|
SIGSEGV posted:Man, imagine if the SotS people had made a second SotS, the wonders we could have seen, 
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 01:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 02:04 |
|
|
Have you played Terra Invicta? I bounced off of it at first but when I gave it another shake I fell in love, and it does a lot of things that sound like what you're looking for in 4x/grand strategy games while also doing some of the things you don't like in ways that might change your mind: There are several competing human 'empires' that all operate under the same rules, but each one of them has a totally distinct and unique goal. The Aliens are an entire asynchronous faction that each human faction interacts with in their own ways. It constantly creates the kind of political drama you're talking about, because every other faction is a faction that you simultaneously have shared goals with and that you're working against in some aspects. And it has some super rad unique features - if you play as the faction whose goal is to build a spaceship and escape with enough survivors to repopulate a new star system and you complete that goal and win, you can then stick around to lead the people still on Earth in a last-ditch resistance war against the aliens, or take over one of the other factions' goals (maybe side with the aliens and sell the rest of humanity out to them?) It forces a constant tradeoff between cooperation and competition in all kinds of ways - for example it has a pretty unique research system where all factions contribute toward global cooperative research to understand new facets of technology, then once a new tech is unlocked they work in private on turning it into buildings, upgrades, units, guns, etc. that they use in practice. So at the same time you're waging a secret war on these other factions, you're trying to maintain the peace and get them to cooperate with you on research (or take a different approach and sabotage their research so hard that you become the global technology leader and dictate what the global cooperative research projects are). I also burned out on grand strategy games around the time of Stellaris, and TI is the first one I've played since then that felt like it did something fresh, new, and intriguing. It's maybe the most glacially paced grand strategy/4x game I've ever played but it handles that glacial pacing in a way that, usually, feels good and makes sense - the way a playthrough unfolds from the early days (sending your little x-files agents around the world, winning favor in various countries, contributing to their development, political intrigue like assassinating your rivals) to space expansion where you're launching rockets and building bases all over the solar system, to all-out invasion of the earth by hostile aliens while you launch a real-science-backed fleet of custom-designed spaceships to take the battle to them is really spectacular on a scale that no other grand strategy game has managed. I haven't kept up with the community but at least last time I played (November) it felt like there was never any clear "objectively correct playstyle" and everything you did was reactionary and created unique emergent stories, while still keeping all factions operating under the exact same mechanics. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Apr 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 02:05
|
|
|
deep dish peat moss posted:Have you played Terra Invicta? Oh yeah! I haven't played it but it sounds really cool. I'm waiting for it to leave early access before I decide if it's for me though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 02:41
|
|
|
SIGSEGV posted:Man, imagine if the SotS people had made a second SotS, the wonders we could have seen, or even, what if space 4X, or really, any 4X designers had integrated lessons from SotS in their games, the future would be a brighter, kinder place. Can't even imagine what kind of stuff those guys could have come with given a second shot I hadn't heard that about the random events, guess I'm just aggro cause they always petered out like immediately after making contact with other empires
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 02:43
|
|
|
Been playing LWOTC and while it’s not a 4x the addition of the aliens having their own meta game they’re playing behind the scenes really gives you a sense of expanding and having your missions contribute to an overall plan based on territorial control that you have in 4X’s. The alien meta game is a really cool innovation for Xcomlikes and should be standard in the genre imo bc otherwise you’re just shooting down scripted ufo spawns in sort of a linear fashion Jagged alliance 2 has a pretty similar thing going with how the Alrucan army has to physically move around the map and gets its resources from its territories
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 02:58
|
|
|
A Wizard of Goatse posted:Can't even imagine what kind of stuff those guys could have come with given a second shot You can actually mod your game to make them happen consistently despite the other fights you are getting in, it's really nice that the game is almost entirely configurable like that, you can change the size of the trade cubes, you can make them all 1 ly across and not have to secure several planets just to make one trade, and it is very nice that very little is shoved away in a DLL or other poo poo. (I tell a lie, the events are all locked away in a DLL, still.) Can you imagine if they had taken a second shot at making SotS, again, after all they had learned, and with a new baseline of modern hardware? It would have been amazing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 02:58
|
|
|
The terra invicta ai needs a little more work, but it's pretty good for how complex the game is. The aliens have to balance: - building up their infrastructure in the oort cloud - sending agents (meaning, ships) to Earth to mess with you - establishing a jump off point further into the gravity well to attack human bases on Mars and especially the inner planets (Mercury is the hardest place for aliens to reach, and has abundant metals and solar power)
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 06:37
|
|
|
FrancisFukyomama posted:Jagged alliance 2 has a pretty similar thing going with how the Alrucan army has to physically move around the map and gets its resources from its territories Yeah, the first time you realized that you can ambush the reprisal raids in territory much more favorable for you when they have just marched halfway across the map and still tired instead of letting them rest up to full and fighting them out in the towns you just captured was a revelation. I want the ability to raid supply lines and to ambush and stuff. I don't care if the AI actually has to play by the same rules, so long as it looks like it to me and I can derive advantages from doing sneaky stuff.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 20:37
|
|
|
I really like when 4x give you the options to attack supply lines and engage in proper deepish espionage and make good use of who knows and doesn't know what, but it all seems rare in 4x games, and generally very poorly implemented when they exist at all. I'd really love to see a 4x game someday that pulls the espionage system from 7 Kingdoms, though. Stellaris would have been a great fit for that, and I wish they had done it! edit: ARE there any 4xs with a good espionage layer for me to try? Or heck even any grand strategy games with one, if not a proper 4x. Now I'm in the mood for nation-state espionage that probably doesn't even exist, hah GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Apr 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 21:10
|
|
|
It’s not at all a 4x, but this logistics talk has me fondly remembering Kohan and it’s expansion, and even the challenge of fighting in a jungle thanks to supply, flanking, and lines of retreat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 21:52
|
|
|
Espionage systems are almost uniformly trash. They're either basically magical and OP, not worth even looking at, or irritating timesinks. Often, they are somehow all three at once. IMO, the best espionage systems seem to be extensions of political mechanics like in Star Ruler 2 or Solium Infernum. Those games do not have spies per se but rather espionage-like actions are folded into the other game mechanics. Doing 'Espionage' in that context comes with a opportunity cost of other actions you could be doing, so it could be powerful and an orthogonal angle of attack without being its own weird seperated thing. Or for a surprise left field entry, Total War Three Kingdoms. 3K was very character-focused but you were always hiring new characters, resulting in the possibility of some of them being spies profferred up by other factions. So you always had to be careful about who you let into your circle of trust. It was a rare enough problem to not dominate the game, but it *did* happen and you always had to account for it. And you could put spies into enemy factions, which was a long game with uncertain rewards but sometimes had amazing payoff when the enemy decided to put that character in charge of an important city or army. This cool spy system in 3K contrasted with one of the factions special powers: casting OP-AF magic spells as 'espionage' every 5 turns when they were pissed at you. Which is one of the absolute worst implementations of espionage. In conclusion, Total War is a land of contrasts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 06:06
|
|
|
That's pretty much Knights of Honour.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 06:51
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:I really like when 4x give you the options to attack supply lines and engage in proper deepish espionage and make good use of who knows and doesn't know what, but it all seems rare in 4x games, and generally very poorly implemented when they exist at all. The only game I have played that had any sort of good espionage was Crusader Kings 2/3, and that is probably not the type of espionage you had in mind.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 06:58
|
|
|
LordSloth posted:It’s not at all a 4x, but this logistics talk has me fondly remembering Kohan and it’s expansion, and even the challenge of fighting in a jungle thanks to supply, flanking, and lines of retreat. If I squint, Total War carried on some of the thoughts there, but I still think Kohan's army system, army building, army cap, and morale/resupply mechanics were absolutely top notch and should have been more widely adopted Man that game was incredibly fun in 4v4 for the ~6-12 months people played it
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 09:28
|
|
|
victrix posted:If I squint, Total War carried on some of the thoughts there, but I still think Kohan's army system, army building, army cap, and morale/resupply mechanics were absolutely top notch and should have been more widely adopted https://www.youtube.com/@kohanduels This channel may be of interest. Some multiplayer Kohan still exists.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 12:07
|
|
|
I used to enjoy sending probe teams off to do things in SMAC, it was mechanically fun at the time, but also I just liked thinking about what they carried in their little black briefcases.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 21:08
|
|
|
I enjoyed rushing Hunter Seeker Algorithm to never deal with them again, since the AI loved to spend all it's time building them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 12:03
|
|
|
Yeah that's the thing in a nutshell, the AESTHETICS of probe teams in particular and a lot of 4X espionage systems are really cool and fun but the mechanics of being their target are so miserable that I never played an SMAC game where I didn't rush for Hunter Seeker so I could just ignore them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 14:25
|
|
|
I've finally managed to get that ridiculously detailed Star Trek mod working in Stellaris, and have now embarked on what is probably a big mistake. I'm enjoying it so far though, especially the alternate endings to episodes I've watched. Already I've rolled a big fat zero on the vulcan monastery episodes and lost my Enterprise with all its crew. Not a great start for star fleet!
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 17:29
|
|
|
Probe teams also provide defense against probe teams. They fight it out and even if the defensive probe team loses, the offensive probe team still spent an action so they're probably out of actions and is left standing around waiting to get shot next turn. Similar to Civ6 missionaries but not stupid.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 18:20
|
|
|
LLSix posted:Probe teams also provide defense against probe teams. They fight it out and even if the defensive probe team loses, the offensive probe team still spent an action so they're probably out of actions and is left standing around waiting to get shot next turn. Similar to Civ6 missionaries but not stupid. And IIRC they don't require minerals upkeep so you can stack a bunch of them in every base to shut down enemy probes, at least until you get HSA
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 19:53
|
|
|
Kibbles n Shits posted:And IIRC they don't require minerals upkeep Probably why the AI built a ton of them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2023 23:41
|
|
|
I was reading up on how to play Remnants of the Precursors, and stumbled upon this review and a lengthy document (written by the article author?) that picks apart the AI for MOO1. Along the way it makes a few statements about 4X's in general and 4X AI.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 04:17
|
|
|
That MOO1 Ai paper is actually quite interesting, thanks for sharing. I opened it up, thought I was just going to scan through it, but I ended up reading the whole thing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 13:39
|
|
|
Hey folks, while I realize this game isn't really 4x, does anyone know where players are discussing Wartales?
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 17:18
|
|
|
Mayveena posted:Hey folks, while I realize this game isn't really 4x, does anyone know where players are discussing Wartales? There's a thread for it: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4006006
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 17:24
|
|
|
Is there a Grand Strategy thread btw? Because I'm wondering if Victoria 3 is any good for the specific itch I'm trying to scratch (economic development strategy where you may have to bootstrap an industry, I've been trying with Imperialism but that's from 1997 so it does feel dated)
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 18:04
|
|
|
there's a victoria 3 thread and victoria 3 is great https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3968353
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2023 18:28
|
|
|
Shadow Empire for sale at indiegala for $17. Extremely tempted. Store page.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2023 07:12
|
|
|
Huh, just saw this upcoming game in my steam discovery queue Ara: History Untold https://store.steampowered.com/app/2021880/Ara_History_Untold/ The screenshots look neat, but I otherwise haven't looked into it much.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2023 05:38
|
|
|
Every few years I get nostalgiac for Master of Orion 2 and reinstall and crush the computer for a while are there any more modern spiritual successors that are good? The space theming isn't important, but I really like the ship design and the way you have to pick which techs you actually want and let the others slip away
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2023 08:16
|
|
|
Sadly I think you have to choose two of good, ship design, tech loss... assuming you ignore MOO1 I'll say Stars in Shadow has good and ship design... mostly because 90% is from MOO2. Different races have racial bonuses that mostly result in different player and enemy fleets. I really like fooling with getting the most out of every planet with diverse populations.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2023 09:16
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:Every few years I get nostalgiac for Master of Orion 2 and reinstall and crush the computer for a while Endless Legend perhaps. You can design your units, and equipment is quite impactful. While you can research all technologies in Endless Legends, the more tech you have the more expensive research becomes, and you usually want to research higher tier tech when they become available so it's not practical to research everything.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2023 09:49
|
|
|
Sword of the stars still holds up if you love the combat systems
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2023 13:10
|
|
|
thanks, I'll take a look at some of those
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2023 18:24
|
|
|
Humankind is 80% off
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2023 00:51
|
|
|
Save your money imo and wait for Age of Wonders 4 next week! Haven't been hyped for a 4xish game in a good long while.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2023 01:07
|
|
|
Anno posted:Save your money imo and wait for Age of Wonders 4 next week! Haven't been hyped for a 4xish game in a good long while. cannibal halfling horde incoming ,whoop whoop.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2023 01:55
|
|
|
Well, Endless Legend got me to one more turn all the way till 4 am so I'll call that a win Weirdly, I went the entire game with only the barest hint of interaction with the AI players. I started on an island with one AI who was content to just split the land with me and we never interacted except the one time I darted into her land for a ruins and she closed her borders lol. Legitimately went the whole game without even meeting the other four empires, and just happily managed my economy until I got a wonder victory I assume different maps or different races will produce a more typical experience but it was kind of funny
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2023 12:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 02:04 |
|
|
endless games after endless space 1 have super passive AIs on lower difficulties. they'll keep up well enough with someone brand new to the game so you can't just exterminate them easily until you figure everything out, but they also won't attack you at all unless they're specifically one of the aggro races technically this kinda fits the backstories, but it feels off
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2023 13:51
|
|
