide to shut up anyone pointing that out. (see Indonesia)
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Apr 10, 2023 03:23
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Charlz Guybon posted:What an excellent Easter speech by Justin Pearson they hosed up so bad by shoving him into the limelight
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Apr 10, 2023 03:36
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They guy seems real good.
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Apr 10, 2023 03:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The idea that moral panics are normal and inevitable is if anything the weird thing. That might be one of those things that's literally just a Boomer problem. The Red Scare was literally government policy designed to keep as much of the world as possible from realising they're being hosed over, and willing to commit genocide to shut up anyone pointing that out. (see Indonesia) It's been happening through enough history in different cultures long enough that yeah, it's kind of normal human behavior. It's not good! As rational creatures we should be able to identify and do something about our own behavior. But it's pretty normal in a sense. Being manufactured isn't even unique to the Red Scare, though yes on it being used to and helped encourage loving over the third world emerging from colonialism and trying to self determine, many moral panics are instigated by moral leaders for their benefit. A lot of Satanic panic fears came from a handful of narcissistic liars who got a media platform like Mike Wernke. The Red Scare allowed McCarthy his attention. Something that is interesting is that in England their moral panics tend to be more classist which isn't that surprising, class is more pronounced. It's often more focused on drugs and street crime, violent media corrupting the kids. More fear of the lower class mob. American panics are more about outsiders coming in and corrupting the culture, the way of life. It's definitely not just a boomer thing, maybe a mass media thing.
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Apr 10, 2023 03:40
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The idea that moral panics are normal and inevitable is if anything the weird thing. That might be one of those things that's literally just a Boomer problem. The Red Scare was literally government policy designed to keep as much of the world as possible from realising they're being hosed over, and willing to commit genocide to shut up anyone pointing that out. (see Indonesia) Nah, the history of the US is almost as much a history of moral panics as it is racism and greed. The founding fathers were terrified of the machinations of the Illuminati, wich was followed by a Mason panic, wich overlapped with a Catholic panic, and so on and so on. We love a conspiratorial cabal who are corrupting the children and poisoning society. Hell we were hunting witches before we were even a nation. Does it have to be that way? No, but avoiding future panics does seem to require drastic changes in our very fabric that approach the scale of giving up the Church of the Free Market.
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Apr 10, 2023 03:42
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You would think they would get tired of losing eventually https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1645258292879302668 Charlz Guybon fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Apr 10, 2023 |
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Apr 10, 2023 03:55
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Charlz Guybon posted:You would think they would get tired of losing eventually I don't know if they actually want to win. its far easier for them to be able to gum up the works by holding one part of congress than actually be in charge. Then they would actually have to implement the policies they keep talking about.
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Apr 10, 2023 04:22
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Charlz Guybon posted:You would think they would get tired of losing eventually If you accept as a given that they didn't lose in 2020, the issue isn't electability.
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Apr 10, 2023 04:23
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Charlz Guybon posted:You would think they would get tired of losing eventually They've convinced themselves that they are the semi-silent majority, and that every loss is only possible because of a vast conspiracy. Which is completely beside the fact that placing electability at the top of your desires in a two party system is just dumb as all gently caress.
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Apr 10, 2023 06:12
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Though it could just be that even Republicans know that the 'electability' argument is a bullshit false dichotomy. Especially since they specifically chose the candidate who spoke specifically to them and got them all hyped up over a bunch of 'qualified' establishment picks, and that candidate proceeded to defeat The Most Qualified Candidate In History.
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Apr 10, 2023 06:54
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Though it could just be that even Republicans know that the 'electability' argument is a bullshit false dichotomy. Electability and "qualified" are two different things. 'Electability' is probably mostly bullshit, yeah, but still very different from "qualified" which is 100% unambiguously total nonsense the general public has never cared about.
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Apr 10, 2023 08:32
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