Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

«‹›1312 »

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Nessus posted:

They did eat a lot of legumes in Sumeria.

"Well, uh, beans were a staple of the Israelites. Proceed!"

# ? Apr 12, 2023 10:29

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 10, 2024 12:47

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

FFT posted:

To tie into the other discussion, one of the only episodes I actually watched back in the day had Jack the Ripper as an abductee diplomat or something?

The Vorlons, an alien race who had a long history of tampering with mankind, abducted him, taught him what he was doing was wrong, and then put him into stasis, to take him out to interrogate the true motives of those people the Vorlons took as their agents.

# ? Apr 12, 2023 22:00

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Honestly I think the humour thing is just something that a bit of thinking should be able to figure out the idea of, especially comparing to genres of humour that are familiar to us. Anti-humour and subversion of expectations all relies on tone and build-up that's lost when told second-hand without the original tone and timing. And on the other hand, while Who's On First obviously would be nonsense translated directly, it's not hard to imagine every spoken language has its equivalent of what's an entire genre of jokes. (Heck, My Little Pony had a Who's On First routine based on their gimmicky toy names)

And on the other hand, like I said with the Sumerian fox, sometimes if you look the right way you suddenly see familiar archetypes jump right out at you from thousands of years ago or miles away. Like say, the wildly egotistical idiot with boundless confidence right up until something looks like it might be hard.

There's a big gap between "knowledge" and "reasonable speculation." The fact that we can kind of twist our heads and see a way in which a given thing could be funny doesn't mean that it was received as funny in that way by people in the past. We can see this even with humor that presently exists. Jeff Dunham will likely go down as the most successful comedian of my lifetime, and I just find it kind of appalling.

Jeff Dunham is actually an interesting case. A major function of humor is to establish who is and is not a member of the in-group. Who is getting laughed at and who is laughing. There's really no punchline to a lot of his jokes other than "haha its cool how Muslims aren't people." Which is also an illustration of the historical utility of taking jokes seriously! If we can suss out some of what's going on with a joke, we can learn about common concerns and prejudices. But it's also I'd say bit of a distance between having some suspicion about what hte joke is and having real confidence.

Ultimately the big issue with historical humor is that a huge percentage of humor is based on context. Context that we do not, and very likely will not, ever have. And we can work around that, that is a lot of the work of history, but that's not the same as it being easy.

# ? Apr 13, 2023 02:28

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Anthony Kaldellis has a full narrative history of the ERE coming out in October, that's exciting. Thousand pages covering the entire period from Constantinople's foundation to the end. I can't think of any of those in English that have been published in quite a while, will be nice to have a basic text with current thinking.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 05:03

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Grand Fromage posted:

Anthony Kaldellis has a full narrative history of the ERE coming out in October, that's exciting. Thousand pages covering the entire period from Constantinople's foundation to the end. I can't think of any of those in English that have been published in quite a while, will be nice to have a basic text with current thinking.

Yeah I'm mad hype. I hope an edition of it comes out at not gently caress you academic press prices. I think he has enough of an audience to get it at least out there at a premium hardcover price in regular bookstores. I'll probably try to preorder when available if it's not several hundred dollars.

Do you bring this up because of the ep of History of Byzantium that came out today? Because some of his analysis on that has me even more excited to read it.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 05:08

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Amazon has "The New Roman Empire: A History of Byzantium" priced at $45 (October 1, 2023 release date).

And yeah, that was a good ep today.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 05:29

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Yeah I'm crazy excited for that book, I'll probably buy it even if it is priced at "it's a textbook gently caress you" levels.

I'm amused that he calls it "the beast", and also think it's cool that he's doing a very non-Byzantine run on Byzantium and Friends to get into some new to him material as a break.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 06:14

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I'm reminded of how in Babylon 5, apparently Earth's most popular cultural export is The Three Stooges.

You get some of that even between contemporary cultures. I was amazed at how popular Benny Hill and Are You Being Served? still were in the US when I moved there around 2003 or so - basically totally forgotten here in the UK by then. Or this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinner_for_One - nobody here's heard of it but apparently it was/is a huge thing in Germany.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 10:08

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

I'm not surprised, especially with Are You Being Served? being on the nose enough about the British class system and stereotypes for the audience to pick up on what the joke is meant to be, and those being all the funnier to a different culture.

Also reminded that Columbo is huge in Japan apparently because they already had a tradition of detective stories in a similar mould- where the audience learns who did the crime and how at the beginning, and the reveal is how the detective figures it out- which it slotted right into.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 11:47

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I'm not surprised, especially with Are You Being Served? being on the nose enough about the British class system and stereotypes for the audience to pick up on what the joke is meant to be, and those being all the funnier to a different culture.

Keeping Up Appearances is disproportionately popular outside UK too

# ? Apr 15, 2023 11:52

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

A lot of that is just "what shows does local us public television get rights for."

What I miss is the 1990s golden age of British mystery shows, all rebroadcast on PBS Mystery!

Poirot, campion, Marple, Brett's Sherlock, etc.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 12:39

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

A lot of that is just "what shows does local us public television get rights for."

What I miss is the 1990s golden age of British mystery shows, all rebroadcast on PBS Mystery!

Poirot, campion, Marple, Brett's Sherlock, etc.

Lovejoy was good

# ? Apr 15, 2023 12:41

Mr. Nice!: Oct 13, 2005; c-spam cannot afford

Grand Fromage posted:

Anthony Kaldellis has a full narrative history of the ERE coming out in October, that's exciting. Thousand pages covering the entire period from Constantinople's foundation to the end. I can't think of any of those in English that have been published in quite a while, will be nice to have a basic text with current thinking.

I read Kaldellis as Kiedis at first and was very confused.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 13:23

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

CommonShore posted:

Lovejoy was good

See, I missed that one entirely because it never made PBS and we didn't have cable in the 1990s. I wonder if we can catch it on Britbox now.

Fake edit: it's on Prime! Thanks!

# ? Apr 15, 2023 15:12

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

See, I missed that one entirely because it never made PBS and we didn't have cable in the 1990s. I wonder if we can catch it on Britbox now.

Fake edit: it's on Prime! Thanks!

Disclaimer I haven't watched it since like 1996 but I remember it being good and it has a good cast

# ? Apr 15, 2023 15:20

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

I wish we'd get a new Ken Burns version of American Civil War and that of Roman history, both. I know that ACW was already done but I'd like some CGI illustrations and animations, and less of Shelby Foote.
With Rome, where modern CGI stands, we could have some impressive long form docuseries.

# ? Apr 15, 2023 15:53

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

CommonShore posted:

Do you bring this up because of the ep of History of Byzantium that came out today? Because some of his analysis on that has me even more excited to read it.

Yeah. I know a bunch of you dweebs listen but I figure some don't.

Justice for Heraclius. :argh:

# ? Apr 15, 2023 16:10

Benagain: Oct 10, 2007; Can you see that I am serious?; Fun Shoe

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

A lot of that is just "what shows does local us public television get rights for."

What I miss is the 1990s golden age of British mystery shows, all rebroadcast on PBS Mystery!

Poirot, campion, Marple, Brett's Sherlock, etc.

For a large part of my childhood this was one of the few things we were allowed to stay up late for.

# ? Apr 16, 2023 01:14

Wafflecopper: Nov 27, 2004; I am a mouth, and I must scream

Mr. Nice! posted:

I read Kaldellis as Kiedis at first and was very confused.

# ? Apr 16, 2023 04:22

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Grand Fromage posted:

Anthony Kaldellis has a full narrative history of the ERE coming out in October, that's exciting. Thousand pages covering the entire period from Constantinople's foundation to the end. I can't think of any of those in English that have been published in quite a while, will be nice to have a basic text with current thinking.

Is there an ebook?

# ? Apr 16, 2023 04:44

sixth and maimed: Mar 20, 2012; Fun Shoe

I was hoping the thread could help me with something: "Saga: Age of Hannibal" is a wargame set in the time of the Punic wars (hence the name). You can play as republican Romans, Cartheginians, Gauls, Numidians, etc. You play with miniatures you paint yourself, which is part of the fun for a lot of people. I've ordered the Romans as my first army, and I was hoping the thread could point me in the direction of some resources to how the Roman legianaries from that time period looked. It would be too much to hope the miniatures are completely time period correct, but I can at least try to get the colours and markings correct. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

# ? Apr 17, 2023 18:26

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Pop by our Historicals thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3248082&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

There are usually a couple ancient heads in there.

# ? Apr 17, 2023 18:37

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I'm not surprised, especially with Are You Being Served? being on the nose enough about the British class system and stereotypes for the audience to pick up on what the joke is meant to be, and those being all the funnier to a different culture.

Also reminded that Columbo is huge in Japan apparently because they already had a tradition of detective stories in a similar mould- where the audience learns who did the crime and how at the beginning, and the reveal is how the detective figures it out- which it slotted right into.

Another example is the German SF-series Perry Rhodan, running since 1963 and in a Penny Dreaful-Format (think novella). For some reason, every attempt at English Perry Rhodan just auto-fails, as if there's some sort of cultural disconnect preventing the format from working at all, while other countries, especially Japan for some reason, have successful runs.

Japan of course being a special case, since if you take two volumes of Perry Rhodan and put them together, you get approximately one light novel. Now do the math. Also, I'd ask which format you think Perry Rhodan uses in Japan, but that's a riddle a five-year old could solve at this point. :v:

# ? Apr 17, 2023 18:52

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I'm not surprised, especially with Are You Being Served? being on the nose enough about the British class system and stereotypes for the audience to pick up on what the joke is meant to be, and those being all the funnier to a different culture.

Are You Being Served? also had the advantage with American audiences of retail work being very familiar with a lot of (but not enough) people. Most of the characters were automatically sympathetic to a good chunk of the audience.

# ? Apr 17, 2023 18:56

RC and Moon Pie: May 5, 2011

mllaneza posted:

Are You Being Served? also had the advantage with American audiences of retail work being very familiar with a lot of (but not enough) people. Most of the characters were automatically sympathetic to a good chunk of the audience.

and a lot of sex jokes

# ? Apr 18, 2023 02:07

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

RC and Moon Pie posted:

and a lot of sex jokes

You catch as catch can.

# ? Apr 18, 2023 02:13

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I'm not surprised, especially with Are You Being Served? being on the nose enough about the British class system and stereotypes for the audience to pick up on what the joke is meant to be, and those being all the funnier to a different culture.

Also reminded that Columbo is huge in Japan apparently because they already had a tradition of detective stories in a similar mould- where the audience learns who did the crime and how at the beginning, and the reveal is how the detective figures it out- which it slotted right into.

Oh man, Jotaro even refers to it. It's been huge for a while

# ? Apr 18, 2023 02:30

sixth and maimed: Mar 20, 2012; Fun Shoe

Tias posted:

Pop by our Historicals thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3248082&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

There are usually a couple ancient heads in there.

Thank you Tias, I'll take a look over there.

# ? Apr 18, 2023 06:44

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Experimental archeologists discover that helmets are too hot and heavy.

Apparently Roman and Greek soldiers on the march wore cheap and simple broad-brimmed hats! And we have depictions of this!

# ? Apr 19, 2023 03:18

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

Arglebargle III posted:

Experimental archeologists discover that helmets are too hot and heavy.

Apparently Roman and Greek soldiers on the march wore cheap and simple broad-brimmed hats! And we have depictions of this!

Boonies just makes sense.
So naturally while our currently military has them we are generally not allowed to wear them.

# ? Apr 19, 2023 04:27

500excf type r: Mar 7, 2013; I'm as annoying as the high-pitched whine of my motorcycle, desperately compensating for the lack of substance in my life.

Arglebargle III posted:

Experimental archeologists discover that helmets are too hot and heavy.

Apparently Roman and Greek soldiers on the march wore cheap and simple broad-brimmed hats! And we have depictions of this!

Lol looks like a bare pot belly at first glance

# ? Apr 19, 2023 04:36

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

A lot of art, and as a result a lot of people, has trouble understanding armour is something you only want to be wearing when you're going into battle.

# ? Apr 19, 2023 11:14

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

A lot of art, and as a result a lot of people, has trouble understanding armour is something you only want to be wearing when you're going into battle.

A lot of art also depicts soldiers in what amount to parades. Victory celebrations and processions etc. Which, yeah, you're going to suit up in that poo poo then too because no one wants to see a parade of dudes slouching along how they actually would on a march.

Edit: For example, imagine if space archeologists 10,000 years from now thought that Prussian soldiers got everywhere by goose stepping.

# ? Apr 19, 2023 13:43

Tosk: Feb 22, 2013; I am sorry. I have no vices for you to exploit.

Apologies if this has been covered extensively at some point by the thread. I'm curious about contacts between ancient empires and less advanced or even tribal civilizations. I just want to indulge a curiosity about that context specifically and I don't have any particular preference besides that it be before ~1600 or so. Does anyone have any recommendations?

I don't mind reading sources either, for example I figure Herodotus should probably be one of my first stops. If anyone has any recommendations for good editions of such material with regards to footnotes to give a non-academic reader context, that would be great.

# ? Apr 21, 2023 22:57

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Tosk posted:

Apologies if this has been covered extensively at some point by the thread. I'm curious about contacts between ancient empires and less advanced or even tribal civilizations. I just want to indulge a curiosity about that context specifically and I don't have any particular preference besides that it be before ~1600 or so. Does anyone have any recommendations?

I don't mind reading sources either, for example I figure Herodotus should probably be one of my first stops. If anyone has any recommendations for good editions of such material with regards to footnotes to give a non-academic reader context, that would be great.

My favorite is Life and Society in the Hittite World, which is overall a social history of a kingdom, but the Hittites were a pretty pluralistic empire and so relations between the Hittites, Mittani, Egyptians, Luwians, and Canaanites is a significant part of it. I haven't read it yet but the same author wrote The Kingdom of the Hittites which I think focuses more on their place in a foreign policy context.

Its also not the focus of it but Stone Age Economics does go pretty good into depth about foreign relations that stone age groups have between each other. It is old as hell.

The Open Empire covers a wider range of history than you're looking for precisely, but at least the first several chapters are very good for what you're looking for and I think will cover something neat: which is that China was a regional hegemon basically as long as we have history, so its foreign relations are basically never understood to be peer-to-peer.

Tulip fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 21, 2023

# ? Apr 21, 2023 23:14

a fatguy baldspot: Aug 29, 2018

# ? Apr 22, 2023 00:32

Fuschia tude: Dec 26, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

Cyrano4747 posted:

A lot of art also depicts soldiers in what amount to parades. Victory celebrations and processions etc. Which, yeah, you're going to suit up in that poo poo then too because no one wants to see a parade of dudes slouching along how they actually would on a march.

Edit: For example, imagine if space archeologists 10,000 years from now thought that Prussian soldiers got everywhere by goose stepping.

You're telling me they didn't conscript the giraffes into goose stepping divisions? :sigh:

# ? Apr 22, 2023 20:55

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund