Ukraine War: Berth El Buk

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(Thread IKs: weg, Toxic Mental)

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Latest casualty counts, whew that's two days in a row of 14 artillery kills. Counter-battery fire indeed

E: What a snipe. Slava ukraini!

Here's a good article: "I turned 16 in a bomb shelter" - an excellent story of Ukrainian teens in wartime

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/article/she-grew-up-in-one-day-three-ukrainian-teens-on-coming-of-age-in-wartime/ij7xybzeb

Dateline posted:

In this week's episode Dateline meets the teenagers coming of age in Ukraine. Watch Teens, Love and War, Tuesday 25 April, 9.30pm on SBS or stream via SBS On Demand.

Ukraine�s second-largest city of Kharkiv was among the first targets when Russia invaded in February 2022. Before the war, it was a major educational and cultural hub.

In the past year, thousands of teenagers had their lives upended and dreams shattered by the war. Some have picked up arms. Others are trying to keep living and struggle with mental health issues.

These are some of their stories.
Alevtina, 18: �I lost my mum in the first year of Russia�s invasion�
A quiet dinner at home with your dad is far from the dream 18th birthday party for most teenagers. But for Alevtina, it was all she wanted.

It�s been less than a year since her mother, Olena, was killed on the front steps of their apartment building.

�A shell flew into the house, and she was killed by a fragment of the building that hit her head,� Alevtina recalls.

�We believed that an ambulance would come, and it would be possible to save her somehow. It was probably an instant death. I hope it wasn't painful for her.�

�It was literally a moment. If only she had got inside, she would have stayed alive.�

Alevtina�s father, Serhii, is a tough man, fiercely protective of his daughter. He breaks down when talking about the loss of his wife. He sees a lot of her in Alevtina. The two have been each other�s support through the tragedy.

�If it wasn't for Alevtina, I don't know how I would keep on living. That�s how we survived this great grief, because we are together.�

Serhii says the war and the loss forced adulthood upon his daughter.

�She grew up in one day. She was a child on March 15th and on March 16th, after lunch, she had already become an adult. She lives, she understands what life is and what death is.�

A fine arts student, Alevtina has found comfort in drawing.

�It distracts me from my obsessive thoughts. I�m doing what I like [and] creating something beautiful.�

�One needs to enjoy what they have, rather than have dreams and regrets about what they don�t have or have lost.�
Artem, 19: Fighting on the Ukrainian frontline
Artem, 19, is home on a short reprieve from serving in the Ukrainian army. Since joining the military, he has only been able to see his family only once or twice a month.

When Russia invaded, he says he immediately signed up to fight for Ukraine.

�I was a child before, the war has totally changed me,� he told Dateline. �Some people might say it has stuffed me up, but I would say it has changed me.�

His mum, Anastasiya, said Artem had left for the frontline without asking her permission, taking up arms against his former country. The family are still Russian citizens even though they moved to Ukraine in 2007.

�I was very concerned for him. The only thing left for me was to pray,� she said. �Now, after nearly one year of service, it feels like he is older than my other children.�

Artem jokes that he is �a good Russian� because he�s alive and fighting for Ukraine, a twist on the Ukrainian saying that �a good Russian is a dead Russian�.

Walking through the centre of Kharkiv, Artem noticed a group of teenagers listening to music and drinking beers.

�I thought, �Sh*t, what kids!� but then, a second later, it struck me I was just like them, the same age as them.�

When he gets time off from fighting, Artem spends it with his girlfriend, Yaryna.

�She has said several times that I'm a hero, to which I�ve replied, �Not really��.

�But she says that for her, I�m a hero.�

Artem and Yaryna are both young. Ask about marriage and they laugh it off. But it could be love that brings this young soldier home.

�I am fighting not only for the people of Ukraine, I am fighting for my family, for Yaryna. I know that when I return home, someone will be waiting for me.�
Oleksii, 16: Living in the theatre of war
Oleksii�s parents are actors. His dream is to perform on the stage like them.'

He loves the theatre, but never imagined he would live in one. When the first missiles hit Kharkiv, Oleksii�s family fled their apartment and sheltered in the basement of a small theatre run by his parents. They have lived there ever since, alongside other families.

�I�ve been here from day one of the war, and I won�t be able to explain how it feels, because you have to live through it,� he told Dateline.

Oleksii recently turned 16. There are still �Happy Birthday� decorations featuring Avengers superheroes hanging in the kitchen. It�s a reminder that he is still a kid.

Kharkiv is no longer under constant attack, but air raid sirens still ring out every few days. Even now, it�s rare for Oleksii to venture outside of the theatre for more than a few minutes. He feels safe in the corridors of the theatre. As life slowly returns to a semblance of normalcy in Kharkiv, the theatre is reopening with a new, war-themed play. But Oleksii isn�t excited.

�The fact that the theatre is reopening tends to scare me on occasion. Because... what if these scum of the earth find out about it and decide to send a missile here?�

UNICEF estimates that 1.5 million Ukrainian children are at risk of developing post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety.

The war has had a strong impact on Oleksii�s mental health. As a coping mechanism, he always carries a rainbow slinky, feeling the need to clasp something in his hands. He is scared there could be a new Russian advance on Kharkiv.

�I do not get used to it. Recently there was a hit near my school, it�s not far away from here, and the university got destroyed. Every time it happens it becomes even more frightening,� he said.

�It takes a missile one minute to fly here from Belgorod,� he says. �This one minute may just put an end to my life.�

Oleksii still wants to be an actor, to perform for audiences in his hometown, but even more he dreams of peace.

�I�ll have an apartment of my own, and I�ll work here at this theatre. After a performance, I�ll come home to have a good night�s sleep in my room, in my own bed, without any explosions or sirens. I�ll wake up and not think of being hit by a missile.�

Reminder that Russia can stop this needless destruction at any time by just leaving

HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Apr 26, 2023

# ? Apr 26, 2023 06:51

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# ? May 30, 2024 00:25

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

Nooner posted:

Right but why can't you just say that this particular guy is an rear end in a top hat and maybe official UA sources shouldn't promote their troops wearing Nazi insignia? why is this the hill to die on? My feeble American mind needs you to explain this to me Mr Enlightened European I'm too distracted kissing guns and bibles to understand

That guy is probably an rear end in a top hat and it's bad if he's wearing that because of far right views, i don't think it should be shown.

The caveat being that it might be that he's not. Remember when the general of the defence forces was wearing A NAZI RING???
https://mobile.twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1504529461219373060

I don't care because the world is full off assholes that don't matter. Except in America, hope you don't get overthrown by a fascist militia while looking for Nazi patches on the other side of the globe

Edit: just to reiterate, war torn impoverished Ukrainians when given the chance overwhelmingly elected a russian speaking Jewish Ukrainian. When given a chance, Americans, the most prosperous country on the planet elected a billionaire who promised to keep the non-whites out. Thats a real indicator of how Nazi your country is, not some randos with patches

Somaen fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Apr 26, 2023

# ? Apr 26, 2023 06:53

Karma Comedian: Feb 2, 2012

Quoting this for the new page

Karma Comedian posted:

I made no judgement about the band or their politics because I don't care to get to know people that use Nazi imagery and this band does.

Basically:

Shinjobi posted:
I really don't give a poo poo how someone rationalizes it--let the nazi imagery (and this discussion) die.

E:

HonorableTB posted:
the latest OH HO HOOOO, THE UKRONAZIS! is extremely transparent every time its done and it'd be great if we could get those ramped like war bad guy

the poster had one other probe before this one, next time we'll queue a ramp if they don't want to actually contribute

# ? Apr 26, 2023 06:58

zone: Dec 6, 2016

https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1650547530462113826
lmao should be listed under Russian losses

# ? Apr 26, 2023 07:07

AJA: Mar 28, 2015

Nooner posted:

Right but why can't you just say that this particular guy is an rear end in a top hat and maybe official UA sources shouldn't promote their troops wearing Nazi insignia? why is this the hill to die on? My feeble American mind needs you to explain this to me Mr Enlightened European I'm too distracted kissing guns and bibles to understand

This Particular Guy is or isn't an rear end in a top hat. I don't know him and I don't care a single gently caress about him. Nothing in this ""conflict"" is affecting and killing hundreds of thousands of people that matter in the slightest of shits about him or other odious Nazi dipshits like him.

Why not recognize instead that that 'this particular guy' is a nobody and also that there's no posters dying on this particular hill, because we all understand that this hill is comprised of the skulls of murdered women, men, and children. poo poo ain't hard. Nazis bad. Fascists bad.

Russia, that particular Ukraine guy Nazi (and also, yes, at the same time, his fellow travellers), GET hosed. You can have more than one concurrent thought in your head, is this so hard?

# ? Apr 26, 2023 07:19

Von Pluring: Sep 19, 2003; Zelensky's Zealots; Pork Pro

Nooner posted:

Right but why can't you just say that this particular guy is an rear end in a top hat and maybe official UA sources shouldn't promote their troops wearing Nazi insignia? why is this the hill to die on? My feeble American mind needs you to explain this to me Mr Enlightened European I'm too distracted kissing guns and bibles to understand

The Totenkopf insignia predates the nazis if I recall correctly, but yeah, it�s not a good look. I agree with Nooner. You�d most likely not wear this symbol if you weren�t a nazi�

# ? Apr 26, 2023 07:22

Icept: Jul 11, 2001

The dancing flamingo is right

# ? Apr 26, 2023 07:37

Homeless Friend: Jul 16, 2007

the funny thing about the nazi badges is they could ask em to take em off for the picture and put em right back on afterwards but they don't even bother lol. like the camera PR team could just carry around a bag of sanitized badges to cover em with or even just use photoshop for 10 seconds. no doubt its some brand of eastern euro political insanity, but also: respect.

e: i did it

Homeless Friend fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Apr 26, 2023

# ? Apr 26, 2023 07:41

Shaman Tank Spec: Dec 26, 2003; *blep*

Yle reporting on Russian spies in Finland and other Nordic countries.

Journalists: Jyri H�nninen, Mikko Pohja, Noora Raitanen
Article link: https://yle.fi/a/74-20028722

quote:

They are Putin's eyes and ears in the Nordics -- journalists revealed the names of tens of Russian diplomats who work for Russian intelligence agencies
A third of Russian embassy staff are in actuality intelligence agents. According to information obtained by Yle, Finnish Security Intelligence has repeatedly blocked their attempts to recruit spies.

Yle has discovered the identities of three Russian intelligence officers who operated in Finland. The investigations conducted by Yle's MOT and Spotlight editorial staffs are part of a joint Nordic effort to reveal the identities of tens of Russian intelligence officers.

Officially they are embassy staff, but in actuality work for Russia's foreign intelligence SVR, military intelligence GRU or national security FSB. Russia's embassy in Helsinki refused to comment on Yle's findings.

Sweden's national radio station SVT discovered the identities of 21 Russian intelligence officers. As many as 13 of them had worked as part of Russia's embassy in Stockholm as recently as april 2022.

Sweden reported this Tuesday that they are deporting five Russian diplomats whose actions conflict with their diplomatic status.

The spy has three names

One of the Russian intelligence officers identified by Yle is Dmitri Otorotskin, who worked at Russia's embassy from 2014 to 2018. After this he moved to work at Russia's embassy in Copenhagen, and was deported by Norway in 2022. In Finland Otorotskin worked as the third secretary of the embassy.

According to interviews MOT conducted with intelligence experts, this is a typical position for intelligence officers. They don't have any specifically defined diplomatic duties, which gives them the freedom to conduct intelligence operations. The more central embassy staff are rarely employees of intelligence agencies.

Otorotskin also served as Russia's representative on the commission to protect the Baltic Sea. He had a low profile at meetings and none of the commission members Yle interviewed remembered him.

Yle found three different profiles for Otorotskin in the Russian social media site Vkontakt, which all had different names. Pictures from these accounts were deleted in April, after Yle sent a comment request to the Russian embassy regarding their intelligence operations. Otorotskin himself was not reached for comment.

In reality Otorotskin is an agent for Russia's foreign intelligence agency SVR. This information was confirmed together with citizen organization Dossier Center as well as through Nordic intelligence sources. Denmark's public radio DR also published Otorotskin's name as part of their own findings.

- SVR's primary mode of operation in western countries as well as the rest of the world is to conduct long running and purposeful human intelligence. SVR employs roughly 13 000 - 15 000 people worldwide, says Mikko Porvali.

Porvali commented on SVR's operations in general, and did not comment on Otorotskin specifically. Porvali teaches the history of intelligence gathering at a university and has written several books on spies.

According to an estimate by Finnish Security Intelligence, a third of Russia's embassy staff are in reality intelligence officers.

- People who operate under the title of diplomat are granted diplomatic immunity, which means they don't have any danger of facing any kind of criminal investigations, Porvali explains.

According to an intelligence source interviewed by Yle's MOT staff, Finnish Security Intelligence has had to intervene repeatedly in Russia's attempts to recruit in Finland. In these cases a Russian intelligence operative requests information from Finns or suggests some other type of co-operation.

The ultimate aim is to create a relationship of trust, which will eventually allow the intelligence operative to obtain secret documents or other classified items, or in other words to recruit the person as an intelligence source.

Deported spies

After Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Nordic countries have tightened their approach to Russian intelligence operations. Finland also reported in April 2022 that they were deporting two members of Russia's embassy staff.

In April 2023 Finnish Security Intelligence reported that following its requests Finland has either deported, or declined visas for Russian intelligence officers. As a result of these operations, the number of Russian intelligence operatives in Finland has been halved.

FSI, the Ministry for Foreign Affairs and the office of the President did not reveal to Yle how many members of Russia's embassy staff have been booted out over the past year. Yle could confirm that at least two GRU operatives left the country.

One of them is Vladimir Komarov, 60, who until April 2022 worked as counselor at Russia's embassy. In Russian databases his address had been marked down as the address of Russia's military intelligence, GRU, in Moscow.

Norway also announced recently that they had deported as many as 15 Russian intelligence operatives. According to Norway's security police the reason for these deportations was acting in conflict with diplomatic status. The intelligence operatives had tried to recruit information sources and to buy classified Norwegian technology.

Russia also uses in its spy operations people, who have either been given false identities or whose connections to Russia's government have been hidden. In the intelligence world these kinds of people are called "illegals".

In October 2022 Norway reported they had discovered a Russian spy who claimed to be a Brazilian researcher. Intelligence sources interviewed by Yle also considered it likely that there are illegals also in Finland, ie. spies who do not operate under false diplomatic statuses.

Spying or intelligence?

With intelligence operations countries can obtain information to help them make decisions, mostly from public sources. This becomes spying when this information is stolen, or obtained through questionable means. Spying is defined as criminal activity also in Finland's criminal law.

Illegals are largely the responsibility of a country's foreign intelligence agencies, in Russia's case SVR. Mikko Porvali also considers it likely that Finland has this type of spies.

- Russia has a very well resourced governmental organization, whose sole responsibility is arranging for illegals in western countries. We also know for a fact that Russia still operates a program to generate and place illegals. It is quite likely that other Nordic countries besides Norway also have Russian illegals in them.

Illegals operate in long terms and for instance faking identities is a task that demands a lot of resources.

- One effective method is for instance to reclaim the identity of a person who died very young, and "resurrect" them this way. For instance Russian illegals who operated in the United States had the identities of people who had died as babies, Porvali says.

Similar methods have also been used by Russia in Finland.

Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Apr 26, 2023

# ? Apr 26, 2023 07:55

free hubcaps: Oct 12, 2009

Somaen posted:

No one gives a poo poo about a handful of right wingers in the context of a 44 million people nation that's getting invaded by a genocidal fascist state you loving moron

1. Uh oh, we gotta stop fascists!!
2. We gotta stop the war of conquest with ethnic cleansing that left hundreds of thousands dead right?
1. No. No. No, there's s guy with a bad patch. Mister Biden prepare the nukes

This is always from Americans, one of the most fascist countries on the planet that elected a white nationalist. gently caress off

Lol what country are you from friend

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:08

free hubcaps: Oct 12, 2009

Like seriously you realize you can criticize the official ministry of defense acount of the country for making a bad tweet and still be on the side of Ukraine, but no I guess we're all fascist Americans lol.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:16

Von Pluring: Sep 19, 2003; Zelensky's Zealots; Pork Pro

My very ineffective and slow-acting country, Sweden, just asked five embassy members to gtfo. The Russian embassy building has a bunch of weird shacks on top of it, probably filled with equipment for spying. They should just close the embassy and send the Russians packing, but that's never gonna happen.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:16

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

free hubcaps posted:

Lol what country are you from friend

Why, do you want to come bomb us? We have no oil, gently caress off fatass burger destroyer

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:17

free hubcaps: Oct 12, 2009

Somaen posted:

Why, do you want to come bomb us? We have no oil, gently caress off fatass burger destroyer

No I actually want to know for discussion purposes, but yes please keep casually getting super mad at anyone who mildly disagrees with you

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:19

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

I don't think the people dropping in to post Ukrs are Nazis are here to have a honest discussion, actually

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:24

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Not everybody is a boogeyman looking for sick owns on their posting enemies, ffs.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:29

Mr Teatime: Apr 7, 2009

JFC guys you don�t have to circle the wagons and get in the posting defence bunker because of a photo of one dipshit and his edgelord patch, it�s absolutely fine to agree it�s stupid and move on.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:30

Disco Pope: Dec 6, 2004; Top Class!

Somaen posted:

gently caress off fatass burger destroyer

New screenname found.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:31

Shinjobi: Jul 10, 2008; Gravy Boat 2k

Somaen posted:

I don't think the people dropping in to post Ukrs are Nazis are here to have a honest discussion, actually

But they ate rear end!!!!!! You have to believe me!!!!

Anyway gonna laugh if Ukraine keeps pressing the "everyone quiet" button and tenses Russia up for a counteroffensive that doesn't come. It's effective--I thought for sure something big was gonna happen over 48 hours. Do that a few more times, eventually they're gonna let their guard down for when it finally happens.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:39

zone: Dec 6, 2016

Shinjobi posted:

But they ate rear end!!!!!! You have to believe me!!!!

Anyway gonna laugh if Ukraine keeps pressing the "everyone quiet" button and tenses Russia up for a counteroffensive that doesn't come. It's effective--I thought for sure something big was gonna happen over 48 hours. Do that a few more times, eventually they're gonna let their guard down for when it finally happens.

I believe it's already been done during the Kherson counteroffensive at least once.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:40

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Ernst R�hm ate like half the old man asses in Weimar & Nazi Germany

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:43

Shinjobi: Jul 10, 2008; Gravy Boat 2k

zone posted:

I believe it's already been done during the Kherson counteroffensive at least once.

They're gonna be jumping at ghosts at this rate

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:48

appropriatemetaphor: Jan 26, 2006

here's some good Ukrainian post punk in penance for the previous post punk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ8NeQvOW6w

# ? Apr 26, 2023 08:58

MrQwerty: Apr 15, 2003; LOVE IS BEAUTIFUL (づ￣ �￣)づ♥(�∀�●)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J9MDi-Twuw

ministry of culture just canceled their papers to go on tour, not like I was gonna see them anyway but maybe one day

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:01

Karate Bastard: Jul 31, 2007; Soiled Meat

Somaen posted:

gently caress off fatass burger destroyer

It doesn't really matter what other arguments exist in this discussion. I think we can all agree that it was ended here.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:06

dk2m: May 6, 2009

Somaen posted:

Why, do you want to come bomb us? We have no oil, gently caress off fatass burger destroyer

Lmfao

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:17

free hubcaps: Oct 12, 2009

Someone call doobie and tell him we found a name for his new snack shack

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:23

Schweinhund: Oct 23, 2004

Mr Teatime posted:

JFC guys you don�t have to circle the wagons and get in the posting defence bunker because of a photo of one dipshit and his edgelord patch, it�s absolutely fine to agree it�s stupid and move on.

They're posting it as criticism for supporting Ukraine, which is bullshit. It's like someone going into a thread about immigration and posting articles about immigrants who commit murder or rape and wondering why it upsets the people in there.

You can do the same thing with Palestinians waving nazi flags and praising Hitler but you don't see these people go into the Palestine/Israel thread (which is 10x more violent and anti-Israel than anyone here is towards Russia) and criticizing them for supporting Palestine. It's a bullshit argument since there are nazis/murderers/bad people in any group that has millions of people in it.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:27

Drone_Fragger: May 9, 2007

If your main defence of Russia trying to do a genocide is "well some of the people resisting the genocide might be bad", I have some really bad news for you with regards to britain and usa
and the USSR in world war 2.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:33

Strawman: Feb 9, 2008; Tortuga means turtle, and that's me. I take my time but I always win.

free hubcaps posted:

Like seriously you realize you can criticize the official ministry of defense acount of the country for making a bad tweet and still be on the side of Ukraine, but no I guess we're all fascist Americans lol.

You can, but wouldn't you rather defend nazis and contribute to Putin's propaganda?

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:34

AJA: Mar 28, 2015

Karate Bastard posted:

It doesn't really matter what other arguments exist in this discussion. I think we can all agree that it was ended here.

Harsh, but fair

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:37

zone: Dec 6, 2016

Drone_Fragger posted:

If your main defence of Russia trying to do a genocide is "well some of the people resisting the genocide might be bad", I have some really bad news for you with regards to britain and usa
and the USSR in world war 2.

Anyone defending Russia using this point, specifically, after Bucha, Mariupol, and Izyum, are beneath contempt.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:39

tiaz: Jul 1, 2004; PICK UP THAT PRESENT.

Zelensky's Zealots

Nooner posted:

Lol buddy I've never been anything but on Ukraine's side about this in every version of this thread, but seriously, it's bad look, at least we can all agree that maybe they should have better judgement about posting pictures of guys wearing extremely identifiable Nazi symbols especially when the best we got is "nuh uh that's not what it means if you look really close at it zoomed up you'll recognize it is actually the opposite of that everyone knows that when you put a little 6 next to the Nazi skull it means he is a fan of some obscure rear end band you've never heard of and that's definitely why he bought it to wear around even though we are trying really hard to separate ourselves from that poo poo"

Don't fall for a monolithic "they". There are people around this guy, and he'll probably get photographed; that doesn't automatically mean it's a strategy by All Of Ukraine.

If one random dude anywhere in the Ukrainian military has lovely opinions, I don't care. Show me something structural - there are random assholes in every org.

e: poo poo, I missed a whole page and a half between clicking reply and composing. uh. sorry gang.

tiaz fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Apr 26, 2023

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:40

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Homeless Friend posted:

the funny thing about the nazi badges is they could ask em to take em off for the picture and put em right back on afterwards but they don't even bother lol. like the camera PR team could just carry around a bag of sanitized badges to cover em with or even just use photoshop for 10 seconds. no doubt its some brand of eastern euro political insanity, but also: respect.

e: i did it

Guess another round of twitter circlejerk each time (with people branded with hammer and sickle lol) it happens doesnt matter.
Or there is a dedicated chud in the team sneaking in imagery in publications

fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Apr 26, 2023

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:40

Butterfly Valley: Apr 19, 2007; I am a spectacularly bad poster and everyone in the Schadenfreude thread hates my guts.

Drone_Fragger posted:

If your main defence of Russia trying to do a genocide is "well some of the people resisting the genocide might be bad", I have some really bad news for you with regards to britain and usa
and the USSR in world war 2.

On the flip side if the defence of someone wearing nazi symbology is 'its OK though because some dude eats old man rear end' then there's also some incredible logical contortionism going on.

tiaz posted:

If one random dude anywhere in the Ukrainian military has lovely opinions, I don't care. Show me something structural - there are random assholes in every org.

This seems to happen with much more frequency than it just being attributable to one or two bad eggs or the Azov battalion though. Like I'm absolutely not saying its even the slightest justification for the invasion, nor am I pointing it out to attempt to erode support, but it should be possible to have a more nuanced conversation about why you can frequently see nazi-adjacent iconography on UA soldiers.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:51

ishikabibble: Jan 21, 2012

Von Pluring posted:

The Totenkopf insignia predates the nazis if I recall correctly, but yeah, it�s not a good look. I agree with Nooner. You�d most likely not wear this symbol if you weren�t a nazi�

etc

Re-appropriating nazi iconography for punk aesthetics is poo poo that's old as time.

Homeless Friend posted:

the funny thing about the nazi badges is they could ask em to take em off for the picture and put em right back on afterwards but they don't even bother lol. like the camera PR team could just carry around a bag of sanitized badges to cover em with or even just use photoshop for 10 seconds. no doubt its some brand of eastern euro political insanity, but also: respect.

e: i did it

lots of folks who aren't terminally online would not be able to actually recognize that skull as a specifically nazi skull without being told (see Rihanna literally wearing a loving reichsadler). plus, that's probably not a specifically posed photograph and was a purely candid shot, so you can't really ask 'hey can you take off that patch but also do that sleeping pose you were doing before'

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:55

kanonvandekempen: Mar 14, 2009

ishikabibble posted:

Re-appropriating nazi iconography for punk aesthetics is poo poo that's old as time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kHN8_Zbf3g

# ? Apr 26, 2023 09:59

free hubcaps: Oct 12, 2009

Sweden apparently launched a clandestine rocket attack on Norway on monday?? They must be getting real upset about the nato stonewalling

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65394912

# ? Apr 26, 2023 10:05

Alan Smithee: Jan 4, 2005; A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...

free hubcaps posted:

Sweden apparently launched a clandestine rocket attack on Norway on monday?? They must be getting real upset about the nato stonewalling

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65394912

article 5

# ? Apr 26, 2023 10:14

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# ? May 30, 2024 00:25

Splorange: Feb 23, 2011

Alan Smithee posted:

article 5

That's one way of making Sweden a part of NATO.

# ? Apr 26, 2023 10:16

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