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SocksAndSandals posted:I should probable get a decent set of small, magnetic screwdrivers. IMO the ifixit kits are really worth the money. They're the nicest exchangeable-bit drivers I've used, and have nice strong magnets. Can't recommend highly enough.
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Apr 9, 2023 14:22
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So I'm trying to make sense of the Gigabyte x670 Elite's M.2 section of the manual, I can see that two of the slots are CPU but two are listed as SB, which despite my searching I haven't been able to find an answer as to what that means exactly. I also notice the manual doesn't mention using those slots will disable SATA ports, but I did see something about them potentially using PCIe lanes (from the other PCIe slots?). So my question is: will filling M.2 slot 3 and 4 disable those extra PCIe slots? Still disable SATA ports? What's going on here exactly? I've also looked at MSI's tomahawk wi-fi and asus's tuf gaming wi-fi x670s and I didn't see mention of M.2 disabling ports or PCIe slots in those manuals either.
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Apr 9, 2023 17:42
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Ardryn posted:So I'm trying to make sense of the Gigabyte x670 Elite's M.2 section of the manual, I can see that two of the slots are CPU but two are listed as SB, which despite my searching I haven't been able to find an answer as to what that means exactly. SB are connected to the mobo chipset(s). See the block diagram on page 5. SB probably stands for "south bridge". The useful information is that you should arrange your drives fastest -> slowest in order M2A -> M2D. (Though M2A and M2B will be identical unless you have a gen5 drive.) M2C_SB is connected to the primary chipset chip, and M2D_SB is connected to the secondary chipset chip such that data has to hop through the primary one to get to the CPU. Theoretically adds more latency, but probably makes exactly zero difference in practice. Ardryn posted:I also notice the manual doesn't mention using those slots will disable SATA ports, but I did see something about them potentially using PCIe lanes (from the other PCIe slots?). So my question is: will filling M.2 slot 3 and 4 disable those extra PCIe slots? Still disable SATA ports? What's going on here exactly? No. Between the new CPU having more PCIe lanes and the X670 dual chipset, there's enough IO that they can populate everything on the board with dedicated connections.
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Apr 9, 2023 18:14
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I think I don’t want a QLC drive because I’ve been playing with big ML models and recording video, but in spite of reading this thread religiously I am still not confident in my ability to choose a good drive. If I want a 4TB Gen 4 drive for primary boot, games, and occasionally write-heavy loads, is that the SN850x? Should I just get two SN770 and figure out some RAID setup to bridge them? I’d really like to have them as a unified pool, I think.
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Apr 9, 2023 18:27
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Klyith posted:Answered Thank you, that was very helpful!
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Apr 9, 2023 18:29
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Subjunctive posted:I think I don’t want a QLC drive because I’ve been playing with big ML models and recording video, but in spite of reading this thread religiously I am still not confident in my ability to choose a good drive. If I want a 4TB Gen 4 drive for primary boot, games, and occasionally write-heavy loads, is that the SN850x? Should I just get two SN770 and figure out some RAID setup to bridge them? I’d really like to have them as a unified pool, I think. How much GPU do you have?  I'm no expert on ML, but the nvidia DGX platforms have default setups with 1:1 enterprise NVMe drives to GPUs. And those have pretty fierce GPUs in them. They can support up to 2:1 drive:gpu, but I'm guessing that would be more about needing extra storage space rather than than bandwidth. So my guess would be that a single big SN850x would be adequate and that you don't need to raid 2 SN770s. Unless you have 2 4090s or something. edit: 2x2TB SN770s is a substantial cost savings vs a 4TB SN850x, but my inclination says that's a question of cost vs the hassle of a raid, and not a raid supporting better ML performance. Klyith fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 18:49
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I just have the one 4090, so I’ll go with the SN850x and make things easier. Thank you!
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Apr 9, 2023 21:08
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Based on some random complaints thread over on reddit, I checked mine. How in the gently caress is that even possible? Why's there like a third more writes than reads?! --edit: 69TB over ~22000 hours, that's like 3GB/h.
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Apr 10, 2023 10:57
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Combat Pretzel posted:Based on some random complaints thread over on reddit, I checked mine. How in the gently caress is that even possible? Why's there like a third more writes than reads?! AFAIK this is 100% normal. All of my drives that report total reads have more write than read, though to less of a degree than yours. More in the 10-20% zone. The normal operation of a PC throws lots of data around that never gets looked at again. Like, probably 95% of data that gets dumped to swap just sits there untouched until a program closes, and then the OS deletes it. And your OS & programs constantly do small writes of useful state information. People getting excited and complaining about poo poo on reddit are frequently totally off-base.
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Apr 10, 2023 16:53
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The reddit thing was more like the amount of writes. Dude had like 24TB in under five months. Well then. The drive of mine has 600TBW endurance, anyway. Should last another 190000 hours.
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Apr 10, 2023 17:28
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Combat Pretzel posted:The reddit thing was more like the amount of writes. Dude had like 24TB in under five months. Playing a lot of games with video recording turned on can rack up that much. Default settings for shadowplay is like 22 GB/hr, and you can triple that if you push the slider all the way up. For people that play games for multiple hours per day and record everything, it's a potential reason to keep a HDD around. Combat Pretzel posted:Well then. The drive of mine has 600TBW endurance, anyway. Should last another 190000 hours. Also every time anyone has ever tested it, SSDs have long out-lived their spec endurance. I kinda figure more recent drives, especially QLC ones, aren't doing the same 50x better than spec like they used to. But still.
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Apr 10, 2023 18:18
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Klyith posted:Playing a lot of games with video recording turned on can rack up that much. Default settings for shadowplay is like 22 GB/hr, and you can triple that if you push the slider all the way up. Or you just switch to OBS which lets you hold the replay buffer in memory.
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Apr 10, 2023 23:16
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Im at the point SSDs are so cheap I don't care anymore. Just give me TB and some good IOPS and im happy as a clam. Also please make the NAND not die.
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Apr 11, 2023 02:28
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Ok dumb hypothetical. Core2quad was the best. But all of those shipped with spinning drives back in ~2009. Then they got a breath of new life with SATA3 SSDs. They don't support NVME SSDs but what if they did? How much more performance can be eeked out of a top end C2Q if it supported say a Gen4 NVME?
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Apr 11, 2023 23:55
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It should be possible to get an NVMe drive working on a C2Q with a PCIe slot adapter, it just wouldn't be bootable due to lack of BIOS support. Do the science if you still have such a machine and let us know how it goes!
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Apr 12, 2023 00:11
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Shaocaholica posted:Ok dumb hypothetical. Core2quad was the best. But all of those shipped with spinning drives back in ~2009. Then they got a breath of new life with SATA3 SSDs. They don't support NVME SSDs but what if they did? How much more performance can be eeked out of a top end C2Q if it supported say a Gen4 NVME? First, do you have an application where the SATA -> NVMe upgrade is a non-trivial performance gain on a current PCs?
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Apr 12, 2023 03:00
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Even if you could boot from the NVMe, aren't the chipsets limited to PCI-e 2.0?
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Apr 12, 2023 09:17
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I used one of high end C2Q on my server until couple years ago with a Sata SSD, it's not great anymore and kinda lags behind on basic tasks. I guess with NVMe your best bet would be to have a storage controller that can handle all 16 lanes of PCIE and distribute the 4x speeds of newer M2 drive to utilize entire bus.
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Apr 12, 2023 12:17
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Klyith posted:First, do you have an application where the SATA -> NVMe upgrade is a non-trivial performance gain on a current PCs?
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Apr 12, 2023 15:50
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orcane posted:Even if you could boot from the NVMe, aren't the chipsets limited to PCI-e 2.0? It was just a hypothetical in which the chipset would support full gen4 speeds.
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Apr 12, 2023 17:10
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You could get 4GB/s with a WD Black AN1500. You can also boot nvme on any chipset using a boot loader.
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Apr 13, 2023 01:09
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 It's not Core2 but its the oldest machine I have with a free PCIe slot right now.
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Apr 13, 2023 04:22
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Klyith posted:Also every time anyone has ever tested it, SSDs have long out-lived their spec endurance.
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Apr 13, 2023 09:37
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Are people actually throwing away SSDs after 5yr?
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Apr 13, 2023 17:05
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I grabbed a 2TB SN770 for $110 and installed it a couple days ago as an upgrade to a ~4yr old HP EX920. I wasn't expecting much change performance-wise since this system is PCIE 3.0, but there was actually a noticeable performance increase in day-to-day tasks and the benchmark differences were even more significant.
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Apr 13, 2023 17:41
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Is there a recommended tool for secure erasing non boot SSDs in windows? The Samsung bootable tool is clunky when you have to do many.
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Apr 14, 2023 18:14
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Shaocaholica posted:Is there a recommended tool for secure erasing non boot SSDs in windows? The Samsung bootable tool is clunky when you have to do many. No, there's pretty much just the mnfr tools. Or spend $50 on a paid app. Linux live usb stick is also an option.
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Apr 14, 2023 19:38
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Klyith posted:No, there's pretty much just the mnfr tools. Or spend $50 on a paid app. It’s weird you need these hyper niche specific tools for a standardized(?) ATA command?
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Apr 14, 2023 21:10
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You don’t need niche tools unfortunately there is no nvmecli equivalent in windows and it makes me mad
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Apr 14, 2023 21:33
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Windows is so bad for anything low level. I wish you could get stuff like nvmecli and lspci in an admin powershell!!
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Apr 14, 2023 21:36
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Ok I bought a few used 970 Evo pluses and I'm finally getting around to checking and erasing them. What does it mean if a 2TB model has 250T worth of writes on it? The Samsung spec is TBW-1500 for the 2T model. So 250/1500 is 17% wear. What's hypothetically going to happen at 100% wear? Not saying I'll ever get there with these but just wondering.
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Apr 14, 2023 22:24
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Shaocaholica posted:Ok I bought a few used 970 Evo pluses and I'm finally getting around to checking and erasing them. What does it mean if a 2TB model has 250T worth of writes on it? The Samsung spec is TBW-1500 for the 2T model. So 250/1500 is 17% wear. What's hypothetically going to happen at 100% wear? Not saying I'll ever get there with these but just wondering. Your warranty will be invalid, even if you hop in a time machine and go back to when the drive was less than 3 years old. Aside from that nothing. Klyith posted:Also every time anyone has ever tested it, SSDs have long out-lived their spec endurance.
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Apr 14, 2023 22:58
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Thanks. So has anyone taken an SSD way past its endurance either synthetically or in production to see what the limits are? Or its literally not reasonably possible even in a home lab?
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Apr 14, 2023 23:01
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Shaocaholica posted:Thanks. So has anyone taken an SSD way past its endurance either synthetically or in production to see what the limits are? Or its literally not reasonably possible even in a home lab? There was a test that did it years ago for a pretty sizeable selection of drives that were current back then. If I recall correctly only one or two drives actually failed and the others kept chugging along for many several times their rates endurance.
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Apr 14, 2023 23:09
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As mentioned, some drives from some vendors will go to read-only mode the second they hit 100% media wear Some drives from some vendors will flag smart critical warning once it hits 100% but continue on their merry way Other drives will just continue on as if nothing happened (with some differences between whether the media wear counter will exceed 100% or not). I've taken a data center class drive and saturated the 8-bit counter without any bad blocks. An enterprise level 1TB drive doing non-stop writes in my testing generally gets to 100% in 3-4 months so its very doable in a home lab environment. Probably even quicker if you just do something like just sequential writes at 128K QD128 WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Apr 15, 2023 |
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Apr 14, 2023 23:46
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priznat posted:Windows is so bad for anything low level. I wish you could get stuff like nvmecli and lspci in an admin powershell!! Can you do this through WSL maybe? Someone suggested this for lspci: 
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Apr 14, 2023 23:57
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Could be! I tried installing WSL once on a work PC and because the network stuff is locked down it was a huge pain in the rear end so I kind of gave up. Linux is just a lot better for that stuff.
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Apr 15, 2023 00:26
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it looks like on Windows you can only send CRYPTO SCRAMBLE EXT from WinPE (the pre-installation environment) if using the Windows driver stack, so that might be why Samsung’s thing makes you boot into it
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Apr 15, 2023 00:36
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WhyteRyce posted:As mentioned, some drives from some vendors will go to read-only mode the second they hit 100% media wear The question here is, what does a drive mean by "media wear"? Welcome to the wonderful world of SMART: where the definitions are made up and the specs don't matter!  For some SSDs, media wear equals how much of their internal over-provision space is left. SSDs all start with more flash capacity than the drive space they show you, both to store their own internal housekeeping and to cover for blocks that go bad. As blocks fail through over-use or defect that extra space shrinks. When there is no extra space, the SSD is pretty crippled -- it can't guarantee data integrity, and also over-provision is pretty critical to how SSDs function. They need the extra space to shuffle data around. These drives will tend to go read-only or throw critical errors when they hit 100% media wear. And for good reason. Flash will normally fail on an ever-escalating curve. You may only have a limited time for data recovery before the drive is kaput. OTOH, some drives will use media wear as TB written / whitepaper spec endurance. If a drive has 250TB written, the whitepaper spec is 1500TB, and the media wear attribute also says 17%, then you can be pretty sure the drive is in this category. These drives will happily keep running and are still perfectly good, because write endurance spec ranges between very conservative and crazy conservative.
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Apr 15, 2023 04:01
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generally with every enterprise model I've used, media wear % is tied to the TBW written guarantee which is generally based around some number of drive writes per day * 3 or 5 years. The separate available spare % field is supposed to be used to communicate spare capacity available, but I have no idea if some cheaper client drives use them other ways. And yes, the spec does define that field as vendor specific estimate so it could mean literally anything and the vendor doesn't need to share with you the default smart log is lacking in many ways which is why the OCP smart log page fills in many more gaps, such as being able to calculate WAF yourself or view the number of bad blocks or a pcie correctable error counter if you're one of those people who need proof your pcie link is garbage. You probably won't ever find that log on client drives though WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Apr 15, 2023 |
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Apr 15, 2023 04:49
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