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The amount of healing is well balanced by the fact that you have to make your opening to do so yourself within fairly narrow windows of opportunity
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Apr 18, 2023 16:05
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Snazzy Frocks posted:I gotta say I am thoroughly unimpressed with the quest system in this game. I didn't even know I was on quests for most of the game except for the ones that coincided with my progression I agree. Even if there was the most rudimentary quest log it would help learning the game quite a bit. It wouldn't even need map beacons and stuff like that, just a list of "this person asked you to do this."
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Apr 18, 2023 16:41
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No it's good the way it is.
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Apr 18, 2023 16:54
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There's probably a balance that's a bit more active of tracking that doesn't become instantly too much, like give me just an in game journal I can add notes to even, but I do like it how it is. You miss out on some stuff but that's a 100% for sure guarantee your first time through anyway, and the NPC stuff isn't the main show. Feeling like these other NPCs were on their own quests that I'd have to make sure to listen closely and read descriptions and think if I want to keep up with them was fantastic and a big part of why I fell in love with DS1. Giving it some thought, I think an in-game notebook (replace some of the leaf and flower blue items in the world with colored chalk or something) and NPCs that you exhaust the dialogue of and for whom doing so would make sense should leave a message hinting at where they're going as some do already. Like Nepheli at the village leaves one "The work here is done, now onto hiding perfectly motionless in the shadows at the roundtable hold so the Tarnished misses a good early game talisman."
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Apr 18, 2023 17:11
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the very limited healing in dark souls 1 made exploration tense and made healing miracles a major selling point of faith in a way that none of the other souls games really matched, partial exception of dark souls 3 since it only occasionally gives you estus refills. You can carry so many lifegems and grasses that taking a hit doesn’t feel worrying beyond whether that individual fight is going to kill you. Elden ring couldn’t follow the same model as DS1 entirely since it’s open world but the dungeons sort of get there since they have no flask refills. But stormveil was the only part where I felt much real risk of running out because the graces are often pretty close together in dungeons and there are a bunch of ways to restore heath besides the flask/incantations.
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Apr 18, 2023 17:12
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You, the player, are the quest giver. Only you can tell why you are stuck fighting blackflame kindred for 3 hours, while dressed as a giant mushroom. It's your story, track your own bloody progress. (Real talk here: I really hated how several Npc quests update their state only if you log-out/leave, even if the next step would be "talk to this idiot again". Millicent and Sellen are the worst offenders) Goatson fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 17:54
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CommonShore posted:I agree. Even if there was the most rudimentary quest log it would help learning the game quite a bit. It wouldn't even need map beacons and stuff like that, just a list of "this person asked you to do this." The game has a rudimentary quest log with map beacons, though. It just only comes up when you are given a quest, which happens like... less than ten times throughout the course of the game?
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Apr 18, 2023 18:11
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Elden ring putting icons on the map is fuckin insane. The equivalent in dark souls was like those cutscenes showing either sens fortress gate opening or the golden glowy fog walls disappearing.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:22
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a quest log would mess with the tone of npc interactions by reframing them from events into obligations
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Apr 18, 2023 18:25
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The quests and NPCs feel like intentional callbacks to some anachronistic systems that went out of style for a reason but that are still fun to return to for some of us. It's understandable why some people don't like them, but also they can be fun and a nice change from how every other game handles them now.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:27
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Fitzy Fitz posted:The quests and NPCs feel like intentional callbacks to some anachronistic systems that went out of style for a reason but that are still fun to return to for some of us. It's understandable why some people don't like them, but also they can be fun and a nice change from how every other game handles them now. This sums it up well for me I think, I like how it feels like a throwback and not in a nostalgia way, but rather in the unique Souls game way where playing it has ruined other games for me because now I notice this stuff. I genuinely feel a DIY questlog via a notebook you buy from Kale that you can draw and write in bridges the gap in the best way while also giving From something to put around the place that isn't more leaves and flowers since "hey there's an item up there!" is their primary way of telling you a place is somewhere you can and should go.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:31
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I mean I certainly blew past NPCs then only went back to speedrun their quests much later after I saw stuff about them online. (And like, apparently that Boc guy has a whole storyline I never finished, I think I left him in a cave). I do kinda wish things were a notch easier to keep track of, though I agree that would also lose something that makes this series special.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:40
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CommonShore posted:I agree. Even if there was the most rudimentary quest log it would help learning the game quite a bit. It wouldn't even need map beacons and stuff like that, just a list of "this person asked you to do this." I don't care if people say it will ruin the flow or tone or whatever, at this point a log to just keep track of things people mentioned (not even outright quests, just notes really), seems completely viable and in-keeping with the game. The lack of direction worked better in the Dark Souls games but in the massive open world that is Elden Ring it was just kind of dumb and either way most people probably ended up consulting a walkthrough to make sure they didn't miss out on anything, so why not just have a little bit more tracking in the game itself.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:42
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reminds me of hand drawn maps & notepads of objectives from everquest
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Apr 18, 2023 18:52
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khwarezm posted:most people probably ended up consulting a walkthrough to make sure they didn't miss out on anything, Hard same lol I'm fine with it though. I do a lot more wandering around and discovering than completing errands for voice actors.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:57
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Omnomnomnivore posted:(And like, apparently that Boc guy has a whole storyline I never finished, I think I left him in a cave). I'm calling the police.
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Apr 18, 2023 19:19
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Omnomnomnivore posted:I mean I certainly blew past NPCs then only went back to speedrun their quests much later after I saw stuff about them online. (And like, apparently that Boc guy has a whole storyline I never finished, I think I left him in a cave). I do kinda wish things were a notch easier to keep track of, though I agree that would also lose something that makes this series special. Yeah this is what i did with millicent. I happened to read somewhere she was supposed to be at somewhere in the haligtree. I missed her at atlus plateu since i did the whole caelid region later in the game.
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Apr 18, 2023 19:25
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All the quest npcs have a map icon after you meet them for the first time right? My plan has been to go visit them whenever I have a lack of things to do and see if they have something new to say. Although idk where that one bush guy got off to after I released him from his curse
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Apr 18, 2023 19:27
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I just decided to read guides to do the quests I can still do after farum though I reached the point where limgrave will not have a suitable leader. I'll see what else I missed before finishing the game
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Apr 18, 2023 19:30
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Hawkperson posted:All the quest npcs have a map icon after you meet them for the first time right? My plan has been to go visit them whenever I have a lack of things to do and see if they have something new to say. Although idk where that one bush guy got off to after I released him from his curse See that's the thing that I found annoying too: he told you where we was going, but there's no in-game way to figure that out if you didn't catch what he said.
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Apr 18, 2023 19:33
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Hawkperson posted:All the quest npcs have a map icon after you meet them for the first time right? My plan has been to go visit them whenever I have a lack of things to do and see if they have something new to say. Although idk where that one bush guy got off to after I released him from his curse It shows where you last saw them, and disappears if you go back and they're not there.
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Apr 18, 2023 19:34
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I only rest at bongraces if i need the flask refill, and as mentioned you can survive a long time, so having a bunch of lore convos only happen when you rest at them is bad. Or moving an npc to it but only if you rest there first. Less of an issue in the more linear souls games but it doesn't work as well in an open world
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Apr 18, 2023 19:38
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I’m probably in the minority here but it’s hard to imagine something less in the spirit of the game than a quest log. I get wanting to 100% things but yeesh, just look it up after that magical first playthrough where the world is big and mysterious and not another checklist
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Apr 18, 2023 19:38
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Ben Nerevarine posted:I’m probably in the minority here but it’s hard to imagine something less in the spirit of the game than a quest log. I get wanting to 100% things but yeesh, just look it up after that magical first playthrough where the world is big and mysterious and not another checklist This is what I did and I highly recommend it.
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Apr 18, 2023 19:49
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I don't know about an actual quest tracker, but the broader point is that there's room for improvement in that area. Based on the past games, NPC map pins are "against the spirit of souls" but the devs correctly saw that a touch more guidance was warranted. You could even think of it as the guidance of Grace.
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Apr 18, 2023 19:52
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I mean the quests have been improving game by game so we will likely get a quest log eventually. Markers on the over world probably not
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Apr 18, 2023 19:54
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I'd even be happy with a way to just review dialogue
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Apr 18, 2023 19:55
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I think people would be happier if the Elden Ring approach to quests was described as "it's bad, but in a way that I like" rather than trying to say "it's good." It isn't good. It's bad! But it's bad in a way where the game would be less like Elden Ring if you fixed any of the things that make it incredibly irritating.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:01
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Rand Brittain posted:I think people would be happier if the Elden Ring approach to quests was described as "it's bad, but in a way that I like" rather than trying to say "it's good." It isn't good. It's bad! But it's bad in a way where the game would be less like Elden Ring if you fixed any of the things that make it incredibly irritating. I genuinely, truly, deep down, believe that how "quests" in Elden Ring even at release were good and I liked them. I do think there's room for improvements though, and they're largely the same wish I've had for any game where things are vague and try-it-and-find-out, which is a notebook function that is properly integrated into the theme and story somehow and not just a reskinned notepad. In the end though I'd rather nothing change than things become more like what is now the traditional way of handling the issue.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:06
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It's actually good, though. I hate having everything check pointed and a task list given to me like so much work. These games are refreshingly different ... and good. Like you can complete the game without doing a single side quest or talking to most people. But you'll miss out on lore and alternate, possibly deeper endings. But it's so freaking great the game isn't afraid of you missing out on "content" and hence thrusting it all in your face all the time.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:06
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v1ld posted:It's actually good, though. I hate having everything check pointed and a task list given to me like so much work. These games are refreshingly different ... and good. Make it a setting you can toggle like the HUD in Witcher then lol. "You have to write things in a notebook" is a weird attempt at artistic vision. Like there's a reason games moved beyond that. It reminds me of the Wildstar devs who thought the problem with modern WoW was a lack of attunement questlines.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:13
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Rand Brittain posted:I think people would be happier if the Elden Ring approach to quests was described as "it's bad, but in a way that I like" rather than trying to say "it's good." It isn't good. It's bad! But it's bad in a way where the game would be less like Elden Ring if you fixed any of the things that make it incredibly irritating. Nah, this is just saying the more ease of use features a game has the gooder it is, which I strongly disagree with. From games are good because they have obtuse and sometimes hostile design which doesn't follow modern industry principles
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Apr 18, 2023 20:14
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One thing that would help would be slightly more detail from NPCs. Millicent is a great example of the issues with Fromsoft NPC questlines. As was mentioned above, you have to reload the area multiple times with her, and she moves to a wildly different part of the world. there was no reason she could not tell the player "i intend to head north, to the Altus Plateau" or something to at least give you a general idea where to find her. Same for Hyetta, who moves in a relatively straight line north at first, but nothing tells the player that. Morrowind did this without breadcrumbs or anything, it just told the player where to go and you had to figure it out. without adding a full on quest log, they could at least add a journal that records what NPCs said and allows the player to revisit it and thus figure out where to go without a walkthrough.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:16
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Marx Headroom posted:Make it a setting you can toggle like the HUD in Witcher then lol. "You have to write things in a notebook" is a weird attempt at artistic vision. Like there's a reason games moved beyond that. It reminds me of the Wildstar devs who thought the problem with modern WoW was a lack of attunement questlines. What's weird about it? Just like with difficulty settings, these aren't cosmetic things - the game itself has to be designed around them, or one or both sides will become useless or incoherent. Like you've got a quest log but it's saying nothing because it won't actually give you the location until you find them again based on what they said, or Alexander says "I'll head east!" and your map magically figures out he meant he'll be at 75, -10, 160 at the marker that's there now and you're just moving down a checklist via fast travel like any other game. It's a very rare thing for a game to trust its players, I'd rather go back to DS1 than sacrifice that. There's other stuff like boss runbacks that people defended right up until they were gone and now suddenly everybody agrees they were a dumb idea, but imho this isn't in that league. Making progression without having to quit out and come back or grace warp to change the NPC's state would be very nice tho, now THAT is something that feels like a relic of an older era even though it actually isn't. v v v that's exactly how my first playthrough went lmao, I still get the urge to do another Starscourge swords run, my favorite weapons by a country mile and they've been buffed big time since then v v v Epic High Five fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 20:19
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v1ld posted:It's actually good, though. I hate having everything check pointed and a task list given to me like so much work. These games are refreshingly different ... and good. i love that my cousin who is the farthest thing from a completionist or a wiki-consulter was able to stumble through the game until he found the starscourge greatswords and then use them to beat the rest of it. no checklists or notes or "quests" required. he only had one quest, which was to burn the loving erdtree and become elden lord
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Apr 18, 2023 20:22
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Having a log of what people said to me would be nice, though.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:25
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Subjunctive posted:Having a log of what people said to me would be nice, though. well, yeah. even writing it down as its spoken would take some court stenographer skills
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Apr 18, 2023 20:26
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Epic High Five posted:What's weird about it? Just like with difficulty settings, these aren't cosmetic things - the game itself has to be designed around them, or one or both sides will become useless or incoherent. It's weird bc you're pretending the internet doesn't exist and people won't write FAQs and pass them around. I get that locking yourself in a remote cabin and mainlining ER is better than heroin but that's not how games have worked for like 30 years and you can't force people to play it like that. They're gonna share info with each other and seek out video guides. So if your game intends to cultivate a certain "going into it blind" experience, it failed upon conception, and the more it tries to force that experience by stripping QoL features, the more awkward and apparent that failure appears.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:28
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Rand Brittain posted:I think people would be happier if the Elden Ring approach to quests was described as "it's bad, but in a way that I like" rather than trying to say "it's good." It isn't good. It's bad! But it's bad in a way where the game would be less like Elden Ring if you fixed any of the things that make it incredibly irritating. Its good because I like it. That's not complicated.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:38
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Marx Headroom posted:It's weird bc you're pretending the internet doesn't exist and people won't write FAQs and pass them around. I get that locking yourself in a remote cabin and mainlining ER is better than heroin but that's not how games have worked for like 30 years and you can't force people to play it like that. They're gonna share info with each other and seek out video guides. This is stupid. You're stupid. The game can still build friction into its design under the assumption that not every player is going to go on a wiki and spoil themselves. You may as well say difficulty is pointless because the player could cheatengine through it
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Apr 18, 2023 20:39
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