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It's interesting that you say that Mongol heavy cavalry (even just at cavaliers) has had a resurgence. I remember a ton of chatter back when The Conquerors was current that maybe the Mongols should be limited to Knights. With the addition of Steppe Lancers for additional cavalry flexibility, their access to heavy cav and heavy camels seems even more wild.
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Apr 17, 2023 22:29
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This is the only thing that I know about competitive AoE2 (oh God it's almost a decade old) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Czb64v3WMY
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Apr 17, 2023 23:01
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Since a couple posts asked for my opinion on stuff, I'll chime in early before playing the game some more. - I want to get through all of the campaigns before trying out custom stuff. I'm not averse to the idea generally speaking, but remember that we're only 3.33 campaigns done out of a couple dozen, and there's going to be at least one more set added before the LP is over... which also means that I'm kinda obliged to make this an AoE1 LP inside of an AoE2 LP now? I don't know too much about the mod scene though, I was never really into it, so if we get to that point I'll need to take recommendations or else you're just getting whatever random stuff I remember, like The Last Neanderthal and Gwyndlegard. - Sure, go nuts with the civ reviews. I wanted to do some myself, but just getting the updates out is turning out to be enough for me.
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Apr 17, 2023 23:30
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And then there's the whole compare-and-contrast with AOE4! (please do not do this to yourself)
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Apr 17, 2023 23:56
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The sowing fields with salt thing of course, is what they said Rome did to Carthage. Just like how this games narration describes something that didn't happen. that didn't happen either. No one had that much salt.
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Apr 18, 2023 01:20
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Competitive Multiplayer Overview: The Saracens Unique Unit: Mameluke - camel cavalry with ranged attack Unique Techs: Zealotry: Gives camel units +20 HP Counterweights: Trebuchets and Mangonel-line +15% attack Civ Bonuses: The commodity trading fee is 5%. Markets cost 75 wood. Transport Ships have double HP and +5 carry capacity Galleys attack 25% faster Camel units +10 HP Foot archers have +3 attack against standard buildings Competitive Rating: Below Average The Saracens are a good example of a certain kind of civilization in AoE 2. They get a lot of bonuses to different things, but few of their bonuses synergize with each other to favor a particular kind of unit or a particular style of play. They're kind of a naval civ. They're kind of a camel civ. They're kind of an archer civ. They're kind of a siege civ. They're kind of a monk civ. None of these things are bad, but the net effect is that the Saracens tend to feel rudderless. They have no particularly clear plan of attack or any play style they favor. Also importantly, the Saracens lack a real killer unit. Heavy camels aren't particularly good at anything except killing other cavalry. Siege is nice to have but rarely decisive in itself. Mamelukes aren't bad, but are expensive and slow to mass. What special sauce the Saracens have is the market-driven rushdown. The market bonuses there are deceptively powerful in the hands of someone with a plan who knows exactly how to manage their resources, and when you see the Saracens in mid and low ranking games this is usually the plan. Experienced players tend to not fall for this tactic, but it's always a threat to be concerned about when the Saracens are around. This is usually paired with a reliance on Saracen archers burning down buildings faster than anyone else, a bonus that sadly isn't as good as it sounds in competitive games. At heart, the Saracens suffer from largely playing like a worse version of another civilization - in this case, the Byzantines. The Byzantines have an even broader tech tree than the Saracens, access to better units for the most part (especially in the cavalry department), and more broadly applicable bonuses in general. The draft and ban system that many tournaments use nowadays means that the Saracens have started creeping into greater use in the competitive scene when players can't get their first, second, or third choices, but they remain an underdog most of the times they show up. Given a chance, the Saracens may surprise you. Just don't count on it. 
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Apr 18, 2023 01:49
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Genghis Khan - Part 3: Into China Mission 3 Starting Text "Now all of Mongolia is in the grasp of Genghis Khan. Beyond are two vast empires: China to the east and Persia to the west. Persia is the sensible next choice of battle, since it separates us from the rich forage pastures in Europe. But first, Genghis Khan has another score to settle. After witnessing the power of our cavalry in action, the Chinese spoke of nothing but peace. They even promised support for our campaign westward. But now that we have turned away from China, they decided not to deliver the men and arms they promised Genghis. It is time for another demonstration. Persia can wait as the Horde wheels east once more, and we prepare to march into China, the largest, most advanced empire in the world."   Mongol Soldier: Great Khan, we have captured a transport ship. You start with a couple of troops, but nothing to do with them. Wandering eastwards gives you this transport ship.  Chinese Engineer: Mongols! Run for your lives! Mongol Soldier: Great Khan, with these engineers, we can establish a stronghold in China and construct powerful engines of destruction. Hopping over the river brings you to this Engineer camp, where if you go over to the Siege Workshops you gain control of a Ram, a Mangonel, and some villagers. You can destroy the Engineers if you want, and it's worth it if you want to establish your base in their former camp.  But the downside is that there's no Gold or Stone, so I just take the villagers back to the mainland and build my base over there.  The mainland Chinese factions, particularly the Tanguts, will periodically send troops out to assault your base, but they're relatively minor raids early on and easily repulsed.  At approximately 40 minutes in, Jin, the strongest and most advanced of the Chinese factions starts building a wonder. Let it stand for 300 years and you lose.  It's also at around this time that the majority of the other Chinese forces will have upgraded their troops and started sending siege at you, but by this point I have Mangudai who can just tear them to shreds.   Because Jin sets a timer for the mission, it's worth taking them out first. The southern approach to their island is fairly well guarded, but the northern approach is defenseless apart from a few scattered troops.  By this point I've boomed too hard and even Jin's fully upgraded Imperial army just doesn't have an answer to dozens of my own fully upgraded Elite Mangudai and Trebuchets. Cavaliers, Chu Ko Nus (the Chinese Archer Unique Unit, fires a bunch of arrows at once) and Monks, by the way. All of the Chinese forces have Monks, so you need to be a little bit careful not to lose troops to conversion. Jin's defeat marks the end of any remaining challenge that this mission has. The other Chinese forces will never build a navy, so you have a guaranteed fall back position and no more timers, so you literally cannot lose. Additionally, Jin has a large amount of resources in the back of the island to help fund your conquest of the rest of China. For this reason, several strategies recommend building your initial base on the Jin island and then just sending back villagers to build a second camp on the mainland for Gold and Stone, before moving onto the Jin stockpile for all your lategame resource needs.  To get into China proper, you have to break through the Great Wall, a series of Fortified Walls and Keeps three rows deep. Of course, there's nothing that stops you from just pounding away at it from a distance. (...you don't really need to break through the Great Wall. Your transport fleet can just sneak your entire army around it, but I figured that I might as well show it off since it's a nice set piece.)  Once I break through the Great Wall, I send some villagers to go and build a base to harvest and extract these mineral resources as well.   Everything from this point onwards is just a rolling doomstack winding its way across the Chinese countryside. The Tanguts aren't defeated, but their main base is crushed and can no longer send forward any more offensive waves of Rams and Scorpions.   The Hsi Hsia's Onagers and Chu Ko Nus can be pretty scary, but focus fire them down and the rest of their army is no threat.  There's 6 Cannon Bombards that you can recruit for free on the Western side of the map. Great for if you're speed running. I use them as part of a pincer movement for the final part of this mission.    The Song have a lot of Keeps and miscellaneous conventional military units. This is also where the remaining Tanguts fled. After defeating them both, I claim victory. Mission 3 Ending Text "It was... a glorious slaughter. For years, visitors to China will be astounded by the mountain of human and horse skeletons that we have erected. The Hordes have gained one huge advantage by this invasion of China: technology. We now possess the knowledge and equipment to allow us to make siege weapons. We will crack open the Persian and European castles to reach the softer parts within. Genghis is pleased with our progress and with the legacy he leaves behind. His mother once ate wild onions and rodents to keep from starving. But the children and grandchildren of Genghis will eat off plates of Persian gold." I used to have a lot of difficulty with this scenario as a kid, but now it's kind of a snoozefest. The game feels like it's trying to encourage you to quickly destroy all of the minor Chinese factions and set Jin up to be the final boss, but because the Wonder goes up relatively early, it instead incentivizes you to figure out how to defeat the most powerful player on the map first and then all that's left is a long and pointless mop up process. Extra Slides Mission 3 - Intro Slide 1 Mission 3 - Intro Slide 2 Mission 3 - Intro Slide 3 Mission 3 - Intro Slide 4 Mission 3 - Intro Slide 5 Mission 3 - End Slide 1 Mission 3 - End Slide 2 Mission 3 - End Slide 3 Mission 3 - End Slide 4 Jossar fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 02:19
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Cythereal posted:Competitive Multiplayer Overview: The Saracens
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Apr 18, 2023 02:24
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Asehujiko posted:I think these overviews would benefit from having a picture of the relevant civ's tech tree somewhere, since unit availability(and lack thereof, see new world civs and horses) is a big part of a civ's balancing too. True, but I'm doing these just as a general overview, not a strategy guide. You can look up a tech tree on a wiki if you want. Competitive Multiplayer Overview: The Franks Unique Unit: Throwing Axeman - ranged infantry unit Unique Techs: Bearded Axe: throwing axeman +1 range Chivalry: stables work 40% faster Civ Bonuses: Farm upgrades are free Castles are 25% cheaper Mounted units have +20% HP (starting in the Feudal Age) Foragers work 15% faster Knights have +2 Line of Sight Competitive Rating: High The Franks are an easy to learn civ for players who like brute force, who are so good at what they do that they remain a perennial sight in the competitive scene even if not always in the highest tier. Standard Frankish strategy is to use their food bonuses to advance quickly into the feudal age, pump out some scouts with their bonus HP to assert map control, keep going into the castle age, then drop a lot of castles to secure the map and overrun the enemy with knights. It's a more beginner-friendly version of the sort of style that the Mongols favor, and while it's not subtle or complicated, the sheer power of Frankish heavy cavalry means that they are never to be underestimated. What separates good Frankish play from great Frankish play in the high end scene is how much they use units besides heavy cavalry. The Franks have the full range of upgrades for infantry and spearmen, and in high-end play the Franks will usually make far more halberdiers than they do paladins, and also usually quite a lot of light cavalry. Sure the Franks don't get the hussar upgrade, but their light cavalry are still meatier than average and cheap bodies never go amiss. The Franks, again like the Mongols, also have a pretty good navy and thrive on both open and mixed maps. The Franks are one of the most likely culprits to get champions on the rare occasion swordsmen play a big role in a high end match, the Franks usually want to conserve gold for their paladins but a well executed tech switch into champions is one of those pivots that can win a deadlocked game. Franks are, however, a rare sight on closed maps like Arena and Fortified Clearing. They lack the final tier of archers and archer upgrades, their monks are merely average, and they lack both siege onager and siege ram. Franks excel when map control and mobility are important, but don't fare as well in knock-em-down-drag-em-out brawls.
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Apr 18, 2023 03:20
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one time while playing this map i systematically destroyed every piece of the great wall. just because. it was... not worth my time, haha
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Apr 18, 2023 05:31
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C-Euro posted:This is the only thing that I know about competitive AoE2 (oh God it's almost a decade old) When you have thumbnails of AoE videos lined up, the originals will always stand out among the DEs for their crystal clear colors. Cythereal posted:True, but I'm doing these just as a general overview, not a strategy guide. You can look up a tech tree on a wiki if you want. 1) attach a link to an info site like this one 2) Give a quick, non-exhaustive look at the civ's most notable tech tree characteristics that either are the most responsible for shaping its playstyle, or fun trivia (like "Turks are the only civ that doesn't benefit from allying with Vietnamese"). That generally means attack and armor upgrades, max. levels of advantageous unit lines, impeding ("boo, an Archer civ without Thumb Ring!") or crippling upgrade absences (the Dravidian Stable), Monk techs if they make a Monk civ play differently from other Monk civs, econ techs if their interact with the military in a way worth highlighting. I also think you can bring in more trivia or memes that have become shared community lore - some even referenced in the DE achievements, like Daut Castle or Hoang. cuc fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 06:15
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So this mission also has an achievement, for defeating the Jin before they begin building the wonder. This isn't too difficult, just boom immediately (you can fish on the right side of the map, making this very smooth); I then went crossbows (easier to mass) + siege and crippled them enough around 30 minutes that there was only cleanup left. It's also interesting that the Jin seem to have a unique setup for their wonder that isn't replicated in any other mission to my knowledge. By revealing the map at the start via cheats, you can spot a 3x3 grid of blacksmiths in the middle of the Jin base. This is where they later built their wonder, the blacksmiths are presumably there to make sure the space doesn't get blocked by anything else. Then shortly before 40 minutes, a script triggers and deletes the blacksmiths and only then will the Jin built the wonder. Cythereal posted:The Franks are an easy to learn civ for players who like brute force, who are so good at what they do that they remain a perennial sight in the competitive scene even if not always in the highest tier. What really catapulted Franks up from "good" to "really good" was the change to +20%HP for all cavalry. Originally the buff only applied to the Knight-line, but giving it to all cavalry is a tremendous boon to their early game. Their scouts are still at a disadvantage compared to civs that have Bloodlines (flat +20HP to all cav), but the Frank bonus is free and their scouts are at least competitive now. Franks should also strive for an early victory on maps with a significant water/navy component - the lack of Bracer (final damage/range upgrade for archers/ships) puts them at a severe disadvantage. cncgnxcg fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 11:44
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Asehujiko posted:I think these overviews would benefit from having a picture of the relevant civ's tech tree somewhere, since unit availability(and lack thereof, see new world civs and horses) is a big part of a civ's balancing too. This is probably better than a picture: https://aoe2techtree.net/?lng=en#Saracens tracecomplete fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 14:59
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Asehujiko posted:I think these overviews would benefit from having a picture of the relevant civ's tech tree somewhere, since unit availability(and lack thereof, see new world civs and horses) is a big part of a civ's balancing too.  
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Apr 18, 2023 15:30
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Competitive Multiplayer Overview: The Celts Unique Unit: Woad Raider - fast infantry Unique Techs: Stronghold: castles and towers fire 33% faster Furor Celtica: Siege workshop units +40% HP. Civ Bonuses: Infantry units move 15% faster starting from the Feudal Age Lumberjacks work 15% faster. Siege weapons fire 25% faster. Enemy herdable animals can be converted regardless of enemy units next to them Siege Workshops work 20% faster Competitive Rating: Average The Celts consistently hover just outside the realm of success in the current high-end multiplayer scene, offering an attractive package of bonuses that keep players trying them but they often fail to seal the deal. The name of the game for the Celts is siege weapons, particularly [siege] onagers. Mangonel/onager micro is an important skill in the competitive circuit, and the Celts have the best onagers in the game. The problem with the Celts is that siege, even the Celts' souped-up onagers, is more a nice to have bonus rather than something you can build a strategy around. They also lack bombard cannons, an important siege tool for winning wars against trebuchets (onagers lack the range). Beyond siege, the Celts have a well-rounded range of units and technologies that include a solid navy, paladins (perhaps French mercenaries or allies?), excellent infantry, and good defenses. Again, though, this all comes down to 'nice to have, now what makes the Celts win?' And that question is where the Celts tend to struggle. They're very player skill dependent in that sense, they offer no real bedrock to build a successful strategy on but offer a lot of bonuses that are helpful to a skilled player. When you see Celts succeed, it's usually on mixed land/water maps where their flexibility makes the difference, or on closed maps where they can put their deadly onagers to work. The Celts are by no means a weak civilization, they just lack that certain killer oomph to reliably place them in the top tiers.
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Apr 18, 2023 16:04
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Hell yeah, I spent so many hours pouring over this as a kid. Truly, the golden age of feelies in video game purchases. Speaking of, what were everyone's "small child who does not understand RTS" quirks with this game? For me, I would never age up as soon as I had the resources; I would wait until I had a bunch of extra food and gold, so that I could immediately research all the new techs once I reached the next age.
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Apr 18, 2023 16:04
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Smiling Knight posted:Speaking of, what were everyone's "small child who does not understand RTS" quirks with this game? Funny thing is, as the LP just showed with the Mangudai deathball, sometimes it actually works.
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Apr 18, 2023 17:10
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Smiling Knight posted:Hell yeah, I spent so many hours pouring over this as a kid. Truly, the golden age of feelies in video game purchases. I usually only attacked the enemy once I had researched almost everything and my army would just be a mix of all units available.
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Apr 18, 2023 17:33
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Cythereal posted:Celts are by no means a weak civilization, they just lack that certain killer oomph to reliably place them in the top tiers. When it comes to the Celtic tech tree, this image always springs to mind  Some of those unit upgrades look a little lackluster when you consider the supplemental techs they lose out on. Super fun civ though. Their faster infantry is absolutely insane (along with the aforementioned strong siege).
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Apr 18, 2023 17:59
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PizzaProwler posted:When it comes to the Celtic tech tree, this image always springs to mind lol i will always love aoe2 memes
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Apr 18, 2023 18:05
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YaketySass posted:I usually only attacked the enemy once I had researched almost everything and my army would just be a mix of all units available. same. i always spent way too much tjme building the perfect city before building and military units too. the idea of attacking before the imperial age was no one that registered
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Apr 18, 2023 18:06
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I mean... is that a thing you only did as a kid? I'm playing the campaigns right loving now and I do it.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:11
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Smiling Knight posted:Speaking of, what were everyone's "small child who does not understand RTS" quirks with this game? All my farms have to be arranged around my TCs in exactly the same pattern, on perfectly flat land, every time. I don't play multiplayer because I'm bad, but it sometimes majorly limits where I can put new TCs in campaign missions. Building additional TCs at all is a shamefully recent addition to my gameplay in this game too, considering how much time I've put into Starcraft 2 over the years, and knowing that zerg macro hatcheries are basically mandatory. Farms not fitting round mills in a perfect 9x9 square because mills are 2x2 (With one civ as the exception) also annoys me a lot more than it should.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:14
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Personal thought: when AoK came out, this level's Great Wall was a true test to my computer hardware, singlehandedly responsible for making the framerate barely playable. ==== Into China, Historical Outcome From a designer's vantage point, this level's intentions are clear. The real conquest of China happened in stages over decades, from before taking Khwarazm, to basically the end of Mongol expansion. For a campaign of only 6 levels, they wanted to give the player a sense of forward momentum from east to the doorstep of familiar Europe, not traveling back and forth between battlefields thousands of miles away like general Subutai. quote:"Now all of Mongolia is in the grasp of Genghis Khan. Beyond are two vast empires: China to the east and Persia to the west." Following this logic, they assumed the Uighur and Qara-Khitan factions who appeared early in Mongol history as part of "Mongolia", not quite grasping that the Mongols had already ventured into Central Asia when dealing with them, and the Persian Khwarazm was this medium-sized country that was Qara-Khitan's neighbor and on-and-off vassal, while the actual vast Persian heartland was being occupied by remnants of the former superpower Seljuks. In fact, Persian history seems to be a genuine blindspot in Ensemble's knowledge, who had to design the civ after the pre-Medieval Sasanian Empire, and wrote its civ bio in the weasel words of a rushed homework.   (As of the writing, the left map has a major inaccuracy - the Yellow River had changed course in the period, joining the sea via the Huai River on the pictured Jin-Song border - the dividing line between Northern & Southern China. But it's enough for now.) You may have put this level beside a historical map, and wondered whether it bears the slightest relation to real geography. Fret not, there is in fact a logic to it! - The level broadly projects the real world's north to its top right, south to its bottom left; - Start by looking at the historical map's northwest, for the Yellow River's unmissable "n"-shaped bend; - A short northern river separates the "Engineers" camp from the rest, and the river represents the top horizontal stroke of the "n"; - Beyond the eastern wide waters is the walled city of Jin in Northern China, and the wide waters represent the right downward stroke of the "n"; - Across the southern river lies the land strip of Song in Southern China, and the narrow river represents the "w"-shaped course of the Yangtze River; - The highland at the center seats Hsi Hsia/Western Xia in Northwestern China, and the highland represents the Loess Plateau; - West of Xi Xia, protected by a square moat, is a faction called "Tanguts" in-game. Now, a "Tanguts" faction separate from Western Xia has always confounded AoE2 players, because the latter was founded and ruled by the Tangut people. ...Unless you know that the Mongol empire referred to Tibetans as Tanguts (they were culturally and linguistically very close). Was Ensemble intentionally using "Tanguts" to represent Tibetans? Then why is Xi Xia on high ground and "Tanguts" aren't? We can't be sure about the faction name, but here's a good guess at what this moated town itself stands for - the Song city of Xiangyang, which withstood Mongol siege for 6 years in the most decisive battle in the fall of Song. This is more likely coincidental than intended, but the south river may also be seen as a synthesis of the Yangtze and the Huai, and its convergence with the Yellow River would then fit the aforementioned course change. Factional Who's Who: Song: The Song dynasty marked an important transition point in the social history of China. Continuing transformations that begun in Tang, the technology of block printing had enabled more people to be literate than ever, and combined with the Imperial Examination system for selecting government officials, they created a society in which powerful aristocrats were a thing of the past, a person's status was no longer defined by birth, and everybody in theory had a chance at upward mobility. This most prosperous, most enlightened empire of the High Medieval world only had one problem: it wasn't actually that successful at achieving many of its strategic goals, like stopping the Yellow River's rampage, keeping the court from descending into catfights between overeducated mandarins, or militarily reclaiming the northern lands. In its first period, the Northern Song, they had to settle with signing a peace treaty with Liao. After the Jin empire had replaced Liao and weren't going to keep the status quo, a further series of Ignobel-worthy deft shenanigans left the Song hanging by in the south, their northern capital Kaifeng now belonging to the Jin. Except things were pretty snazzy down there in Southern Song's "temporary capital" Lin'an near the east coast: the climate was pleasant, and global trade with the Middle East had kept the cash rolling in. Life was good, especially when a new steppe nation had risen to be your ally in finally destroying the hated Jin. Xi Xia, or Western Xia: Of these coexisting empires, the Song was the only one ruled by Han Chinese. This wasn't a unique situation; what's unique is that advancing technology had enabled the other states, including Liao and Jin, to each create their own writing systems, and develop their own written culture. Surviving print books seem to show Xi Xia being fairly successful at that. They held the strategically crucial Hexi Corridor (Hexi = West of the Yellow River('s Bend)), a northwesterly stretch of plains between mountain ranges. Song sources recorded Xi Xia innovations in military tactics and technology, including "the best" iron swords, and some sort of camel-mounted catapult. Chinggis Khan himself died during the final siege on the Xi Xia capital in 1227. The nation was wiped out by the Mongols. The Great Wall: Xi Xia and Jin built their sections of the Great Wall. The majority of the Great Wall would always be unadorned earthen walls stretching over deserts, not those postcard photos you often see. Jin: The Golden empire, the Song's nemesis who took over the entire Northern China, they were latecomers to the game of sophisticated culture. There are interesting stories to be told about Jin and their metal lifestyle, though today one of the more popular internet talking points is the "Iron Pagoda" - their super-heavy cavalry. Being conquered by Mongols wasn't the end of Jin's Jurchens. 4 centuries later, they would rule the last dynasty of China using a new name - the Manchu. Tibetans: Tibet was fractured at the time. After conquering Khwarazm, Qara-Khitan, Xi Xia and Jin, the Mongol empire had virtually encircled the Tibetan Plateau. A few incursions later, the factions of Tibet submitted. The Mongol empire appointed the prodigy scholar Phagpa to be the region's nominal governor; Phagpa would create a writing system for the Mongol language. His script ended up not seeing much use, but became the inspiration for the Korean writing system Hangul. Dali: And here, in the subtropical southwestern corner of China, neighboring Vietnam, is another empire that's not mentioned enough - Dali. They were a civilization that's culturally fairly close to Han Chinese, but also having its own writing system and Buddhist sect. The Mongols conquered Dali by going through Tibet. Unfortunately, Ming, the dynasty following the Mongols' Yuan, would do too good a job at erasing Dali culture, shrouding the civilization in more mystery than it should. ==== If you want a mildly more accurate take on the conquest of China, play AoE4's The Mongol Empire campaign, consisting of a few "snapshot" battles in China and Eastern Europe. If you want to explore the forgotten civilization of Dali, it may surprise you that there's a custom campaign for that, about Dali's struggles with its Southeast Asian neighbors. Based on a pop history article where the writer took some significant dramatic licenses, from what I heard. The author of Dali also has an as yet untranslated campaign for Yue Fei, the greatest hero of Song, who might have had a chance at taking back Northern China. cuc fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jun 8, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 21:55
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So in addition to catching up on the competitive multiplayer overviews for the civs the LP has played as so far, here's a few more detailed notes on terminology that I've been using and will continue to use: Map Control: Competitive AoE2 is fundamentally a game about finding all the resources on the map, taking control of those resources, and using them to fuel whatever means by which you intend to kill your opponent. The importance of scouting and map control varies somewhat by faction (civs with farm and forage bonuses care less, civs with hunt or mining bonuses care more), but only in a sense of 'vitally important' to 'extremely important.' Most games are fundamentally won in the dark or feudal ages based on winning small advantages that serve as a springboard for the deciding events in the castle or imperial age. Infantry: They suck. Sorry. Infantry, by which I mean the militia -> champion line, are a mainstay of the campaign but are rarely seen in high-end competitive multiplayer. Infantry cost gold, same as knights, monks, archers, and siege weapons. Gold is an important resource, often the most limited on a map. And infantry, despite an appealing mix of health and damage, are invariably the first thing cut from a composition. They're slower than knights, lack ranged attacks, are more vulnerable than siege, and are easy prey for monks. Early attacks with militia and sometimes men-at-arms see regular play as a spoiling tactic, but it is very unusual to see large numbers of infantry in competitive multiplayer unless the Malay are on the field (they have a peculiar unique technology that drastically alters how infantry work). Unfortunately, this means that civs with a focus on infantry tend to struggle and sit closer to the bottom of the competitive scene than the top. Aside from a few militia for spoiling attacks, when you do see infantry in a competitive game it's usually a tech switch in support of cavalry (to deal with halberdiers) or seeking to overwhelm a siege-focused enemy. Tech Switching: In addition to simply upgrading units directly at the production building, most unit types in AoE 2 have a host of secondary upgrades to be found in buildings like the barracks and university. Upgrading units, and researching their secondary upgrades, costs resources. A lot of resources in the case of things like gunpowder units, and the most significant resource is of course time. Accordingly, players will typically seek to fully upgrade whatever means by which they mean to win the game - usually this means knights, archers, or navy - and spend as little as possible on other unit types. Your opponent will also, if they are an experienced player, be doing this themselves, and you will both be eyeing each other to try to figure out what your opponent is likely to build and what you need to do to counter it. Both aspects are to a great degree dictated by your choice of civilization. A tech switch is, in the castle or imperial age once the game is well underway, starting production of a new unit type and researching their upgrades in a bid to change up the state of the match, either to gain a new advantage for yourself or negate an enemy's advantage. Tech switches are a substantial investment in resources, and it's easy to misplay one, investing too much in the switch rather than living with the current stalemate or disadvantage. Most tech switches also try to hide what you're doing, to keep the enemy from realizing that you're intending to change things up. Some civilizations, like the Byzantines, Chinese, and Hindustanis, are famously excellent at tech switching because they have access to such a wide variety of unit upgrades and secondary upgrades. However, tech switches can be decisive when you switch to something your civilization isn't known for, because that also means your opponent probably will not be expecting it! Many games have swung on Franks suddenly pulling out a brigade of archers, Britons switching into knights, or Mongols deploying monks en masse. Such an unexpected switch, even if not optimal for your civ, can win by the value of surprise and forcing your opponent into a tech switch of their own, or at least a major shift in tactics. Nor does the switch have to actually kill your opponent then and there, just rock them back long enough to tilt the game in your favor.
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Apr 18, 2023 22:28
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Smiling Knight posted:Hell yeah, I spent so many hours pouring over this as a kid. Truly, the golden age of feelies in video game purchases. Like a lot of others here, my fatal flaw is that I always prefer to sit back and boom before going for the big kill rather than trying to engage in raiding/map control. At least in the campaigns it's a little bit more justified as the AI has usually has a large pre-existing core of units/infrastructure that serves as the big problem, so it's more worth focusing on how to deal with that rather than their economy.
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Apr 18, 2023 22:45
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I, too, often wind up playing SimCity with my base rather than actually trying to win a game, making all sorts of pretty wall, tower, and castle defenses that don't help much after someone takes a catapult to the forest I was using as a decorative barrier.
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Apr 19, 2023 01:30
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Genghis Khan - Part 4: The Horde Rides West Mission 4 Starting Text "Sleep in the saddle. Drink the rain. Eat nothing but dried meat, dried milk, and horse blood. Such is the life of a Mongol at war. At night we are rewarded with fermented yak's milk and the promise of Persian treasures. Driven on by the words of the Great Khan we have crossed miles of the Asian continent at a full gallop. Before us lies the vast empire of Persia. The Khwarazm Shah will be given one chance to submit, and then his cities will be pulled down brick by brick. But not all of us head into Persia. Genghis has sent Subotai Ba'atur of the Reindeer People north into Russia. The Russian principalities are disorganized, and Genghis hopes that Subotai can break them one by one. Then the borders of Mongolia will cover all of Asia."   Cavalry Archer: Great Khan, our assassins are concealed in these trade carts. Once the carts are near the Persian shah, the assassins will strike! Without their leader, the Persians will fall like grass beneath our hooves! What? Look, I try to leave historical analysis to the commentators, but this is pretty much the opposite of what happened in real life. Sorta. It's complicated. But this is the AoE2 Genghis Khan campaign, so I guess we're compelled to crank the villainy dial up to 11.  You start the scenario with a northern base and a southern base. The two cannot cross paths until you defeat the main Persian base at Samarkand in the west of the map. The northern base has Subotai, one of Genghis' top generals, and a Cavalry Archer Hero. If he dies, you instantly lose the scenario.   Trade Carts: We come bearing gifts for the shah! Persian Gatekeeper: You may enter. Our city of Samarkand is just over that hill. The southern base has these Trade Carts and you want to get them moving pretty early while you set up the rest of your base. You have 13 minutes and 20 seconds to get them over to the Persian Shah, or else Khwarazm just declares war on you for failure to pay tribute. This is a Definitive Edition change - it used to be a half hour, but I guess the developers figured that if they gave you a half hour to boom uncontested without having to complete side objectives, the scenario would be too easy.   Khwarazm Shah: ...and what have the Mongols sent me? No doubt a bribe begging me not to destroy them. Assassin: Quickly, we must strike at the shah! Khwarazm Shah: What is this? Treachery! Assassin: Now the Persians will be an easier target. We die for Genghis Khan! Two Champions pop out of the Trade Carts once you reach the Shah and attack him. Fail the assassination and nothing changes from the circumstances where Khwarazm declares war on you. Kill the Shah however, and Khwarazm loses a whole bunch of potential resources and has a limited max villager capacity, delaying their initial attack and crippling their economy.   At a little before 15 minutes, the Russians will send a whole bunch of Knights, a Boyar (the Slavs Cavalry Unique Unit, which has very high melee armor and attack), Longswordsmen, and Rams to attack the northern base. This is probably the biggest sucker punch in the entirety of the scenario and I nearly lose Subotai here before using him to kite the remaining Knights and Boyar along with the Town Center.  With a castle up and a couple of troops to ward off Rams, the Russian front is effectively neutralized from this point onwards. It is of interest to note that there's a Cuman (well, Kipchak) village that you can take to the west of Subotai's initial position, but there isn't really that much of interest apart from a few extra buildings. Some people like being more forward, grabbing the village and setting up defenses there instead of in the initial northern position though.  It's at this point that Khwarazm finally comes back online and starts sending War Elephants to try and batter down my base, but I have two castles and if those weren't enough I've already started massing Mangudai.   The assault on Khwarazm begins. Also, the Russians keep sending waves of unassisted Longswordsmen to attack my northern Castle for some reason, I have no idea why, considering that they have Rams.   Take out Khwarazm's Castles, Wonder, and reduce them to a few units and they surrender. As stated before, this also gives you access to the northern part of the map.   Like last mission, Russia is meant to be the speedbump on the way to Khwarazm, so if you take out the latter first, the former folds super easily. Just take out their Castle and most of their units to win. Mission 4 Ending Text "The Persian army numbered nearly half a million men but was beaten by a Mongol army less than half that size. The governors of outlying cities were executed by pouring molten silver into their eyes and throats. The capital city of Samarkand, which was expected to withstand our siege for a year, fell in five days. Separate mountains were made of the skulls of men, women, children, horses, dogs, and cats. We roamed the streets in wonder at the opulence of the Persians, drinking at their fountains and gorging ourselves on sherbert and tropical fruit. For a man born in a tent, it seemed as if Genghis Khan had torn open the gates to Heaven itself. Russia and Mesopotamia were now ours to command. The empire now stretched over seven thousand miles from the Pacific Ocean to the Black Sea. We were about to enter Europe when tragedy struck."'' I wish they'd gone all in on the map gimmick - have the Russians be a tougher opponent and you have to defeat both them and the Persians with two entirely separate armies. But they tried to set things up for a spectacle finish where the two armies meet up in Samarkand, and as last mission proves, that doesn't really work. The initial Russian sneak attack and the map being less of a slog makes it more fun than Mission 3 though. Extra Slides Mission 4 - Intro Slide 1 Mission 4 - Intro Slide 2 Mission 4 - Intro Slide 3 Mission 4 - Intro Slide 4 Mission 4 - Intro Slide 5 Mission 4 - Intro Slide 6 Mission 4 - End Slide 1 Mission 4 - End Slide 2 Mission 4 - End Slide 3 Mission 4 - End Slide 4
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Apr 19, 2023 03:46
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Smiling Knight posted:Hell yeah, I spent so many hours pouring over this as a kid. Truly, the golden age of feelies in video game purchases. My big thing was rarely building multiples of production buildings, because I already had one, why would I need more???? So ya know, bottleneck there. Aside from that a lot of my quirks are things I still do, and since I only play single player, probably never won't do. Like my preference for booming and building, or my dislike for anything micro-heavy. As an extension of that dislike, I basically never use mangonels/onagers because of the friendly fire. Actually, the only siege I use most of the time is the trebuchet, unless the map has an age restriction or something preventing me from it.
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Apr 19, 2023 03:54
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One fun thing to do is to get a few monks out and steal any War Elephants the Persians send at you.
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Apr 19, 2023 04:01
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Personally, I've always thought it was rather generous (by Mongol standards at least) of Genghis to respond to the initial caravan incident with "Hey man, look, subordinates right? Sometimes they do crazy things. Just give me the governor and we can put this behind us." How SINCERE that offer was I suppose is up to interpretation, but it's more of an offer than was usual. E: V I always like to have a squad of most following around my main army just as healbots. Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Apr 19, 2023 |
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Apr 19, 2023 04:06
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Honestly, I'm not that much of a Monk guy, so unless the mission/Civilization is specifically geared around them, I will generally tend to stay away - same as navies, really.
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Apr 19, 2023 04:07
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Updated the Into China post with more geographical info, including a better guide on how to read AoE2's Campaign Map That Contoured the Largest Real World Area Into a Square.quote:
cuc fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Apr 24, 2023 |
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Apr 19, 2023 06:01
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Smiling Knight posted:
villagers get assigned to resources in multiples of 5, with relatively even balance ie. 10/10/10/5 for food/wood/gold/stone. (when the game had max 75 pop this actually worked not too bad) military units are created and grouped in multiples of 5 one production building per type, of course fully upgrade, even for things I wasn't planning on using fully upgrade before producing that unit never use the market or tribute without researching guilds and coinage/banking. Even then market is only used sparingly. military must be kept alive! retreat them if at low health, fully heal by monk/garrison between battles
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Apr 19, 2023 07:46
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Definitely guilty of that last one myself. Still do it whenever I get the urge to play AoE.
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Apr 19, 2023 12:00
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I'm way into upgrades myself. You mean I can spend these resources and make ALL of my units better? And they still cost the same? It'd be stupid not to! (has a dozen military units total)
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Apr 19, 2023 15:09
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The Horde Rides West: The AoE wiki has a detailed comparison of this level with history that you should read. I do have a few things to add:   The geography of this level is based on the area around Aral Sea - the world's largest salt lake that's today tragically dying due to the USSR's excessive use of its source waters to irrigate cotton farms. Two great rivers feed Aral Sea, the Syr Darya in the north and the Amu Darya in the south. The Amu is also known as the Oxus in Latin, giving the region east of it the name "Transoxiana" or land beyond the Oxus, and "Khwarazm" (or any spelling variant) refers to the part of Amu drainage directly south of Aral Sea, both regions populated by oasis cities profitting from the Silk Road trade. The name also shouldn't be confused with Khorasan, which is further south and mostly desert, or Greater Khorasan, which further covers Afghanistan. In the level map, you can see a sliver of the Caspian Sea on the left corner, and a stump of a river representing the Amu, cut short by the mountains inserted to segregate the players' two armies. The real-life arid region is also depicted as verdant and covered in forests, while our starting southern base is on brown earth - such greenery wouldn't be seen until the south bank of Caspian Sea, the food basket of Persia. They then squeezed far off Rus' onto the northwestern edge. Later, we'll discuss how these geographical deviations are culminated results of the campaign's narrative design. cuc posted:Personal thought: when AoK came out, this level's Great Wall was a true test to my computer hardware, singlehandedly responsible for making the framerate barely playable. While well-optimized (in the Ensemble days), the Age series is also known for its general audience appeal, and often ended up being played on family or school computers that are very old or cheap, or both. Do you have any story of Age games visibly exceeding your hardware capabilities? cuc fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Apr 24, 2023 |
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Apr 19, 2023 20:15
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When AOE 3 demo came out it ran badly on the flimsy PC I had back then. I still kept playing it a lot anyways.
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Apr 19, 2023 22:25
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Genghis Khan - Part 5: The Promise Mission 5 Starting Text Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition - Operation Monkey "Old wolves do not die gracefully. Warriors their entire lives, they do not know how to live when they grow old and their fangs fall out. Such it is with Mongols as well. Genghis Khan was now eighty years old. On the night when we knew that our glorious conquest was about to end, Genghis summoned his sons to his tent. They found their father shivering before a fire, delirious with pain. 'My descendants will wear gold,' he said, 'they will eat the finest meats and ride the finest horses... and forget to whom they owe it all. A deed is not glorious until it is finished.' And he refused to die until Ogedei, his third son, promised to continue the war. Ogedei emerged from the tent, carrying his father's bow, and declared: 'This storm is not yet finished. I still hear the sound of lightning, and it strikes in Poland.' The church bells rang in Europe when they saw our horde pouring out of the mountains. The armies of Bohemia and Germany hastened to Poland's defense. To them, our army might have been from the Underworld itself, still commanded by the shade of the Great Khan."  You start this mission with only slightly more forces than a Random Map game, with your goal being to build up an army that is capable of defeating the three European towns so you can capture their flags. Notably, capturing the flags does not defeat the enemies or require you to defeat them, in this case I do so. Though not without some mishaps.   Okay, a lot of mishaps. This one kind of turned into a comedy of errors.  Light Cavalry: Lord Ogedei, King Wencenslas is approaching with a huge army. Scouts have located a region in the pass ahead where we can make our stand. If we build strong fortifications, we will smash their army against our walls and towers! While kicking the Polish off my stone mine, I manage to accidentally trigger a movement-based flag. This reveals a Light Cavalry unit and starts a 50 minute countdown for the Bohemian army to attack, so I'm kind of on a timer at this point to beat the other two factions before then. You can't really avoid it for too long unless you're trying to do a really contracted boom though, so it's not that big of a deal.   The Germans start sending troops to attack via the higher path and I try to build a second castle to block their passage. Unfortunately there are two problems with this - first, there turns out to be a German Castle right there behind the fog of war and now the two of them are engaged in a castle war. Second, the Castle was built in such a spot that it blocks my passage through the path as well. I build another Castle to win the fortification slapfight and start thinking about how to deal with this.  Polish Knight: Mongols! We're doomed for certain.  The Polish have a moderate army of Infantry and Cavalry and a few Mangonels, but no real defenses except for a Castle and fall pretty quickly. Which is good, because with 20 minutes left on the timer, I get a message urging me to hurry up.  So I don't want to destroy my castle, but I don't want to deal with the headache of relocating all of my economy to follow the mines, so I just have my citizens mine what's left of the Polish Gold and Stone and send Trade Carts to the now defeated Poles' Market to make up for the lost gold income once those run out. All of my Mangudai are sent into the offending Castle on one side via garrisoning and are popped out the other, but I have to destroy and rebuild the Trebuchets since those can't be garrisoned. In retrospect, I spent more effort/resources trying to work around the Castle than the 650 wasted stone was worth, especially since I was about to attack the Germans anyway.   The Germans produce a lot of Spearman line units, but otherwise the rest of their army (Teutonic Knights/Rams/Archers) isn't that threatening. I even manage to find the time to chain a few Citizens up to the flagged area and build the recommended three Castles.  ...except they're just ever so slightly outside the lines, so my army has to sit around awkwardly for a minute while the timer finishes counting down.   The Bohemians attack with a big Imperial Age army, large enough that just trying to fight it off with Mangudai micro, while possible, is a little bit difficult. But since the Bohemian army is determined to rush your position, as long as you make sure to take out their Siege, you can turn them into mincemeat by fighting in the shadow of your defenses.   With the Bohemian army defeated, they're spent as an aggressive force. While their base is a heavily fortified position (in addition to the Walls and Towers, the Bohemians left a few Siege Onagers to defend their base, which of course smush a few of my Mangudai), you're free to destroy it at your leisure and claim the last flag for victory. Mission 5 Ending Text "European knights fight as individuals, but Mongols fight as part of a united army. Laden down with armor, the Polish and Germans could not catch our quick-footed horses. Time and again we fired flaming arrows at them, then retreated out of range. When the enemy cavalry pursued, we would lead them into an ambush. The ambush was always announced by the naqara, a huge drum carried into battle on a camel. A hundred times a hundred times has the naqara sounded on this day. We were ordered to cut off an ear for every victim. Nine sacks of ears were sent back to Ogedei Khan." This scenario was pretty fun. Not sure how much of it is because I bungled my way into really good pacing, but it felt like everything flowed naturally. I'm sure that there must be especially fiendish ways to turn the middle of the map into a deathtrap for the Bohemians, which might be necessary on higher difficulties. Extra Slides Mission 5 - Intro Slide 1 Mission 5 - Intro Slide 2 Mission 5 - Intro Slide 3 Mission 5 - Intro Slide 4 Mission 5 - Intro Slide 5 Mission 5 - Intro Slide 6 Mission 5 - Intro Slide 7 Mission 5 - Intro Slide 8 Mission 5 - End Slide 1 Mission 5 - End Slide 2 Mission 5 - End Slide 3 Mission 5 - End Slide 4 Jossar fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Apr 20, 2023 |
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Apr 20, 2023 02:35
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Jossar posted:I'm sure that there must be especially fiendish ways to turn the middle of the map into a deathtrap for the Bohemians, which might be necessary on higher difficulties. I've had a whoooole lot of fun turning the middle of the map into a giant defensive deathtrap. Walls to form a sort of maze, leaving an open gap but locating that gap at the end of a bit of a gauntlet... then place as many castles as I can fit in the area and/or afford, making sure not to finish them too quickly, so I can finish construction on them all in rapid succession. Keep a bunch of Mangudai or Light Cavalry around to charge out and deal with Siege Weapons. I enjoy my Overkill Defensive Murder Traps.
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Apr 20, 2023 03:20
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