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"Wizards hire Pinkertons to harass a guy who got a shipment of magic cards" is wild as hell for 2023, but a hell of a hook for a game taking place in 1923.
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Apr 25, 2023 05:10
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dwarf74 posted:Goddamn. Lynx Winters posted:"Wizards hire Pinkertons to harass a guy who got a shipment of magic cards" is wild as hell for 2023, but a hell of a hook for a game taking place in 1923. This, but also  And also, Liquid Communism posted:Again, if he bought the cards and the seller hosed up and sent them early, he would be entirely in his rights to tell WotC to go pound sand, and have the cops come around with a warrant if they think it was stolen property.
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Apr 25, 2023 06:45
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I for one would simply not like to invite the opportunity to get shot by the police over some loving magic cards lol. maybe it's just me lol.
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Apr 25, 2023 10:49
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Dexo posted:I for one would simply not like to invite the opportunity to get shot by the police over some loving magic cards lol. I sincerely wonder whether you'd be better off in the hands of unaccountable capitalist thugs with a history of violence wrapped in a public perception of self-important deification or the Pinkertons.
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Apr 25, 2023 11:29
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Magnetic North posted:I sincerely wonder whether you'd be better off in the hands of unaccountable capitalist thugs with a history of violence wrapped in a public perception of self-important deification or the Pinkertons. Depends on how dark your skin is.
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Apr 25, 2023 11:45
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LatwPIAT posted:If “some guy” is selling 22 boxes of unreleased MTG when not even into MTG, they’re probably some kind of retailer. WotC I believe seldom send out their MTG boxes to retailers more than about a week in advance of release. This is about three weeks in advance of release - meaning that it's not normal some case of the retailer breaking the street date. This is "someone stole a case of unreleased MTG from the printer or the warehouse". Especially if it's from "a buddy". We're at the very least close to federal crime territory here by the Youtuber. (Receipt of Stolen Goods has a $5000 minimum - if a box of MTG cards has a value of $250 then we are; he received stolen goods, definitely inter-state commerce involved, and the knowingly or willfully question is wide open). I've two questions here because not being an American I genuinely do not know the cultural context. The first is are the Pinkertons genuinely considered worse than involving the American police? I mean I know which one I'd be more afraid of. The second is if we assume that what WotC is after was the root thief and they needed outside help to find them who should they have hired.
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Apr 25, 2023 11:55
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The "Pinkertons" are essentially just corpo jackboots as a part of the US part of Securitas AB security. I'd almost assuredly rather deal with them, as they are a touch more accountable for their actions when like showing up at your house and asking for something/information. They have slightly less latitude to escalate things to shots fired on someone else's property. It's all marginal though. They both loving suck.
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Apr 25, 2023 12:05
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It's not that the Pinkerton are worse than normal police; it's that they have a history as a private law enforcement organization particularly against unions. The whole incident would be only slightly less scandalized if it wasn't one of the oldest brand name private security groups involved.
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Apr 25, 2023 12:11
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neonchameleon posted:I've two questions here because not being an American I genuinely do not know the cultural context. The first is are the Pinkertons genuinely considered worse than involving the American police? The Pinkertons date back to the 19th century as the union-busting private security force in the United States. The reaction is so visceral because of their infamy - it's not just any firm, but specifically a name that anyone with a mild familiarity with American labor or police history would recognize. It's "bad enough" that WOTC took this step, but for them to also utilize such an outstandingly unsavory company heightens the distastefulness of the incident.
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Apr 25, 2023 12:16
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yeah it's just great for headlines, because lol literally sending in the Pinkertons, but yeah plenty of companies do the exact same thing the pinkertons do nowadays. I'm legitimately shocked they didn't bother to change their name when they merged with Securitas, but also I guess it's not the worst reputation to have if your company's job is breaking unions and dealing with corporate risk and security.
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Apr 25, 2023 12:19
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Dexo posted:yeah it's just great for headlines, because lol literally sending in the Pinkertons, but yeah plenty of companies do the exact same thing the pinkertons do nowadays. Iirc, it was an acquisition, not a merger but also yeah, it's in their interest to retain the name and branding as a corporate security firm. Hasbro likely has Securitas services in retainer and the brand Securitas probably like to use for their rent-a-cops is Pinkerton
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Apr 25, 2023 13:03
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gradenko_2000 posted:The Pinkertons date back to the 19th century as the union-busting private security force in the United States. The reaction is so visceral because of their infamy - it's not just any firm, but specifically a name that anyone with a mild familiarity with American labor or police history would recognize. It's "bad enough" that WOTC took this step, but for them to also utilize such an outstandingly unsavory company heightens the distastefulness of the incident. ...and to clarify, "union busting" meant having their men infiltrate the union and find out who the leaders were, then sending a gang of thugs to their houses and beating them so badly they could never work again. They're almost exactly like the 'security firms' in the cyberpunk genre who are private armies for corporations.
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Apr 25, 2023 14:10
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I used to flip Harry Potter books/Pokemon cards/MTG cards before they were released, and it's literally this easy: Work at Walmart/Big Box Store/Wherever Ask the sixty-year old night shift manager who has never heard of anything vaguely related to nerd culture to buy something. Buy new [nerd item] a few weeks/days early. Sell [item] to nerds but keep it relatively quiet. So, assuming the guy is telling the truth (which I am), it's something like that, only without doing it deliberately. Guy asks the store for MTG boxes, someone who gives zero fucks about MTG hands them to him, he cashes out and goes home, finds he has the wrong boxes. We might get more information but it's actually super easy to get unreleased stuff.
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Apr 25, 2023 14:49
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Stuff goes on shelves early all the time, but that's close to release when they're under a counter or in a back room. It sounds like the new set shouldn't have be at any stores yet, which also explains why WotC is treating this as a crime. That third party he got them from is hosed if there's no legitimate channel for him to have had them. It's no longer about street date or spoilers - this is WotC addressing shrinkage. Which is the kind of thing you bring in "professionals" to investigate. They've probably been watching for stolen cards to surface, so selling them to a streamer would be about the dumbest thing you could do.
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Apr 25, 2023 15:10
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Gynovore posted:...and to clarify, "union busting" meant having their men infiltrate the union and find out who the leaders were, then sending a gang of thugs to their houses and beating them so badly they could never work again. They're almost exactly like the 'security firms' in the cyberpunk genre who are private armies for corporations. I mean they still do Union busting, but the more legal, acceptable and "friendly" way of infiltrating meetings and ratting out leaders and getting them fired and general concern trolling. Far less beating people with doorknobs nowadays.
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Apr 25, 2023 15:21
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The Pinkertons thing is bad because when people complain about new editions of D&D in future and act like they can no longer play their preferred version, we can't make the usual response of "Hey, Wizards won't send the Game Police around your house."
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Apr 25, 2023 16:09
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It is extremely bad optics. I agree that a possible workflow was "wizards hires Securitas to investigate and pursue cases of internal theft of product" --> Pinkertons arrive at a youtuber's door, without an intermediate step of "anyone in management at Wizards notices this specific case has led to an investigation of a youtuber, and decides maybe the right next step is to just try asking them where they got the cards first" which would have been both reasonable (this person isn't selling stolen product on the black market, he's making youtubes in public, there's a good chance he cooperates and even helps investigate) and prevent this extremely bad looking incident from winding up in the news. But they didn't do that, and now they have sent pinkertons to a youtuber's house, and yes cops were another alternative, but I am gonna push back again on the framing that those were the only two "reasonable" options for Wizards of the Coast to deal with a youtuber making public youtubes showing off products that aren't even at retailers yet. I am eager to see what Wizards has to say for itself.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:16
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Gynovore posted:...and to clarify, "union busting" meant having their men infiltrate the union and find out who the leaders were, then sending a gang of thugs to their houses and beating them so badly they could never work again. They're almost exactly like the 'security firms' in the cyberpunk genre who are private armies for corporations. Ah right. My main context for them has been footnotes on the history of the American Civil War of Lincoln using them. And yeeeaaaahhhh.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:22
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Leperflesh posted:It is extremely bad optics. I agree that a possible workflow was "wizards hires Securitas to investigate and pursue cases of internal theft of product" --> Pinkertons arrive at a youtuber's door Also, "oh we didn't know they were going to do that, things got out of hand" is exactly the sort of plausible deniability one would hire Pinkertons for. If that was the case there's a way out of this mess other than hoping it all blows over (which, given my cynicism for the public and the lack of any broken bones, it probably will), but it probably takes too much transparency for a PR person to allow against instincts.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:25
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Leperflesh posted:It is extremely bad optics. I agree that a possible workflow was "wizards hires Securitas to investigate and pursue cases of internal theft of product" --> Pinkertons arrive at a youtuber's door, without an intermediate step of "anyone in management at Wizards notices this specific case has led to an investigation of a youtuber, and decides maybe the right next step is to just try asking them where they got the cards first" which would have been both reasonable (this person isn't selling stolen product on the black market, he's making youtubes in public, there's a good chance he cooperates and even helps investigate) and prevent this extremely bad looking incident from winding up in the news. Lol. Also lmao. Wizards knew exactly what they were doing, that this won't even scratch their bottom line, that they could do it with impunity, and that it will have a chilling effect. There is a near 0% chance they will publicly address this, and if thry do, it will be MaRo making another "Law and Order" article like he did gor RancoredElf saying "It's legal and we won't stop". Your post is so completely out if touch with reality and what's posted in this thread that it's laughable.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:30
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They will probably say nothing, because this is SOP to them. If a major leak happens before they send to retailers at all this almost assuredly means theft or some other breakdown of their system that they probably want to make sure can't happen again. So they send their jackboots to ask questions and maybe get answers.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:31
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It's silly to consider what kinder, gentler alternatives available to WotC. They didn't (and would never) choose them. No corporation would because they have stronger and more efficient tools at their disposal. Again, nobody's condoning it or saying it's normal and cool. It's normal and bad because that's America. If we ever hear anything else about it, it'll be that "private detectives" found out who stole boxes off a truck or warehouse, and that guy's facing Consequences. And the fans will go back to consumption as usual because 1) there was a criminal, and 2) he's being punished. That's also normal and bad.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:56
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Yet another point: the operatives arrived at his door two days after the video was posted. The legal way to get someone's address would be to send a subpoena to YouTube to obtain his IP address, then another subpoena yo his ISP to get his physical address. Both of these take a few days. For them to act so quickly means that Securitas almost certainly got his info in ways that aren't kosher.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:57
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That or he's put sufficient info out for a detective agency to dox him.
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Apr 25, 2023 18:03
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TG as an Industry: Talking about Pinkertons as much as Weezer Fans
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Apr 25, 2023 18:08
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PharmerBoy posted:That or he's put sufficient info out for a detective agency to dox him. It's this. He has his city/state/zip in his public youtube info. They probably just matched it up internally to some customer info (arena/modo account, secret lair orders, etc.).
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Apr 25, 2023 18:09
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Toshimo posted:It's this. He has his city/state/zip in his public youtube info. They probably just matched it up internally to some customer info (arena/modo account, secret lair orders, etc.). If I have a full name and a city, there's a multitude of information that I can find out using a public information subscription from Lexis. I can probably get an address if the person is in a phone book. You don't have to assume that the Pinkertons used any treyf fashion to get this information.
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Apr 25, 2023 18:14
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WotC Slack discussion*: SRDSlayer: This motherfucking Youtuber ripped us off and is now spoiling the special release for us! How do we stop him as quickly as possible? Call the cops? SageAdvisor: We could do good cop/bad cop. Send someone to threaten him and grab the cards and then have someone here reassure him and comp him some boxes that haven't sold. WeedWizard: ACAB ZakDidNothingWrong: Why not send the Pinkertons instead? SRDSlayer: I like it! Then comp him cards and he'll be happy and the problem will go away. ComicBookPaladin: Oh, sure, no way the guy passes on the story on his YouTube channel SRDSlayer: Was that sarcasm? I told you to stop with the sarcasm! ComicBookPaladin: And if I don't, you send the Pinkertons after me SRDSlayer: That's better. Now we execute my brilliant plan to save the launch! *It is possible I have never used Slack. EDIT: ComicBookPaladin: MtG Pinkerton expansion when? Narsham fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 18:19
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Here is appearntly what happened according to the Youtuber https://www.polygon.com/23695923/mtg-aftermath-pinkerton-raid-leaked-cards
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Apr 25, 2023 18:53
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Leperflesh posted:It is extremely bad optics. I agree that a possible workflow was "wizards hires Securitas to investigate and pursue cases of internal theft of product" --> Pinkertons arrive at a youtuber's door, without an intermediate step of "anyone in management at Wizards notices this specific case has led to an investigation of a youtuber, and decides maybe the right next step is to just try asking them where they got the cards first" which would have been both reasonable (this person isn't selling stolen product on the black market, he's making youtubes in public, there's a good chance he cooperates and even helps investigate) and prevent this extremely bad looking incident from winding up in the news. Ok you’re close. Having been the contracting party on something similar Wizards end was likely something like this: They have Securitas on retainer, however they KNOW Pinkertons is the the door knocker part of the company. They KNOW Pinkerton agents are likely ex-cops making their paydays after retirement/ pension vesting. They also know that the guys are going to be “polite” and “above board” when dealing with the dude. Wizards / Hasbro doesn’t really care about the YouTuber because in the end they’re the small fry. They’re far more interested in how the person got the product. This early means there is a breakdown between the printer and the distributor both of which have a ton of contractual obligations in place to protect that product with matching penalties for any breach of that obligation. They also know that Wizards will need some serious proof in order to enforce those penalties. That’s what Pinkerton provides - an airtight timeline of their investigation and report that can be waived in front of the company that lost the product. That’s why they wanted the serial numbers. Some company is about to be paying a serious fine / get a reduced payment due to this. So why not the cops? They’re not accountable to Wizards and they do not have a sense of urgency that this kind of breach requires. They also really don’t give a poo poo about stolen stuff. You get a police report and a reference number and that’s it. Doesn’t matter if it’s BFE or major metro they almost to a fault just don’t care. I highly doubt anyone involved with this honestly gives a poo poo about the optics. They’re far more concerned with making sure they can nail a company and / or make an insurance claim. Both of which need the level of reporting that Pinkerton provides. Source: a previous company was a game dev and my boss hired Pinkerton to recover stolen dev kits so that Sony / Microsoft didn’t ream is a new rear end in a top hat financially and cut us out of the next generation of consoles. Was also involved in steps necessary to secure loads of packaged games to be delivered to major retailers. Additionally I was the joker who had to call cops and get status updates on list / stolen laptops and phones for a different company. Cops suck to deal with at all levels, and stolen poo poo is bottom of the pile stuff you “work” on while taking a poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2023 18:54
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Thanks Nystral, it's nice to get some info that's more than just random speculation. The storyline makes sense, and the article MonsterEnvy linked to fits it. I don't particularly feel like normalizing the use of private security, particularly the Pinkertons, but "this is normal SOP" is pretty clear.
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Apr 25, 2023 19:02
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The solution is clear, we need to dissolve the united states and every magic card ever printed to prevent this happening again
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Apr 25, 2023 19:11
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I'm not sure dissolving the US would get rid of a corporate security firm but I am not specifically against your plan either.
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Apr 25, 2023 19:14
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disposablewords posted:I'm not sure dissolving the US would get rid of a corporate security firm but I am not specifically against your plan either. Trust me
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Apr 25, 2023 19:15
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gonna be wild when the Pinkertons take Michigan and upper Indiana, and start their march towards chicago.
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Apr 25, 2023 19:16
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Dexo posted:gonna be wild when the Pinkertons take Michigan and upper Indiana, and start their march towards chicago. They are already planning for the post-apocalypse. Climate Chaos Is Coming — and the Pinkertons Are Ready posted:Whatever the exact costs of climate change, it is Pinkerton's job to read between the numbers looking for the potential for violence. If you're suffering only one hurricane every 20 years or so, shelling out $1 million to Pinkerton isn't such a big deal, Paz Larach explained; you bake it into your risk. "But if there's a disaster every year, which is happening more and more, it makes more sense to have dedicated staff on standby." A Pinkerton on standby doesn't mean protection for just your insurable risks but also for the uninsurable risks — business interruptions, theft of trade secrets, pandemics. And with the environment increasingly weaponized against the poor, to borrow Wallace-Wells's phrase, the sectors that rely on cheap labor will face more unrest among workers; the state will struggle to keep up with crime; and in the aftermath of storms, with landslides blocking first responders, regional offices will be cut off.
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Apr 25, 2023 20:31
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SimonChris posted:They are already planning for the post-apocalypse. lmao this loving line, god gently caress these assholes.
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Apr 25, 2023 20:38
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Dexo posted:lmao this loving line, god gently caress these assholes. Oh don’t mistake things. The Pinkerton folk I dealt with knew the reputation and their pitch leaned into that history. They’re assholes through and through and the people hiring them see it as THE key reason to hire a Pinkerton vs someone else.
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Apr 25, 2023 21:04
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Warthur posted:The Pinkertons thing is bad because when people complain about new editions of D&D in future and act like they can no longer play their preferred version, we can't make the usual response of "Hey, Wizards won't send the Game Police around your house." 
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Apr 25, 2023 21:18
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getting swatted by mike mearls' private security force after i install the 4e character creator on my players' laptops.
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Apr 25, 2023 21:26
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