The housing market - Think it depends on the definition of underwater

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The housing market - Think it depends on the definition of underwater

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Gunshow Poophole: Sep 14, 2008; OMBUDSMAN
POSTERS LOCAL 42069; Clapping Larry

airgapped for maximum security, material usage, and also heat loss in winter

I realize it�s probly a function of maximizing use of the footprint but lmao

# ? Apr 10, 2023 15:26

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# ? May 24, 2024 03:35

Deadly Ham Sandwich: Aug 19, 2009; Smellrose

Gunshow Poophole posted:

airgapped for maximum security, material usage, and also heat loss in winter

I realize it�s probly a function of maximizing use of the footprint but lmao

It's so it technically counts as a single family home instead of a rowhouse. And it is extremely stupid.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 15:35

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

I thought the gaps between buildings was for fire safety. That's Chicago lore

# ? Apr 10, 2023 15:42

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Not the most efficient design but it's still better than nearly any other kind of SFH. And if the gaps can convince more people to live that close together, that's a good bridge to better design.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 15:44

Pittsburgh Fentanyl Cloud: Apr 7, 2003

Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:

It's so it technically counts as a single family home instead of a rowhouse. And it is extremely stupid.

That was built in the 1890s, I don't think there was any such distinction or any reason to create such a distinction back then. Zoning laws were still about thirty years away.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 15:56

Nothus: Feb 22, 2001; Buglord

Gunshow Poophole posted:

Whatthe fucj just have them share a wall holy poo poo this is the dumbest style of building

That's so you can drag your garbage cans to the curb without taking them through the house. It's also so you can have ventilation windows on the side of the building.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:14

Nocturtle: Mar 17, 2007

It seems like there's this huge demand for additional units in urban areas but in many places it's difficult to build denser housing where there's existing residential single family homes. This article suggests that with denser housing off the table this demand for more units is being expressed in inefficient "backyard homes":

quote:

Interest in backyard homes grows amid soaring real estate costs and a shortage of housing
ANDREA YU
SPECIAL TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL
PUBLISHED YESTERDAY

In November, 2018, Chauncey Birch was scoping out a fixer-upper in Toronto�s Cabbagetown neighbourhood to buy, renovate and then rent out. He came across an outdated four-bed, three-bath duplex sitting on a lot that was 63 metres deep. But it wasn�t until he spoke with the architect who would oversee its renovation that Mr. Birch realized he could also build a laneway suite.

�After looking at the size of the property, its location with a laneway and the ability to fit a laneway suite in that space, the architect could tell we had met the preliminary parameters,� Mr. Birch explains.

He chose to build a three-bed, three-bath home with a basement and carport in the hopes of appealing to a family as future tenants. �I saw the ability to add that much space � in essence, a small home on an existing property,� says Mr. Birch, who expressed an interest in the smart densification of cities and reuse of existing land.

Mr. Birch is one of a growing number of property owners in Canada that are building secondary homes in their backyards. These structures go by many names, depending on the city where they�re located: granny flat, laneway home, backyard suite or accessory dwelling units.
...
�People who are looking to build for rental make up about half of the suites that are built,� Mr. Fong explains. �The other half are being built for an aging parent, or it could be a child who they want to keep close. We�ve had a lot of families with children with physical or mental disabilities. They can maintain their independence, but they do need extra support.�

Mr. Fong says that the construction process, and financing of the new builds, are common hurdles for those looking at adding garden suites. �They can be a pretty expensive development,� explains Mr. Fong, who estimates the cost of construction in Edmonton ranges from $200,000 to $400,000. In Calgary, that price can reach $600,000 or more.

And in Toronto, laneway projects start around $400,000 and can cost upward of $700,000, which is what Mr. Birch spent building his three-level suite. The laneway build added 20 per cent to the loan that Mr. Birch sought out from a private lender to complete both the main house renovations and laneway construction. He�s now renting out the laneway unit for $5,500 a month, but his motivations for the build aren�t strictly about the income.
...
�For rental properties, you get deductions for the expenses related specifically to the rental suite,� explains Ms. Hayes. �Items like the additional property taxes, utilities, interest on your HELOC, advertising and repairs are some examples of deductions.�

New federal tax credits for 2023 also provide relief for some garden-home builders housing family members. The Multigenerational Home Renovation Tax Credit provides a 15-per-cent refundable tax credit to assist with renovation costs up to $50,000 for a secondary unit with a private entrance, kitchen and bathroom. �But to be eligible, the resident of the unit must be a family member who is a senior or an adult with a disability,� Ms. Hayes explains.

She also points to the GST/HST New Residential Rental Property Rebate, which refunds part of the GST paid on a laneway housing project. �The rules on this are complex, so it�s best to work with an accountant,� Ms. Hayes says.

The backyard home pictured in the article has an IKEA aesthetic:

Densification is good, multi-generational households make sense and will only become more popular as old-age care is incredibly unaffordable. OTOH this appears to be a very inefficient way to go about building more units, and ripping out a private backyard to build some squat rental unit to me removes one of the main benefits of houses vs multi-unit buildings. There are so many tax incentives and credits too, home and property owners are incredibly coddled as a group.

Also I don't really understand the appeal of becoming a landlord, but it seems like lots of home owners really like the idea of converting their limited private green space into shack to collect rent. Sounds miserable for everyone.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:19

Pittsburgh Fentanyl Cloud: Apr 7, 2003

Nocturtle posted:

Also I don't really understand the appeal of becoming a landlord, but it seems like lots of home owners really like the idea of converting their limited private green space into shack to collect rent. Sounds miserable for everyone.

The place I posted earlier, the "house-hacking" place with the basement converted into a AirBnB unit, went contingent within 24 hours of listing.

The American dream is not a good life for everyone, it is getting your chance to gently caress everyone else.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:20

Nothus: Feb 22, 2001; Buglord

Nocturtle posted:

Also I don't really understand the appeal of becoming a landlord, but it seems like lots of home owners really like the idea of converting their limited private green space into shack to collect rent. Sounds miserable for everyone.

Landlording is being used as a way to adapt to higher housing costs. You can afford a bigger mortgage if you have a tenant helping cover the monthly payment, especially if you can gouge most/all of the mortgage payment out of them.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:23

err: Apr 11, 2005; I carry my own weight no matter how heavy this shit gets...

landlording became easy once management companies started popping up everywhere

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:25

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Nocturtle posted:

It seems like there's this huge demand for additional units in urban areas but in many places it's difficult to build denser housing where there's existing residential single family homes. This article suggests that with denser housing off the table this demand for more units is being expressed in inefficient "backyard homes":

The backyard home pictured in the article has an IKEA aesthetic:

Densification is good, multi-generational households make sense and will only become more popular as old-age care is incredibly unaffordable. OTOH this appears to be a very inefficient way to go about building more units, and ripping out a private backyard to build some squat rental unit to me removes one of the main benefits of houses vs multi-unit buildings. There are so many tax incentives and credits too, home and property owners are incredibly coddled as a group.

Also I don't really understand the appeal of becoming a landlord, but it seems like lots of home owners really like the idea of converting their limited private green space into shack to collect rent. Sounds miserable for everyone.

ADUs are a compromise, but we don't have a lot of options for transitioning areas that are totally SFH. I don't really see any problems with them that don't also apply to rentals generally.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:28

Ornery and Hornery: Oct 22, 2020

*tim and Eric show voice*

its passive income :smug:

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:30

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

One thing I like about ADUs is that they're not mass produced, so they result in the unique little nooks and crannies that make cities interesting. It's always cool to see what little hideaways are right off the street.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:31

Ornery and Hornery: Oct 22, 2020

Fitzy Fitz posted:

ADUs are a compromise, but we don't have a lot of options for transitioning areas that are totally SFH. I don't really see any problems with them that don't also apply to rentals generally.

the solution is upzone the area, which increases the land value, which developers will pay to build multifamily units and the sfh people will gladly sell because they get to make millions

it�s a really loving easy solution

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:31

HashtagGirlboss: Jan 4, 2005

Ornery and Hornery posted:

the solution is upzone the area, which increases the land value, which developers will pay to build multifamily units and the sfh people will gladly sell because they get to make millions

it�s a really loving easy solution

Oregon did this statewide a few years ago but I�ve heard that the suburbs and smaller towns have just turned to the design and permitting process to keep multi family stuff from being built

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:34

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Ornery and Hornery posted:

the solution is upzone the area, which increases the land value, which developers will pay to build multifamily units and the sfh people will gladly sell because they get to make millions

it�s a really loving easy solution

There are a lot of easy solutions that don't enjoy enough popular support to implement everywhere. e.g., we have historic neighborhoods here that will probably never be truly upzoned, but at least some of them have added extra housing in their backyards. ADUs should at least be legalized as an option for SFH zoning. It shouldn't interfere with the option of upzoning if there's enough political will for it.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:38

Ornery and Hornery: Oct 22, 2020

yea you are correct the issue is political will.

but if you want to frame the discussion around �what is politically feasible in the existing socioeconomic environment� then yeah there is no solution.

the way to get people housing is to massively expand the supply and provide housing as a direct support (funding non profits, land covenants for private developments, public housing, etc.)

the solution is simple it�s just capitalism and dumb politics that stop the solution

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:42

JAY ZERO SUM GAME: Oct 18, 2005; Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.

Ornery and Hornery posted:

yea you are correct the issue is political will.

yeah that's, like.... *gestures to everything*

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:49

Pittsburgh Fentanyl Cloud: Apr 7, 2003

Ornery and Hornery posted:

the solution is upzone the area, which increases the land value, which developers will pay to build multifamily units and the sfh people will gladly sell because they get to make millions

it�s a really loving easy solution

Most of this city was originally platted for 24'x100' or 30'x100' lots. Zoning limits were imposed afterwards, with the result that in much of the city you cannot build on an empty existing lot without getting ahold of an adjacent lot to hit the zoning minimum lot size.

It's a great way for a city to shoot itself in the foot and they won't change it for some reason

# ? Apr 10, 2023 16:51

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

My city shot down an ADU proposal recently because they could be used for short-term rentals like AirBNBs. And yeah I loving hate those things, but I'd rather they go in someone's backyard than take up an entire house. (who am I kidding, we'd just have both)

# ? Apr 10, 2023 17:03

Teabag Dome Scandal: Mar 19, 2002

Fitzy Fitz posted:

My city shot down an ADU proposal recently because they could be used for short-term rentals like AirBNBs. And yeah I loving hate those things, but I'd rather they go in someone's backyard than take up an entire house. (who am I kidding, we'd just have both)

ugh if only the city could do something about short term rentals and AirBNBs

back to the drawing board

# ? Apr 10, 2023 17:09

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

We have a fairly toothless STR regulation in the works. It mostly limits them in SFH neighborhoods and does nothing about the hundreds that already exist. It doesn't cap the total number. My commissioner rents out an AirBNB.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 17:14

Paradoxish: Dec 19, 2003; Will you stop going crazy in there?

I'm a city that hates short term rentals, so instead of banning short term rentals I'll ban this other thing with plenty of legitimate uses while still allowing petty landlords to turn whole blocks into airbnbs.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 17:41

Ornery and Hornery: Oct 22, 2020

It would be so tight if short term rentals were policed as aggressively, as say, any of the bajillion lovely racist things cops do.

smiling to myself thinking about some rear end hole with five AirBnBs getting tazed and maced

# ? Apr 10, 2023 17:47

Nocturtle: Mar 17, 2007

I'm sure ADUs have legitimate uses, but the outcome is a bunch of single family houses and tiny ADUs surrounded by pavement. Everyone would likely be better off in a multi-family building with some common green space but apparently that's not possible. It's subjective but they don't look interesting or unique to me, more like the house metastasized.

Nothus posted:

Landlording is being used as a way to adapt to higher housing costs. You can afford a bigger mortgage if you have a tenant helping cover the monthly payment, especially if you can gouge most/all of the mortgage payment out of them.

It likely makes sense economically. For example the fledgling slumlord in the article was getting ~9.5% rental revenue on building the backyard home, not including the govt subsidies and increase in total property value.

My thought was more that being a landlord looks like a miserable parasitical role where you're often actively disliked by your tenants (correctly). Getting pushed into it in order to afford anything seems like an unfortunate outcome of the current housing market.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:06

Twerk from Home: Jan 17, 2009; This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.

Blanket up-zoning seems to be the best tool that we have. Developers are salivating at the profits from the ability to plop down 4 houses where they would put one, let's let them loving do it.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:08

MickeyFinn: May 8, 2007; Biggie Smalls and Junior Mafia some mark ass bitches

Nocturtle posted:

I'm sure ADUs have legitimate uses, but the outcome is a bunch of single family houses and tiny ADUs surrounded by pavement. Everyone would likely be better off in a multi-family building with some common green space but apparently that's not possible. It's subjective but they don't look interesting or unique to me, more like the house metastasized.

It likely makes sense economically. For example the fledgling slumlord in the article was getting ~9.5% rental revenue on building the backyard home, not including the govt subsidies and increase in total property value.

My thought was more that being a landlord looks like a miserable parasitical role where you're often actively disliked by your tenants (correctly). Getting pushed into it in order to afford anything seems like an unfortunate outcome of the current housing market.

The people who post in CSPAM (and D&D for that matter) are humongous weirdos who think about the society they live in. Most people are trying to keep their families from being put into the poverty blender or they think that landlording is a great way to create passive income.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:11

actionjackson: Jan 12, 2003

Gunshow Poophole posted:

airgapped for maximum security, material usage, and also heat loss in winter

I realize it�s probly a function of maximizing use of the footprint but lmao

c-spam hates sharing walls though

edit: I would love to live in an ADU, find some fancy house in a nice neighborhood by a lake or w/e and just live in their backyard. i could easily pass as a disabled adult if that's a requirement

actionjackson has issued a correction as of 18:44 on Apr 10, 2023

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:38

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

I think it�s more owners hate sharing continuous roofs.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:40

dxt: Mar 27, 2004; METAL DISCHARGE

The real bad thing having someone above you. I've had so many loud stomping upstairs neighbors in apartments/duplexes I've lived in over the years, a side by side situation isn't nearly as bad.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:44

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

actionjackson posted:

c-spam hates sharing walls though

edit: I would love to live in an ADU, find some fancy house in a nice neighborhood by a lake or w/e and just live in their backyard. i could easily pass as a disabled adult if that's a requirement

my friends did it in east lakeview, rented a 2bd/1.5 ba for like $1200/mo from 2008-2014. landlord was mansion house, shared the lawn space in between and got to use the fancy grill. hosted nonstop parties since no shared walls with anyone. it was phenomenal. too bad that chicago banned these places from being built like 80 years ago!

landlord eventually sold the whole property and the coachhouse is now an airbnb after a remodel to make it 3bd/2.5ba (and we had another party there, it was weird)

dxt posted:

The real bad thing having someone above you. I've had so many loud stomping upstairs neighbors in apartments/duplexes I've lived in over the years, a side by side situation isn't nearly as bad.

it took me forever to realize 'what are they doing, rolling bowling balls around??' noise was rolling suitcases/briefcases

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:48

Nothus: Feb 22, 2001; Buglord

Nocturtle posted:

My thought was more that being a landlord looks like a miserable parasitical role where you're often actively disliked by your tenants (correctly). Getting pushed into it in order to afford anything seems like an unfortunate outcome of the current housing market.

I've seen more than one house-hunting show on hgtv (lol, I know) wherein a 20-something in California is forced to take "passive income opportunities" into account to afford anything bigger than a sub-700 square foot condo. And that's after a sizeable down-payment from their parents.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:53

Justin Tyme: Feb 22, 2011

i imagine having two walls and an alley between houses does wonders for not annoying each other with loud music or house parties or barking dogs, seems like a fine tradeoff imo

# ? Apr 10, 2023 18:59

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; Can't post for 16 hours!

Fitzy Fitz posted:

We have a fairly toothless STR regulation in the works. It mostly limits them in SFH neighborhoods and does nothing about the hundreds that already exist. It doesn't cap the total number. My commissioner rents out an AirBNB.

lol

# ? Apr 10, 2023 19:06

Pittsburgh Fentanyl Cloud: Apr 7, 2003

Fitzy Fitz posted:

We have a fairly toothless STR regulation in the works. It mostly limits them in SFH neighborhoods and does nothing about the hundreds that already exist. It doesn't cap the total number. My commissioner rents out an AirBNB.

Reminds me of the UK's tory-backed rent to buy schemes for public housing, which meant all that public housing turned into rentals owned by tory MPs

# ? Apr 10, 2023 19:22

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

reminder that pirates that worked for the government were called privateers. privatization is just that.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 19:23

dxt: Mar 27, 2004; METAL DISCHARGE

mastershakeman posted:

it took me forever to realize 'what are they doing, rolling bowling balls around??' noise was rolling suitcases/briefcases

I had upstairs neighbor kids that rode bikes/bounced basketballs at all hours of the night, it sucked rear end.

# ? Apr 10, 2023 19:36

External Organs: Mar 3, 2006; One time i prank called a bear buildin workshop and said I wanted my mamaws ashes put in a teddy from where she loved them things so well... The woman on the phone did not skip a beat. She just said, "Brang her on down here. We've did it before."

anime was right posted:

reminder that pirates that worked for the government were called privateers. privatization is just that.

I just learned this from shadow and bone season 3

# ? Apr 10, 2023 19:45

actionjackson: Jan 12, 2003

I only hear noise upstairs when my neighbor vacuums. also she's gone all the time, and previously the unit was unoccupied for many years, so it's great. i've never ever heard someone next to me in 11+ years, i'm in newer construction so I'm sure there's some thick concrete between the walls

# ? Apr 10, 2023 20:29

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# ? May 24, 2024 03:35

Pittsburgh Fentanyl Cloud: Apr 7, 2003

New construction, notable for adequate soundproofing

# ? Apr 10, 2023 20:30

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The housing market - Think it depends on the definition of underwater

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