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Yeah Saga is designed to emulate Dark Ages warbands of a chieftain, a couple retainers, a bunch of dudes with axes, and maybe some guys with bows; the ancients stuff is fun but the lists are a little silly if you think about them too hard. I do wonder how they'll handle post Marian Rome when Age of Caesar finally comes out- might be fun to have their foot troops be all hearthguard
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Apr 18, 2023 18:00
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Arquinsiel posted:This thread is making me wish I had my stack of FoW core books nearby so I could check all the rules I half-remember, but on the other hand I am also glad that I have given up on that game and don't need the hefty rulebooks anymore. Although I haven't played before the current V4, I have heard it is somewhat simplified, and certainly my rulebook is a slim A5 booklet. I'd say it isn't overly complex but there is a decent amount of depth. It's written out fairly clearly with some examples, could probably usefully be made longer with more in-depth examples of edge cases, and/or FAQs.
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Apr 18, 2023 18:26
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StashAugustine posted:Help I'm having extremely stupid decision paralysis about Saga basing. I've currently got my foot troops on 25mm rounds, heroes on 30mm, warlords on 40mm rounds, and all mounted troops/heroes/warlords on 50x25mm rectangles. Now that I'm painting a bunch of heroes at once, I'm thinking that I might want to distinguish them from the other mounted troops. I'm considering 50x25mm ovals for the heroes and 50mm rounds for the mounted warlords, but I'm waffling over actually making the decision. What I’ve learnt from my better, more experienced Saga players around here is that large circular bases for stuff on horses looks good, but is a pain in the rear end game-play wise. E: as in one friend going through the hassle of rebasing all his cavalry after a few games because wider bases on cav sucks. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 19:13
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I think the only time you want a large large base is for factions like the Britons where you want your Warlord in S of all your guys. Otherwise it is a hindrance for movement
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Apr 18, 2023 19:15
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Cessna posted:Saga: Age of Hannibal is Punic Wars, so about a century before Marius. Genghis Cohen posted:Although I haven't played before the current V4, I have heard it is somewhat simplified, and certainly my rulebook is a slim A5 booklet. I'd say it isn't overly complex but there is a decent amount of depth. It's written out fairly clearly with some examples, could probably usefully be made longer with more in-depth examples of edge cases, and/or FAQs.
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Apr 18, 2023 19:21
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lilljonas posted:What I’ve learnt from my better, more experienced Saga players around here is that large circular bases for stuff on horses looks good, but is a pain in the rear end game-play wise. Yeah this is why I'm having second thoughts, and why I'm definitely not doing it for the generic troops. Maybe just sticking to oval bases for both warlords and heroes?
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Apr 18, 2023 20:10
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Arquinsiel posted:I'd hope that's what sixth and maimed got sold, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he got something more appropriate for the Triumvirates. True - if you aren't into the era it's easy to just get something that's just "Roman" without knowing which era it is specifically intended to works for. That said, if you aren't too picky it's probably fine, especially if you're just getting started. If you're playing Punic Wars/Saga Age of Hannibal just say "these guys are Principes, those are Hastati" or whatever. It also works the other way to an extent. There are plenty of rules that are ostensibly for later periods; Too Fat Lardies' game Infamy, Infamy, for example, is about Romans vs. Barbarians, especially in Caesar's Gallic Campaigns. If you aren't too concerned about exact details you could use Punic Wars era Romans, especially the Principes, as legionaries.
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Apr 18, 2023 20:10
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StashAugustine posted:Yeah this is why I'm having second thoughts, and why I'm definitely not doing it for the generic troops. Maybe just sticking to oval bases for both warlords and heroes? I think so, the pro gamer route is probably to squeeze them in on as thin and short bases as practically possible (and allowed), the realistic option is to at least go for something rather thin rectangular (like 25x50) or a pill or oval type of base.
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Apr 18, 2023 21:28
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lenoon posted:The ubiquitous go-to is usually osprey for these things - they have a LOT of Punic war books that will give you all the info you’re looking for. Will do! I like reading about the Roman Republic so this won't be a chore.  alg posted:As mentioned, Ospreys should help. When you order your LBMS, just make sure you get the right transfers for your manufacturer. Some of them are under old manufacturers - like some Warlord stuff is in there as Saxon miniatures. The owner responds pretty quickly to questions so it is worth asking since they are across the pond and shipping takes a long time. Pro tip, thank you! I've ordered my first set of Romans from Gripping Beast themselves, but I'll double check with the owner to make sure. They're just across the channel from me so less of a lead time, but unusable transfers are still unusable. Cessna posted:There's very little real info and a lot of speculation. Archaeology for the Punic Wars is has significant gaps (i.e., we don't have a single Roman sword from the era, so we don't know for sure what kind of sword they used). There are some references to colors in primary sources (Livy mentions what color feathers they wore on their helmets) but nothing about tunics or designs on shields. We can reconstruct some things by inference and/or by learning what was used much later and projecting backwards, but again, there's nothing definitive. Good feedback, thank you! And I'll definitely check out Aventine. Arquinsiel posted:This thread is making me wish I had my stack of FoW core books nearby so I could check all the rules I half-remember, but on the other hand I am also glad that I have given up on that game and don't need the hefty rulebooks anymore. For my first set, I just ordered the "Republican Roman Army set" from the Saga distributor in the UK, Gripping Beast. Almost impossible to make out details, so no idea how period correct they are. Cessna posted:True - if you aren't into the era it's easy to just get something that's just "Roman" without knowing which era it is specifically intended to works for. At the moment, my main objective is to get an army to start playing. It's only after buying the standard set, I started thinking about the painting scheme and not screwing that up completely. Reading the replies here has given me at least some other vendors to look into for getting decent miniatures for other armies for SAGA. Thanks to everyone for replying!
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Apr 20, 2023 07:00
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sixth and maimed posted:
The good (or bad) thing of ancients is that we know little about how quite a lot of armies dressed or were equipped, or even how they fought. There's a big debate now on how even hoplites fought, and that's from one of cultures we have lots of written sources from. And with all that, what colours people wore are so far down the barrel of things we don't know that you really don't need to stress it too hard.
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Apr 20, 2023 08:11
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sixth and maimed posted:I posted this to the A/T ancient history thread first, but was referred to this thread (following this one from now on). Aside from the usual Ospreys, another good place to look would be older issues of Ancient Warfare magazine (https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/en-gb/pages/ancient-warfare) focused on the Punic Wars/mid-Republican Roman armies. They have a lot of good articles on reconstructing soldiers and often hire good artists to produce a few pieces per issue. The vast majority of info on the appearance and armament of Roman troops from this period comes from two sections of Polybios' Histories, a Greek text written in the 2nd c. BC. These are 6.22-3: quote:6.22: The youngest soldiers or velites are ordered to carry a sword, spears, and target (parma). The target is strongly made, and large enough to protect the man; being round, with a diameter of three feet. Each man also wears a headpiece without a crest (galea), which he sometimes covers with a piece of wolfs skin or something of that kind, for the sake both of protection and identification and so that the officers of his company may be able to observe whether he shows courage or the reverse on confronting dangers. The spear of the velites has a wooden haft of about two cubits, and about a finger's breadth in thickness; its head is a span long, hammered fine, and sharpened to such an extent that it becomes bent the first time it strikes, and cannot be used by the enemy to hurl back; otherwise the weapon would be available for both sides alike. 95% of the reconstructions of Punic War-era Romans you see are taken directly from these passages; much of the rest of what we know comes from other scattered literary references and archaeological evidence, but much of it is actually kind of hard to square with Polybios' description, so it usually gets ignored. There is basically zero evidence for clothing colors, btw, and little reason to think that anything approximating a uniform was worn; troops probably mostly just wore their own clothing most of the time, so knock yourself out. In terms of historical accuracy, Victrix's plastic line is pretty good, even though some of the models are uglier and chunkier than their later offerings (like the Hellenistic troops). In addition to Aventine's line, I personally really like Agema's models, which are the most historically accurate out there IMO, though some people don't like their more realistic proportions. They make an excellent and extremely cheap plastic kit that is basically a legion in a box, with 56 minis including hastati, principles, triarii, and velites. quote:It does seem a bit off to have skirmishing units of, say, Triarii and Velites in the same fight together, but, hey, it's a game. This probably happened all the time. We hear of lots of incidents of Romans being attacked while setting up camp or gathering resources and scrambling to send out whatever troops are nearby to skirmish with the enemy.
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Apr 20, 2023 12:45
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Heading to Salute 2023 this weekend - anything I should keep my eyes open for?
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Apr 20, 2023 14:35
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Southern Heel posted:Heading to Salute 2023 this weekend - anything I should keep my eyes open for? What a Cowboy should be there I think
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Apr 20, 2023 14:52
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MeinPanzer posted:This probably happened all the time. We hear of lots of incidents of Romans being attacked while setting up camp or gathering resources and scrambling to send out whatever troops are nearby to skirmish with the enemy. One thing I like about Clash of Spears is that it doesn't try to "miniaturize" a larger battle into a skirmish (i.e., try to set up a triplex acies with 30 models) like many other wargames. Instead the scenarios are the sort of thing that smaller groups of troops would do, like "stop the enemy foragers" or "pre-battle scouting."
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Apr 20, 2023 15:17
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sixth and maimed posted:For my first set, I just ordered the "Republican Roman Army set" from the Saga distributor in the UK, Gripping Beast. Almost impossible to make out details, so no idea how period correct they are. Southern Heel posted:Heading to Salute 2023 this weekend - anything I should keep my eyes open for? I intend to try see what that 6mm Orc attack on Marienburg is all about, and otherwise do some small shopping.
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Apr 20, 2023 19:35
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Goonhammer Historicals posted a really good article they call "nailing their colors to the mast" in response to an April Wargames Illustrated piece that included a quote from John Stallard about how "wokism" is killing the hobby. https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-historicals-historicals-in-modernity/ This is all stuff we've talked about here, but I really like it because it's a great affirmative argument - it calls out some of the obvious bullshit and refutes the argument behind the critique of woke, but it goes farther to make an actual positive argument about why wargaming needs to think through issues around what it means to play historically fraught eras and how to be more inclusive, and ends with commitments they're making. I don't think it's going to move any of the grogs, but I think it may get people curious about historicals but icked out by their reputation to take another look.
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Apr 21, 2023 19:25
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A brilliant article! Gonna pass it around everywhere I can.
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Apr 21, 2023 20:19
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It's probably a coincidence that the captcha I got when signing in was "Select all the pictures with stairs in them".
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Apr 21, 2023 20:33
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Here's possibly a dumb question, but are there any ruleset that cover small-scale, skirmish battles? I'm talking on the scale of Kill Team or Frostgrave/Stargrave - like 10-20 dudes on a side, and on a 3'x3' max table. That just seems to be the size game that I can get into.
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Apr 21, 2023 20:40
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Cthulu Carl posted:Here's possibly a dumb question, but are there any ruleset that cover small-scale, skirmish battles? I'm talking on the scale of Kill Team or Frostgrave/Stargrave - like 10-20 dudes on a side, and on a 3'x3' max table. Plenty of them! Which era are you looking for?
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Apr 21, 2023 20:43
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3 Action Economist posted:Plenty of them! Literally any. Like, I have Silver Bayonet and and thinking of getting The Last War so I've been looking for good Napoleonic and WWI models, but the way my idiot brain works, you could probably throw any ruleset at me and I'll be like "Oh neat! Can't wait to paint vikings/SAS/cavemen/samurai/warships!"
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Apr 21, 2023 20:49
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Well my favorite is Muskets & Tomahawks, which is (naturally) a skirmish game in the era of muskets. There are supplements for more specific eras (like the AWI). There's also Sharpe Practice for Napoleonics specifically.
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Apr 21, 2023 21:04
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I was going to suggest Saga but that's more 50 models or so
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Apr 21, 2023 21:49
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Nordic Weasel started out there - Five Men in Normady/At Kursk and so on.
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Apr 21, 2023 22:20
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The thing about skirmish gaming is the really good ones build the rules to present the combat they're representing in a really thematically interesting way, so to meaningfully pick one you kind of need to have at least some idea of what kind of toys you want to put on the table.3 Action Economist posted:A brilliant article! Gonna pass it around everywhere I can.
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Apr 21, 2023 23:13
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spectralent posted:Nordic Weasel started out there - Five Men in Normady/At Kursk and so on. I have 5 Parsecs and 5 Leagues like 5 feet away and still forgot about Nordic Weasel. 
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Apr 22, 2023 04:04
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StashAugustine posted:I was going to suggest Saga but that's more 50 models or so If you go all hearthguard you can field a force with like 25 models.
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Apr 22, 2023 04:57
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Notahippie posted:Goonhammer Historicals posted a really good article they call "nailing their colors to the mast" in response to an April Wargames Illustrated piece that included a quote from John Stallard about how "wokism" is killing the hobby. Thank you! Exactly the vibe we wanted to go for, call out the issues but present an alternative vision instead. Now we just need to deliver on that vision!
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Apr 22, 2023 07:19
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Salute 50 was fantastic - some really lovely miniatures and games on show. I took a few photos but not many, I spent most of my time bouncing around like a butterfly between exciting new armies, scales, and game systems. By the end I felt i was fairly conservative in my choices: Continuing the Pendraken theme I bought into a British Peninsular Napoleonic army - after seeing the figures on display my 2mm, while functional, just doesn't have the 'wow' factor I'm hoping for. I had considered going 28mm for Sharpe Practise but I really do want to continue to feel my way around 10mm. I also was completely overawed by the new edition of Lion Rampant so impulse bought some late Hundred Years War figures. As a nod, I got a bit of terrain for each. Wargames Illustrated latest issue has one of the Warlord 3rd Rate ships on the front so I figured it was worth a leaf through - the magazine was excellent and the ship seems nicely done, but the scale seems so bloody off on those large naval/space games I saw, so it may end up as a display piece. The LARD ZONE was there, I thought this was a nice table:  I found I have a local historical wargaming club - only a few miles away. This is a 15mm East India Company vs Sikh "Rebels" wargame they've played:  A very large scale Dambusters game:  I took some other photos but not really historically related. I enjoyed it a good deal, even if I didn't manage to connect psychically with Arquinsel.
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Apr 22, 2023 21:43
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What are the best solo friendly wargame rules out there? Things with randomized activation, no hidden info, etc.
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Apr 22, 2023 21:47
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Southern Heel posted:I took some other photos but not really historically related. I enjoyed it a good deal, even if I didn't manage to connect psychically with Arquinsel.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:49
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Count Thrashula posted:What are the best solo friendly wargame rules out there? Things with randomized activation, no hidden info, etc. Are you wanting specific genres? As mentioned earlier in the thread NordicWeasel's 5 Parsecs/Leagues/Klicks are all designed as solo games.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:54
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Oh, Battlefront  https://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=53&art_id=7696 There are probably more Panthers in this list than the Clausewitz Division had in real life.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:55
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With the addition of other means! WITH THE ADDITION OF. God, it's a small change but it's so significant and it drives me insane everyone misquotes it.
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Apr 22, 2023 23:04
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Holy poo poo that article is terrible. It's like they made a bunch of edits to improve it and just included both versions 
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Apr 22, 2023 23:23
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Southern Heel posted:A very large scale Dambusters game: ...why does he have a control yoke.
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Apr 23, 2023 03:18
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Arquinsiel posted:Holy poo poo that article is terrible. It's like they made a bunch of edits to improve it and just included both versions Not to mention that they several times talk about how elite/high quality the division was, but their record appears to be getting wrecked in every engagement and then reorganizing as an even more hosed up remnant.
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Apr 23, 2023 03:26
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Notahippie posted:Not to mention that they several times talk about how elite/high quality the division was, but their record appears to be getting wrecked in every engagement and then reorganizing as an even more hosed up remnant. That's par for the course when it comes to how Battlefront views the Wehrmacht
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Apr 23, 2023 03:57
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Comstar posted:...why does he have a control yoke. I dunno the rules, but I bet if it had mechanics for working the controls instead of just moving (Like how Gaslands hands gears), some kind of visual aid to show those setting would be good. And even if not, why NOT have a control yoke?
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Apr 23, 2023 05:08
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Endman posted:Oh, Battlefront I have just played against my friend who was using Germans out of the new Berlin book. I get that it's a game, but the overwhelming 'point' of the newer options seems to be to field a shitload of late war German tech (because it's cheaper on account of the discount given for being poorly trained and motivated). Which is kind of thematically the opposite of my understanding of the battle of Berlin, ie the Nazis were outmatched in every way, overwhelming numbers, better training, better operational planning. It conjures up the image of the victors approaching the last pockets of resistance only to have a horde of Panthers and Tigers unleashed on them! I'm not sure where BF games sit on the chud scale, but I am aware some of their stuff subscribes to the (disputed if not outright debunked) idea that the Wehrmacht were qualitatively the best army in the war one-for-one. Whereas the Russians have mass conscript attacks, kept going by their Commissars (which again has largely been debunked as not their normal practice). I guess I have heard FoW described as not a very serious historical WW2 game, but the game of the film of WW2. At the same time, I think the rules are by and large very good for recreating basic real life tactics.
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Apr 23, 2023 08:39
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