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Tesseraction posted:Racist and competent? Which party is that because I'm just seeing racist and incompetent.
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Apr 24, 2023 12:00
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Where do you live that you get to vote for competent racists?
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Apr 24, 2023 12:02
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Communist Thoughts posted:Where do you live that you get to vote for competent racists? [extremely Home Counties voice] Scotland
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Apr 24, 2023 12:03
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Tesseraction posted:[extremely Home Counties voice] Scotland Ah, Fort William or Edinburgh. Amends ukmt.xlsx Ed: just added a follow to Plaid on my FB o I can see the sort of thing they post about & slants - don't know why I didn't do that before! Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Apr 24, 2023 |
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Apr 24, 2023 12:06
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My phone didn't go off (with the Three network under iD mobile) and I was genuinely a bit disappointed.
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Apr 24, 2023 12:40
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bessantj posted:
Really? I always thought that driving the Bang Bus sounds like an awful job. Some coked up 19 year olds are shagging away in the back of your minivan and you've got to keep your eyes on the road and hands at 10 and 2 because you don't want to get pulled over and have to explain the dubious legality of what you're doing. Plus who cleans out the van of cum? Nah, sounds like a hassle of a job.
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Apr 24, 2023 12:44
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Mine went off, and my partners about 20 minutes later. I'm pretty sure that means he's dead now.
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Apr 24, 2023 12:44
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Gonzo McFee posted:Plus who cleans out the van of cum? Nah, sounds like a hassle of a job. Personally I believe it works on the soggy biscuit principle.
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Apr 24, 2023 12:47
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It would be much safer to drive the bangtransit because then you don't have the rear view mirror.
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Apr 24, 2023 12:48
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Gonzo McFee posted:Really? I always thought that driving the Bang Bus sounds like an awful job. Some coked up 19 year olds are shagging away in the back of your minivan and you've got to keep your eyes on the road and hands at 10 and 2 because you don't want to get pulled over and have to explain the dubious legality of what you're doing. I was quite surprised reading this post - 19 year olds shagging? Then I realised I was thinking of the Vengabus. Could still be relevant of course
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Apr 24, 2023 12:55
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Vanitas est diligere quod cum omni celeritate transit.
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Apr 24, 2023 12:58
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Some of this just fascinates me as an evolution of a socio-political tool. Like there should be a term for it, like a moral Lawfare as in internal party level. It's a kinda thorny development in liberalism, which steals from the paranoia about cancel culture, but weaponises it as a tool of the right to destroy the left. So we end up in these odd places where a lifetime of real anti-racism work on the ground is no defence against a statement (misspoke, misread, misguided, or whatever), but simultaneously literally using power for practical racist acts (asylum laws etc) is just normalised as sensible and not worthy of censure. It's like the ultimate evolution of racism is saying the word, and only saying the word. 'Actually using correct pronouns as we gather around the hanging tree means I am still a good person' - kinda thinking. It is all inches off some of the rights complaints about liberalism - pc gone mad - but I do feel, but have yet to adequately articulate, there is some fundamental difference in the application : a bland man in a suit can safely doom thousands of immigrants to starvation without thought and still be a decent fellow, an activist can try to change the system but a moment of laxity in vocab or context or caveats marks them as monsters forever safe to dismiss, a media commentator can engage in dog whistles all week and have a past full of vile articles but still be righteously shocked and offended when the target is appropriate. Some of the last few years of my life have been coming to terms with the sensible logic of debate being meaningless. That claiming someone "Can't believe one thing while also believing the opposite" is just incorrect. People self evidently are capable of great hypocrisy without suffering Cognitive Dissonance. That merely pointing out the hypocrisy is not just not enough, but that it then that makes a world where even attempting to not be hypocritical is dooming oneself to failure. I do think there are some unsquared circles in my thinking here, tangles that I am still working on. But remain confident, I do not care what Dianne Abbot (or whoever comes next) said, I'm certain she is a good person, I'm certainly certain she will be a better MP than anyone who replaces her. But that is not the point, the point is to suppress the left, this a good tool for that, so it will be used. She will be replaced with a bland, sensible, administrator of racism, death, and destruction, causing untold pain while being polite in a suit, and that will be widely celebrated as a victory for morality. Then should that person ever say anything untoward,... it will quickly be swept up and forgotten, no harm done.
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Apr 24, 2023 13:02
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Spoke with my postie today. He said the CWU deal is palatable, but they're still going to lose parcels. Support for the deal on the ground sounds like it's 50-50 in our area.
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Apr 24, 2023 13:05
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The Question IRL posted:I'm now thinking of that bit in the Simpson's where Homer has written the post card to Marge while drunk. Only it says stuff about Gingers and the Irish. 
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Apr 24, 2023 13:10
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I think you are observing the intersection of institutional power and things people actually care about. It can simultaneously be the case that writing what she wrote was hosed up, and it would take a hell of a lot of a lot more explaining than she seems interested in doing before I might buy the explanation being anything other than she just actually thinks what she wrote. And also power is institutional and the UK is institutionally abhorrent in many ways and will act to perpetuate those wrongs.
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Apr 24, 2023 13:11
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I mean when you say 'the wrong draft was sent' you have backed yourself into a corner where the only way out is to produce the draft you meant to send.
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Apr 24, 2023 13:42
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OwlFancier posted:I think you are observing the intersection of institutional power and things people actually care about. What do you want as a result here? Do you believe the suspension/removal of the whip is justified? I can't see how you can read Desiderata's post, and still just nod along hmm yep let's just go along with this.
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Apr 24, 2023 14:11
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Kaveman posted:What do you want as a result here? I find her explanation uncompelling, as I said it would take a lot, in my mind, to justify how she ended up writing literally the exact opposite of what she put in her "apology" and I don't accept that excuse from her any more readily than I would accept it from anybody else. It reads like weaselly politician behaviour for when they don't feel like actually explaining why they hosed up because they know they don't have a good explanation. I fail to see why Abbot should be somehow assumed to be incapable of doing that and that there must be some sincerely good explanation that we just don't have access to. Nor am I going to suppress that thought just because we somehow have to rally around our favourite MPs. Her faction is utterly powerless in the labour party and has completely failed to provide any meaningful resistance to the policy of the leadership, so the only actual suggestion here is that she is entitled to the position as some sort of pension for past behaviour. She will get an actual pension when she leaves. I do not see why I or anybody else should be expected to defend her hosed up writing which, whether it was intended to be or not, I would struggle to call anything less than loving holocaust denial as it was written, in the vain hope of somehow keeping her in parliament for another five years. Her continued career is worth less than the self respect and reputation of the number of people who would need to go to bat for her to keep her in her position. The only thing I can see that achieving is a number of actually good people, endorsing what she wrote and having that held against them for the rest of their lives if they choose to pursue any future career in the public light. She hosed up, she hosed up badly enough that I don't think it is realistically defensible by anybody other than her, if she can somehow pull out an actual worthwhile excuse. Because I literally can not think of a good excuse. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Apr 24, 2023 |
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Apr 24, 2023 14:27
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in itself I think the letter was spectacularly missing the point more than actively problematic and as such I don’t think it’s worth removing the whip for however if Starmer doesn’t suspend her then the Tories get to spend the next approximately forever hooting about how Labour are the real party of racists despite the entire government combined not having 1% the anti-racism chops that Diane does it’s just a spectacular own goal, it’s already memory-holed the entire Raab saga
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Apr 24, 2023 14:33
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The Question IRL posted:Or that time Rossanne Barr went on a racist rant, tried to blame it on her medicine (Ambien?) and the company tweeted back that Racisim is not one of their drugs known side effects.
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Apr 24, 2023 14:40
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Bobby Deluxe posted:It makes you lose control of your internal filter and rational sense of what you shouldn't say in public, like those videos of when people come back from the dentist. Which means she was always racist, she was just holding it in and then an ambien episode meant it all came spilling out. Which still isn't really a defence. I mean she's probably deep down very hurt & very bitter that no MP (and others in positions of influence) ever stood up for her and that propelled it. All that JessFlaps et al outpouring of support for the likes of Berger and not a single word of support for Abbott despite Abbott receiving something like 50% of ALL abuse aimed at MPs combined. (And don't forget JessFlaps is PROUD of telling Abbott to F off). The horrendously racist remarks about her in the leaked report, making her cry in the parliament toilets that no one seems to give a toss about. Even now, the criticisms of what she wrote focus almost entirely on the antisemitic angle, very few are mentioning the Irish, Roma or travellers she also included because very few of her critics actually give a toss about that either. The fact that Nandy and some other Labour MPs were not taken to task over their antisemitic / anti-traveller remarks too shows the general dishonesty around the criticisms. I've seen just one commentator (from the Torygraph of all places) mention the appalling racism she has been subjected to AND included the Irish/Roma/traveller bits in their criticism. And no, I don't consider this whataboutery because she included them too in her letter. Yes, Diane Abbott has seriously hosed up here, but so have others on a similar or worse level and not a single bloody beep from Starmer and in Nasty "break him like a man" "antisemitism is punching up" Nandy's case a bloody promotion to the shadow cabinet. Indeed Christian Wakeford, who crossed the floor from the tories, has said some pretty gross things about travellers too. Who hasn't when feeling very down had a quiet cry (or loud sob) about 'nobody loves me everybody hates me, life is so unfair' dragging out all past hurts from your inner subconscious to the limelight of your conscious mind. It might not be an injustice related to racism but something else. (My private meltdowns aren't about racism but about other types of 'isms). She should have kept it private though until she sobered or sugared up. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Apr 24, 2023 |
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Apr 24, 2023 15:03
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Desiderata posted:Some of this just fascinates me as an evolution of a socio-political tool. Like there should be a term for it, like a moral Lawfare as in internal party level. It's a kinda thorny development in liberalism, which steals from the paranoia about cancel culture, but weaponises it as a tool of the right to destroy the left. So we end up in these odd places where a lifetime of real anti-racism work on the ground is no defence against a statement (misspoke, misread, misguided, or whatever), but simultaneously literally using power for practical racist acts (asylum laws etc) is just normalised as sensible and not worthy of censure. It's like the ultimate evolution of racism is saying the word, and only saying the word. 'Actually using correct pronouns as we gather around the hanging tree means I am still a good person' - kinda thinking. Like for someone like Boris Johnson, the expectations are so low that he can come out and comment on a report with things like "Black people don't experience racism in Britain any more" and people just roll their eyes because that's what you'd expect Boris Johnson to say, and when people bring up the laundry list of actual racist things that Boris Johnson has said about Black people, many of which were said while he was in or representing Britain, people just say "lol it's Boris of course he says things like that, stop being terminally offended about everything." Anti-racist activists have to permanently be on their A Game though, even when writing a stupid comment under a stupid op-ed in a stupid newspaper. If we did truly live in a post-racial society (which we don't) then either Boris saying "Black people don't experience racism" and Diane saying "white people don't experience racism" would be faced with immediate suspension from their parties, or everyone would just say "lol it's Diane of course she'd say that about the whites" and that'd be it. That this did not happen is illustrative of the exact problem.
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Apr 24, 2023 15:08
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OwlFancier posted:Words No one is suggesting you defend the article. But the person deserves support, if not for her sake but in a coldhearted manner just tactically it is ridiculous to let go of one of the strongest MPs in the Labour left. This constant legitimising of the right's duplicitous outrage in order to achieve this impossible goal of a perfect left is how we got where we are now. Also comparing it to holocaust denial ridiculous, do you honestly believe she's a holocaust denialer?
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Apr 24, 2023 15:17
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In a bizzaro universe there is a Spectator headline "we must challenge the culture of low expectations for the behaviour of 58 year old white men".
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Apr 24, 2023 15:24
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I said that's what it is as written. https://twitter.com/ProfDaveAndress/status/1650034062608814089 Whether she meant that or thinks that, I find it very difficult to interpret what she wrote as anything other than saying that GRT people and Jews have not experinced racism historically. Which when both groups were in very recent history subjected to industrialized murder based on their racialized status is loving insane. And when her loving party is happily campaigning on criminalizing and otherwise loving up the lives of GRT people it is doubly galling. If you can't accidentally avoid writing that in a national newspaper then I don't think anything I could say or do is capable of helping you. This is not duplicitous outrage, I would very happily see every other shithouse labour arsehole who writes hosed up poo poo in the papers through either stupidity or malice, ejected from their position and ideally society as a whole. I'm not going to 180 and pretend to not feel that way based on who's doing it.
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Apr 24, 2023 15:25
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OwlFancier posted:This is not duplicitous outrage, It might not be duplicitous from your end but the media have been climbing over themselves to get the guy who took 20 years for bullying a footballer with blackface on national TV and has said some remarkable things, casually, about GRT to talk about how racist Diane Abbott must be.
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Apr 24, 2023 15:43
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But the position being argued is that people should not be actually loving annoyed about it because the media are annoyed about it. What do you expect people with a sincere objection to do? How do you expect them to "support" Abbot in this? Why should they stick their necks out for her gently caress up? How would they even go about doing that without diminishing their own case later on against the many other dickheads in british media and politics? I have no justification I can make, I have no argument as to why she should retain her position.
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Apr 24, 2023 15:47
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I don't think anyone is asking you to. What should happen is that all the other bigoted cunts should be held to the same standard. The outrage is because the rules about what is acceptable are only being applied to a minority, and at that one who has been on there receiving end of the absolute worst that they have to offer.
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Apr 24, 2023 15:57
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the fact that all the many, many racists in the Tory party should also be suspended (by their necks in Minecraft) doesn’t make what Abbott wrote more acceptable
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Apr 24, 2023 16:17
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Sure, but choosing the one Black woman out of all of those to make an example of using the most immediate and harshest discipline, just to make the party poll better with the thumb headed racist demographic, is in itself an example of racism in skewed consequences.
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Apr 24, 2023 16:22
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Guavanaut posted:Sure, but choosing the one Black woman out of all of those to make an example of using the most immediate and harshest discipline, just to make the party poll better with the thumb headed racist demographic, is in itself an example of racism in skewed consequences. who’s doing the “choosing” here?
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Apr 24, 2023 16:39
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The people who suspended her immediately while selectively ignoring all the others.
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Apr 24, 2023 16:40
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Guavanaut posted:The people who suspended her immediately while selectively ignoring all the others. the other……Tory MPs?
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Apr 24, 2023 16:41
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No, the other racist Labour MPs.
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Apr 24, 2023 16:43
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Guavanaut posted:No, the other racist Labour MPs. did they also write letters to the Guardian saying that Jews couldn’t experience racism?
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Apr 24, 2023 16:54
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OwlFancier posted:I said that's what it is as written. I don't think what she's saying is right, but I think what she's trying to say, unsuccessfully, is that the racism of the Southern US was based on the colour of someone's skin and that people who are 'white seeming' can slide under the radar. It's not that they are being discriminated against, it's that they have the opportunity to hide who they are (and thus the discrimination) but people who have a darker complexion don't have that opportunity. Again, I don't think she's right or that she made her point well, but I don't think she's saying that Jews and GRT people didn't face discrimination but they had an ability that darker skinned people didn't have.
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Apr 24, 2023 16:55
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Julio Cruz posted:did they also write letters to the Guardian saying that Jews couldn’t experience racism? Those are all worse than writing a bad comment below an bad op-ed in a bad paper.
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Apr 24, 2023 16:58
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:I mean she's probably deep down very hurt & very bitter that no MP (and others in positions of influence) ever stood up for her and that propelled it. A medical lapse wouldn't suddenly make her believe that only black racism is real racism and for everyone else it's just sparkling prejudice, but it might stop her from holding that opinion back. Those biases are bad (understandable maybe), but the point is more that she openly said them out loud. It's just a weird stance to take, given the amount of evidence to the contrary for her arguments - it kind of feels like the 2nd paragraph should be followed by "...I assume, I haven't really looked into it." https://twitter.com/ProfDaveAndress/status/1650034062608814089 And it's also a weird response to that article to try and jump in and make that argument, it's almost exactly what we criticised the bad eel for when he jumped in on an article about GRT holocaust deaths accusing them of excluding jewish deaths. The point is that she has a position of tremendous responsibility: Not just as an elected representative to her community, but as one of the last left wing MPs Starmer hasn't been able to purge; to just casually drop a racism comparison involving Jewish people is astonishingly tone deaf and careless, no matter how many drafts it was supposed to have. She's also paid and given benefits and access that most of us could only dream of by holding that position. Of course she should be held to a higher standard, especially when it comes to letters written to national newspapers in her capacity as an MP.
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Apr 24, 2023 17:06
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The Abbot thing seems like something any right wing Labour MP might post to Twitter on a Friday after two glasses of wine and get completely ignored. I'd also prefer that Labour MPs were pure beings of correct thought, but have you seen the rest of them? I have a pretty good idea of who purging Abbot from the party helps and it isn't the left or potential victims of racism.
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Apr 24, 2023 17:20
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verydarkblue posted:I don't think what she's saying is right, but I think what she's trying to say, unsuccessfully, is that the racism of the Southern US was based on the colour of someone's skin and that people who are 'white seeming' can slide under the radar. It's not that they are being discriminated against, it's that they have the opportunity to hide who they are (and thus the discrimination) but people who have a darker complexion don't have that opportunity. Again, I don't think she's right or that she made her point well, but I don't think she's saying that Jews and GRT people didn't face discrimination but they had an ability that darker skinned people didn't have. But that's a really weird argument to make in the context of responding to Tomiwa Owolade's book on racism in the UK, which is literally called 'This is not America' and who's central premise is a warning against uncritically importing narratives from the US and assuming that they apply to our culture. That's why I lean towards the 'Parliamentary staffer who's work wasn't checked' drafting theory - Diane Abbott is someone would make an argument about the experience of black people in the UK. A very online staffer fresh out of Uni is the kind of person who would make that mistake.
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Apr 24, 2023 17:26
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