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Alctel posted:Can you two just gently caress already EDIT: That's a terrible snipe, so here's that artificial magnetic field generator I was talking about earlier. It's called the CREW HaT 
Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Apr 13, 2023 |
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Apr 13, 2023 22:23
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:EDIT: That's a terrible snipe, so here's that artificial magnetic field generator I was talking about earlier.
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Apr 13, 2023 22:26
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Nessus posted:Nice. I saw some drat thing or other that said you could set something like this up at a Martian Lagrange point or something and cut the solar wind on Mars by some huge fraction for peanuts compared to a Martian settlement costs? Wouldn't you want to be cutting the solar winds on Mars because you want to have a settlement there? Or at least a research base without needing to start burrowing underground. But yeah n'thing that this is a cool article and thanks for linking it!
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Apr 13, 2023 22:29
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Raenir Salazar posted:Wouldn't you want to be cutting the solar winds on Mars because you want to have a settlement there? Or at least a research base without needing to start burrowing underground.
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Apr 13, 2023 22:32
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Alctel posted:Can you two just gently caress already I'll drop it, since I like this thread too. Sorry for making GBS threads it up everyone.
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Apr 13, 2023 22:34
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Nessus posted:Right, it’s just one of the many obstacles to long term residency there. I would think that if the “base” is just a dug out for a Martian science mission you wouldn’t do that. I mean, could be worth it as an experiment and measure its effectiveness right? Assuming its the case you're supposed to set this up at the L-point; just one rocket to the L-point to setup the generator; as your sending the other unmanned rockets to setup the research site; and then when you've sent the manned mission everything is ready and they can take measurements? It can't be that much more expensive; just the price of the rocket and the equipment right when we're already probably sending multiple rockets?
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Apr 13, 2023 22:38
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I got no idea what the profile of a manned Mars mission would be. I imagine we can only guess. But presumably stuff like the crew hat would test the idea!
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Apr 13, 2023 22:39
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CREW HaT is theoretically for use on spacecraft/stations (and currently is too heavy to be practical). I imagine you'd need to scale it up a lot to try and shield an entire planet, and I have no idea what the maintenance and power requirements would be. I also don't know if you could build one on the ground, but at that point you're probably better just covering your habitat in a layer of regolith concrete.
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Apr 13, 2023 23:06
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Yeah I was just responding to the rumour Nessus was saying. It would be interesting if you could scale it up and the amount you'd need to scale it up by wasn't like, ungodly levels of impractical though.
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Apr 13, 2023 23:09
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*mod hat on* This is a general warning to cool it. This thread usually does not get a lot of reported posts, and then suddenly we're seeing a bunch. Rather than toss out probes, I'm asking you all to just go back to however you were before the current tensions. And while I have nothing against effortposts, please make sure that large walls of text would be of interest to casual readers of the thread. Take lengthy personal arguments to PMs or some other place. *mod hat off*
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Apr 13, 2023 23:29
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Alctel posted:Can you two just gently caress already
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Apr 13, 2023 23:51
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Alctel posted:Can you two just gently caress already
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Apr 14, 2023 00:08
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Alctel posted:Couldn't an Orion drive ship get to the nearest solar system in like 60 years or so? I think the reality of generation ships is that the overwhelming majority of them would never make it - either the ship breaks down due to the difficulties of designing a machine that will work perfectly for that long or because your crew lost their maintenance competency... or the crew loses it and goes full Lord of the Flies. The handful of those that do make it, probably come out with a culture like North Korea. That kind of hyper-controlling top-down cult society is likely the only kind that can survive a very confined, resource-limited, recycling-obsessed environment like that for centuries, and it's a (very low-odds) dice roll as to whether or not you happen to get a long enough series of halfway responsible Dear Leaders in a row in order to survive the trip and decelerate on time. Earlier points got made about how interstellar travel can be viewed as a propulsion problem, but may be more usefully viewed as a medical problem; that's where my thinking has been for a long time. I mean, we have plenty of reason to pursue life extension research even if we have no interest in using it for space travel, and if large numbers of people can reliably live for 1000 years then the entire above equation starts to look radically different - and the timescales on which culture and the economy operate also radically shift.
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Apr 14, 2023 06:23
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Personally, I think of interstellar travel as an entropy problem. You're trying to get a very specific result over a very long time period while expending collosal amounts of free energy in a hostile environment that is simultaneously perfectly insulated, immensely cold, and constantly irradiated.
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Apr 14, 2023 12:37
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The JUICE launch stream has started, fingers crossed that they don't have to abort again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgBHD5gPJ40 EDIT, lol: "All is red for launch" "Red?" "Green! All is GREEN for launch" Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Apr 14, 2023 |
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Apr 14, 2023 12:42
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THE JUICE IS LOOSE   
Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Apr 14, 2023 |
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Apr 14, 2023 13:18
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Guess I’m going to have to start taking care of myself if I want to live long enough to learn cool things about Ganymede.
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Apr 14, 2023 14:04
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I think coldberg if we're thinking about realistically what sending a generation ship would look like, let's suppose hypothetically it's 1000 years from now and we've very thoroughly exploited our solar system. Space is big even in our solar system, the outer planets even with the most advanced engines we can conceive, would probably take months. This implies we'd have centuries of practice in constructing relatively isolated communities although actually they'd probably semi often get visitors traveling from other parts of the solar system trade network. But I think the important think is to look back historical, we've had thousands of years in which some human communities, if not entire civilizations have been living in relative isolation from each other. I'm not sure we need a cult, a regular democratic society would probably do just as well if not better. These people wouldn't be living in a metal prison but in a huge environment, as large as it needs to be to nigh eliminate any sense of being enclosed within a space. If we have a craft large enough that if you send out 50,000 people with room for 1,000,000 people, I'm not sure but I think it's reasonable that we wouldn't need to really worry about them forming a cult or eating each other. There's entirely the possibility that some groups of people in the craft might not see other people living in the same craft, that's how many people and how much space there could be. Of course it'd be a huge challenge about having enough resources for supplies, how to do self repairs that might be needed, and whether enough food could be grown, but from the sociological standpoint it depends on our assumptions, I think we shouldn't think of it as sending people in a cramped sardine can. But yeeting a very pretty walkable city with greenery and open fields.
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Apr 14, 2023 14:13
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I AM GRANDO posted:Guess I’m going to have to start taking care of myself if I want to live long enough to learn cool things about Ganymede. Europa Clipper is launching next year as well, it's as good a reason as any to keep on living. EDIT: the JUICE solar panels are being deployed, and it's starting to draw power from them  EDIT2: Fully deployed, it's all go for Jupiter! Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Apr 14, 2023 |
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Apr 14, 2023 14:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:Yeah I was just responding to the rumour Nessus was saying. It would be interesting if you could scale it up and the amount you'd need to scale it up by wasn't like, ungodly levels of impractical though. e: aha, doing the obvious works sometimes https://www.universetoday.com/153368/an-absolutely-bonkers-plan-to-give-mars-an-artificial-magnetosphere/
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Apr 14, 2023 15:22
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Europa Clipper is launching next year as well, it's as good a reason as any to keep on living. When I think about how hard it is to do this (for me at least) in Kerbal Space Program, I just get so impressed by how we're able to pull things like sending probes to orbit moons around Jupiter or rendezvous with comets and asteroids. Amazing stuff.  EDIT: Nessus posted:I haven't been able to google up the thing, but I believe that the idea with the magnetic field generator is that you put it at a point where it is in front of Mars and it would then make the solar wind bend around Mars, which would significantly reduce the incoming particles. This may have been a hypothetical way to address solar wind erosion of the atmosphere (either naturally or somehow enhanced by humans getting up to didoes and shenanigans) I really really don't get this and I guess that's why I'm on the "Space habitats" side instead of the "Terraforming" side. Why on earth (  ) would you want to spend tremendous amounts of effort into turning a planet into a shittier Earth when, if you're the kind of civilization that can actually contemplate such activities, you could simply just build bespoke environments to your specific needs?
DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Apr 14, 2023 |
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Apr 14, 2023 16:09
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One pet peeve of mine is they give a source/link saying we can glimpse this system appearing in The Expanse but the link just goes to another article that just makes the claim but without a link. I was expecting like a screenshot or a YouTube clip but no!DrSunshine posted:When I think about how hard it is to do this (for me at least) in Kerbal Space Program, I just get so impressed by how we're able to pull things like sending probes to orbit moons around Jupiter or rendezvous with comets and asteroids. Amazing stuff. It's been a while since I played KSP but isn't it basically manual control? quote:
I mean you kinda answer the question, if we're able to colonize Mars then we will because we can. Like why build pyramids or coliseums when a hole in the ground will do for the former etc. But also I think it's going to be because we'd be such a rich enough civilization that we can do many things at the same time, some people will build habitats, other groups will try to terraform venus and mars. Also I imagine that these two things aren't going to become equally viable at the same time, and will get effort and resources as the feasibility and circumstances allows. For Unlimited Habitat Works you need to have an extensive economic infrastructure in place, before we start really assembly lining habitats like new gentrified apartment condos. While Mars we could in theory get the ball rolling a lot sooner as it just requires sending rockets with Stuff(tm) to setup an outpost and start doing research and experiments. The processes involved once serious terra forming efforts begin as described in an kurzgesagt video is like, swarms of robotz and satallites doing their thing. We don't need to be that much more of an advanced society to physically be capable of starting it. Its like setting a microwave for a very long time and waiting as a civilization for it to go ding. While space habitats while yeah does also involve lots of rockets and robots I think requires a little more setup. But they can also complement each other too, that space infrastructure would be very useful and convenient to build more robots and space lasers to terraform mars in a sorta von Neuman probe semi automatic process. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Apr 14, 2023 |
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Apr 14, 2023 16:13
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DrSunshine posted:I really really don't get this and I guess that's why I'm on the "Space habitats" side instead of the "Terraforming" side. Why on earth ( Terrorism concerns! If you're in a space habitat, it only takes one lunatic ( ) to vent your atmosphere, and that's a big bummer for anyone trying to breathe. Much harder for an individual to destroy a planet's atmosphere.(Yes yes you'd build a habitat with complex air lock systems so it wouldn't happen so easily, but it's a great catastrophe movie moment to imagine an O'Neill cylinder having a huge hole blown on its side)
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Apr 14, 2023 16:19
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Look if you're a Kardashev Level 1 civilization that still has to worry about space terrorists blowing up your space habitats, you don't get to call yourself a true Kardashev Level 1 civilization, I tell you what. 
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Apr 14, 2023 16:22
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DrSunshine posted:I really really don't get this and I guess that's why I'm on the "Space habitats" side instead of the "Terraforming" side. Why on earth ( 1. It is easier to imagine a planet than a space base; 'Mars' is a known place, 'Side 3' is not 2. You could probably half-rear end/dome it as an intermediary step with a planet, while a hab needs to be partially complete 3. Planet has lots of rock and trash laying around, plus possible science targets; you can build a train to the mine instead of dicking around with rockets or mass launchers 4. Enlivening Mars or Tau Ceti IV might have very long-term ecological adaptations in a way a space hab didn't, so you're spreading (an) ecological web, "Gaia," not just humans plus support organisms 5. Souls still bound down by Earth's gravity 6. Roll twice, ignoring this result
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Apr 14, 2023 16:24
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DrSunshine posted:Look if you're a Kardashev Level 1 civilization that still has to worry about space terrorists blowing up your space habitats, you don't get to call yourself a true Kardashev Level 1 civilization, I tell you what. That's fair, you'd think they could afford socialized medicine and providing therapy to anyone wanting to blow poo poo up. It just usually doesn't work out that way in sci-fi, like you have people trying to blow up Babylon 5 on a regular basis, etc.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:24
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Rappaport posted:That's fair, you'd think they could afford socialized medicine and providing therapy to anyone wanting to blow poo poo up. It just usually doesn't work out that way in sci-fi, like you have people trying to blow up Babylon 5 on a regular basis, etc.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:27
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Nessus posted:While I'm sure many of us would read the gripping narrative of people in a fully realized and only moderately dysfunctional Type 1 civilization dicking about whether to settle Barnard's Star by planetary fertilization or by breaking the planets down to build habitats, it isn't as "jazzy" as if you have dudes blowing poo poo up with space guns and killing quadrillions of humans off-screen. Yeah, catastrophe stories are more gripping, at least sometimes. I'm trying to think here. The "big dumb object" genre of sci-fi has somewhat mundane situations too, like Rama (the first one) is kind of peaceful in what it is trying to do, and Rama itself is a huge space habitat. Ringworld features a major catastrophe at the start when they crash-land on the, erm, Ringworld itself, and the rest is kind of a survival story, but there's no world destroying scenarios until the later books/when someone pointed out some inconvenient math facts. What about Asimov's Foundation? The criticism I saw thrown against it plenty around the time the awful television series came about was that the books are more or less about dudes sitting in rooms chatting. They kind of terraform Terminus, don't they? In the books I mean, it was meant to be a pretty hostile world.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:35
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The universe is full of space and dead planets, let’s bring life to it and make a few paradise. Decorate, spruce things up a little.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:36
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For me, "generational crews" triggers a big flag of ethics.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:38
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I'm just saying, like, if you build a big enough habitat it literally is a generation ship. You don't even need to devolve into some kind of communal bunker survival society, it's like, just live your best lives and your distant descendants will get to enjoy a bunch of different solar systems eventually.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:38
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Cheesus posted:For me, "generational crews" triggers a big flag of ethics. Less than sending people to Australia surely though? Gatts posted:The universe is full of space and dead planets, let’s bring life to it and make a few paradise. Decorate, spruce things up a little. Also there might be the ethical concern like in the Lower Decks episode about microbial life we might find on habitual worlds that might one day evolve into sentient creatures. Terraforming dead rocks side steps that issue.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:41
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But what about later generations consent to not being doomed to a space ship and they’re like “But I wanted to live on Earth and have a croissant at the Eiffel Tower instead I am on a ship shot into space…..”
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Apr 14, 2023 16:41
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Gatts posted:But what about later generations consent to not being doomed to a space ship and they’re like “But I wanted to live on Earth and have a croissant at the Eiffel Tower instead I am on a ship shot into space…..” We have croissants in Space.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:43
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Gatts posted:But what about later generations consent to not being doomed to a space ship and they’re like “But I wanted to live on Earth and have a croissant at the Eiffel Tower instead I am on a ship shot into space…..” I feel like this is getting very close to contentious topics like is it ethical to have children *today* because climate change etc. At some point children are not going to have the ability to see something their ancestors once did due to the natural passage of time, they'll build their own eiffal tower, with space black jack.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:44
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DrSunshine posted:I really really don't get this and I guess that's why I'm on the "Space habitats" side instead of the "Terraforming" side. Why on earth ( There is no reasonable way of altering Mars' surface gravity so once the resources and scientific potential are fully exploited it will be used as a massive low-G sports park (think 17776).
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Apr 14, 2023 16:51
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DrSunshine posted:We have croissants in Space. That's an interesting topic in general. What would you bring along in your O'Neill cylinder? Would you have birds? Predators? How much wild-life in general? You'd need to bring meat-animals, I suppose, but those are often regarded as boring. What about insect life? Would you bring along ants? Beetles? Mosquitoes? I guess a lot of this would depend on trying to design a sustainable eco-system and food chain. Bees or humming birds? Humming birds weigh more as individuals, but bees make big communities and are quite hefty that way.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:51
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Ecosystem design is a whole other set of problems that we really don't know how to solve. It would be extremely easy for a constructed eco-system to just collapse for any number of reasons. When that happens on earth there's outside organisms ready to move into the niches left, but on a generation ship? You're hosed.
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Apr 14, 2023 17:01
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Aurora is a pretty good hard sci-fi book that delves into a lot about the self-sustainability of a generation ship. It's also, coincidentally, very depressing!
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Apr 14, 2023 17:07
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eXXon posted:There is no reasonable way of altering Mars' surface gravity so once the resources and scientific potential are fully exploited it will be used as a massive low-G sports park (think 17776). Honestly I am really really leery about any kind of long-term Mars project. Like, this is an entire-rear end planet that's up till pretty recently, more or less untouched by Earth life - a planet that could, if not a possible source of a second biogenesis, possibly be (or formerly) host to an entirely separate lineage of life that split off from us at the prokaryote level. And largely it's unmapped at the micro level. If we go there assuming it's always been sterile, we might gently caress it up with our own biosphere, destroying evidence of an independent Martian genesis. In fact, we might have already even done that, despite the various measures that the Mars missions have taken over the past few decades. I'd rather that we at most put a bunch of scientists on it to do long-term studies and mapping.
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Apr 14, 2023 17:07
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