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GlyphGryph posted:Total actual time and money is not actually the resource that's at a premium, though they can be as well, but generally it is capacity, complexity, practical time and money. Drive through meals have minimal overhead, minimal executive burden, and are very hard to gently caress up. Slow cooker dishes offer a hundred different things that need to be done and managed to make them happen and you can gently caress up at any of those steps. Home sandwiches are easier by a wide margin, but (and I say this as a sandwich lover) there's still at least a dozen potential failure points and a comparative increase in cognitive load. I know, I hit most of them pretty regularly and realize I've hosed myself yet again and end up ordering out instead because I just can't deal with yet another loving thing, you know? And that's working from home now, where everything is much simpler, I managed to gently caress up bringing sandwiches to the office at least twice a week on average. To put some numbers on when cognitive load causing sandwich and slow cooker failure points occurs… I used to work a lot of field hours. 70+ a week only getting 1 of 3 weekends off. To cope with this our office started tracking all hours on a running 7 day total. we based our maximum hours on the allowable driving hours for truckers so If we hit 70 hours in seven running days, that’s it, pass all work that was possible onto the other two employees. That 70 hours point… that’s the tired enough to gently caress up a sandwich line (probably shouldn’t be driving).
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Apr 27, 2023 22:13
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:In no world are you so hard pressed that drive thru at rush hour is saving you time or money compared to a million slow cooker dishes or even slapping together a sandwich at home. HFCS is easily avoidable without paying extra at fancy places, it’s at walmart for store brand prices. slow cooker: - requires you to own the proper equipment - requires you to get the proper groceries and ingredients - requires hours-before-meal prep (i.e. you cannot do it when the meal needs to happen) - requires you to clean dishes and silverware involved going to mcdonalds: - get in car and drive - someone else handles all the busy work - does not require any additional work beyond "go and eat" like, yes, is it "less money/time" to throw together a sandwich? sure. absolutely. but that ignores every other part of the equation, like work was hell, i'm loving exhausted, stressed out, and i do not want to think about this any more
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Apr 27, 2023 22:16
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https://journalstar.com/news/state-...d5da22d51e.html The heartbeat bill in the Nebraska unicameral just failed and it is expressly due to 1 Republican who rightly identified that it was a politically toxic own goal that promised to gently caress over the state's economy and growth for the foreseeable future.
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Apr 27, 2023 22:16
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haveblue posted:Young people just eat each others' asses so technical virgins at best Sorry but I think it's questionable to call Millennials "young" at this point.
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Apr 27, 2023 22:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:What do you mean by mental activity? Are you saying that it is possible to burn excess calories in any meaningful way by thinking harder/differently? I was just trying to be inclusive of any non-pee/poop activities that might spend energy. I never hear about the caloric content of human waste and if it changes based on factors such as caloric intake patterns.
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Apr 27, 2023 22:23
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One really common thing among immigrants to America is weight gain. These are the exact same people who used to weigh less, so it's not lack of willpower or knowledge, but our built environment - portion sizes are large as well as hyperpalatable and that gets normalized, you have to drive unless you live in one of a literal handful of cities, and the culture makes it acceptable to stress eat. Mellow Seas posted:Capitalism contributes but isn’t the sole explanation; Cuba’s obesity rates have shot way up over the last 25 years. All the other communist countries are East Asian countries which have extremely low levels of obesity overall, but rates in Japan and the ROK don’t seem all that much higher than in China or Vietnam. Of course, this "Asian BMI" is just a proxy for tendency for visceral fat accumulation, so in a better world we'd be able to determine when your body fat is not healthy vs using race as a proxy.
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Apr 27, 2023 23:05
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pork never goes bad posted:The basic law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems, which a human body is not. Hi there, professor who has been teaching thermodynamics for 10+ years here. This is categorically incorrect, and you either do not know what the definition of a closed system is, or the laws of thermodynamics. Not wishing to be rude, but if you don't know the definitions a student would learn in the first week of an introductory course in thermodynamics, you should not be speaking on the topic. This is not a point of pedantry, it's just an absolute fundamental misunderstanding of the subject. The "laws of thermodynamics" are, from zeroth to third, a definitional statement, a mathematical axiom proved by Noether, a statistical statement, and another statistical statement. They are true irrespective of the system definition. Calories in-calories out equals delta calories, is absolutely true from a thermodynamic perspective, and if you're arguing against that, you're simply harming your credibility. Whether that has any relevance to weight loss and policy is a separate question, and there is, I'm sure, plenty of evidence to suggest that caloric burn is influenced by caloric intake. This doesn't mean that energy is no longer a conserved property.
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Apr 27, 2023 23:24
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If you drop calories going into the system far enough then yes weight loss will happen - that's basic thermodynamics. The problem for weight loss is that the body has fun things like hormones and instinct to override whatever free will you think people have to ensure the organism continues to survive, and that system was honed in during 3,700,000,000 years of scarcity compared to the maybe 70ish years of caloric plenty we've experienced in the US. You have just as good of a chance to willpower yourself into not ovulating this month.
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Apr 28, 2023 00:03
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Majestic posted:Hi there, professor who has been teaching thermodynamics for 10+ years here. Noted, and thank you. In other posts I said that when people use the phrase calories in, calories out they are either saying something false or something trivial (in this context). The trivial thing is your "Calories in-calories out equals delta calories." It's simply not useful advice for someone trying to lose weight, nor is it a useful fact to consider when formulating public health policy. I can see how my sloppy phrasing and poor argument would distract from those points. It was never my intent to suggest that energy was not conserved; nevertheless that is basically what I said, so I appreciate the correction. I am working on a thread discussing obesity and public health policy in which I will advocate for a shift from the current weight focused approach to a more specifically health focused approach. I want to move this discussion, or at least my contribution to it, elsewhere because this is a topic of interest to those outside the US too, because it's somewhat of a derail to continue here, and because this thread moves too fast for me to adequately respond. I will endeavor to be more precise in my discussions of the calories in, calories out discourse, my use of technical terms from other disciplines like "paradigm", and my definition of the current weight focused approach and its underlying assumptions. I will also endeavor to be more clear about the structure of my argument, where I am attempting to iron man the unrepresented side of a debate to demonstrate that there remain open questions about the underlying assumptions of the weight focused approach, and where I am making a specific claim on which my policy argument rests. I will post a link here once I post it, perhaps tomorrow. If anyone has feedback on what you'd like to see me address or incorporate, please let me have it!
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Apr 28, 2023 00:20
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:If you drop calories going into the system far enough then yes weight loss will happen - that's basic thermodynamics. The problem for weight loss is that the body has fun things like hormones and instinct to override whatever free will you think people have to ensure the organism continues to survive, and that system was honed in during 3,700,000,000 years of scarcity compared to the maybe 70ish years of caloric plenty we've experienced in the US. You have just as good of a chance to willpower yourself into not ovulating this month. The ability to just drop the pounds through willpower is vastly overstated in the public consciousness, however let's not go slingshotfing around Jupiter in the other direction. It's unreasonable to expect someone to willpower their way through 100lbs of weightloss, and write them off as weak when decades of habit and internal bodily functions working against them end up resulting in them coming short. However people do willpower their way into success, and even minor changes that are advantageous to your health at their base require you will to change your current habits.
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Apr 28, 2023 00:20
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I should say one thing here, though - I don't think anyone serious on any side of the weight and public health debate is advocating a position where lifestyle modification is not recommended to patients presenting with risk factors for or diagnoses of chronic health conditions associated with metabolic syndrome. The debate is about what the target of interventions should be, and about what messaging should be disseminated at a societal level about these issues. That is to say, if a person who presents to their doctor as prediabetic starts exercising more and eating some different foods, how do we measure the success of their intervention? Is it by measuring changes to their weight, or by measuring changes to their biomarkers for type 2 diabetes, or by measuring some more holistic definition of wellbeing that includes mental health and life satisfaction in addition to markers of physical health?
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Apr 28, 2023 00:26
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:If you drop calories going into the system far enough then yes weight loss will happen - that's basic thermodynamics. The problem for weight loss is that the body has fun things like hormones and instinct to override whatever free will you think people have to ensure the organism continues to survive, and that system was honed in during 3,700,000,000 years of scarcity compared to the maybe 70ish years of caloric plenty we've experienced in the US. You have just as good of a chance to willpower yourself into not ovulating this month. Just a nitpicky pedantic point of order here, but hunger doesn't totally shut down your free will. It makes it unpleasant and difficult to not eat what your body thinks it should be eating, but human beings are entirely capable of enduring and resisting those urges. Comparing overeating to ovulation, an bodily process you have literally zero conscious control over, is more than a little ridiculous. I understand the urge to point out that weight loss is more difficult than just "eating less calories" because your body will try to force you to eat more calories. But I think you're going a bit too far in the other direction!
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Apr 28, 2023 00:27
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I dislike the thermodynamic simplification just because it trivializes what goes into actual sustained weight loss (not that any one person might intend it that way). Any problem where an increasing majority of people are struggling will not come down to simply choosing wrong. If there were a dial that could be turned to fix it (food in down, calories out up, bing bang boom), most people would already be doing that successfully.
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Apr 28, 2023 00:31
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I was compelled by Yog-Sothoth to stuff my face with pizza and doritos. No human can deny the will of an Outer God.
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Apr 28, 2023 00:52
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USCE Spring: Basically GWS now.
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Apr 28, 2023 00:52
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Main Paineframe posted:Just a nitpicky pedantic point of order here, but hunger doesn't totally shut down your free will. It makes it unpleasant and difficult to not eat what your body thinks it should be eating, but human beings are entirely capable of enduring and resisting those urges. Comparing overeating to ovulation, an bodily process you have literally zero conscious control over, is more than a little ridiculous. I feel like your pedantic retort swings it too far the other way again with "unpleasant". It's not just merely going "I will simply not eat so much", it's constantly ignoring and rejecting your body's call to eat something. There is a systemic problem and "just willpower harder" is not the answer. If it was, we wouldn't be in the middle of an obesity crisis. And this is before we get into childhood obesity, where a lot of these habits and poo poo get formed. Fake edit: Like seriously, it sounds like this poo poo is the equivalent of telling an anorexic or bulimic person "have you simply considered not having an eating disorder?" EE: this isn't to say that a person's will or motivation isn't a factor whatsoever, but again, consider the fact that something like nearly half of US adults have this problem and maybe just trying harder isn't the sole solution we need.
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Apr 28, 2023 00:55
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Jaxyon posted:Insurers literally use personal BMI as a cutoff for covering bariatric surgery This isn’t correct. There is a BMI cutoff where patients aren’t a candidate for bariatric surgery just because at a certain size the risks of surgery outweigh the potential benefits. These are extreme examples though and I can’t recall a patient of mine ever being flat out refused due to BMI. Bariatric surgery is notable because to qualify you have to a.) show you can lose weight on your own first (not sure how they calculate this) and b.) be in a good enough place mentally to be successful. Not just psych comorbidities (a lot of serious psych drugs lead to weight gain) but understanding what is expected of them as a patient. Bariatric surgery is a huge decision and you have to be wary of the patient that is under the impression they get the procedure and they don’t have to adjust anything about their lives. To say nothing that if these procedures fail they can be life threatening. And this is a good thing. lovely surgeons will do lower back procedures on overweight patients and not mention to them that the surgery will fail in six months if they don’t lose weight. And just in general, BMI is just used as a tracking tool. Seeing someone’s high bmi on a chart means nothing to me if I’ve never seen them. Unless it’s a HUGE number. BMI is more alarming on the lower end. Even if you go to weight management they’ll use a ton of different metrics to track progress. BMI will be there too but it’s just another number on the screen.
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Apr 28, 2023 01:18
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It should be noted that then Senator George McGovern, try to do something about the poor nutritional quality of food promoted to the general public, the agriculture interest stepped all over it, and nixed his attempt to fix the problem. I wrote an open letter to Bill Maher about his “Covid and Obesity” rant (mind you I’m a former morbidly obese person who has kept that weight off for close to 30 years) and covered this. https://medium.com/weight-loss-truths/covid-and-obesity-an-open-letter-to-bill-maher-2bbf72df8102
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Apr 28, 2023 02:03
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I don't see how overwork is that responsible for American obesity. People in Korea and Japan overwork like crazy and they're nowhere near as fat as Americans
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Apr 28, 2023 02:07
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Zamujasa posted:I feel like your pedantic retort swings it too far the other way again with "unpleasant". It's not just merely going "I will simply not eat so much", it's constantly ignoring and rejecting your body's call to eat something. There is a systemic problem and "just willpower harder" is not the answer. If it was, we wouldn't be in the middle of an obesity crisis. You absolutely can willpower harder to get through. I've done it, and "unpleasant" is about right. Of the things I've willpowered through, hunger... isn't really one of the hard ones? It's nothing compared to one of the tough ones like boredom or fear - at least, and this should be emphasized, for me. But I'm also clear and abundant evidence that willpower isn't the solution, even if it can be a component. poo poo doesn't benefit you one iota unless several of the other pieces are in order. FizFashizzle posted:This isn’t correct. Err... that is absolutely correct. At least for my insurance they need a minimum BMI before they'll consider you as a candidate. If you want to talk maximum BMI, though, I've only ever been denied for that for the sleep apnea surgery I (almost) had last year. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Apr 28, 2023 |
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Apr 28, 2023 02:13
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Charlz Guybon posted:I don't see how overwork is that responsible for American obesity. People in Korea and Japan overwork like crazy and they're nowhere near as fat as Americans Preparing healthy food takes time and there is a Subway and/or McDonalds within a stone's throw of virtually every household in the country, and every grocery store in America is packed to the gills with frozen pizzas and Hamburger Helper.
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Apr 28, 2023 02:25
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GlyphGryph posted:You absolutely can willpower harder to get through. I've done it, and "unpleasant" is about right. Of the things I've willpowered through, hunger... isn't really one of the hard ones? It's nothing compared to one of the tough ones like boredom or fear - at least, and this should be emphasized, for me. There is a lot of evidence that this is extremely variable. Your experience does not necessarily match up with the experiences of those with fewer resources or different neurochemistry.
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Apr 28, 2023 02:25
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Has there been any effort to recalculate BMI for modern populations given that average heights have increased by like 8-9% since the 1830s? It seems to me that it breaks down for taller populations because it's kg/m^2 but body mass increases somewhat more because we're 3 dimensional beings and not 2 dimensional. Like if you're 6 foot even and weigh 185lbs you're technically overweight and that seems a little ridiculous to me as someone who is 6'4" like most goons are. 185 is supposed to be like my ideal weight per BMI and when I weigh that much I have to buy all my pants online because no one stocks 32/36 in the stores. E: It seems there are many better developed scales, the simplest of which is the CI (corpulence index) which is literally just what I described above, using actual density measures with an index of 12 as healthy weight for adults instead of 22.5. Why doesn't the medical community use the more advanced indexes instead of BMI? It seems like the difference between using batting average to measure a baseball player's performance instead of OPS to make a nerdy sabrmetrics analogy rscott fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Apr 28, 2023 |
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Apr 28, 2023 02:46
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Quorum posted:There is a lot of evidence that this is extremely variable. Your experience does not necessarily match up with the experiences of those with fewer resources or different neurochemistry. Everyone can use willpower to lose weight, and almost everyone who honestly undertakes a diet/exercise change achieves weight loss. The problem is that to sustain that weight loss most people then need to exercise constant vigilance. Both the initial loss and the sustained state of weight loss could be considered to use willpower, which is I think the crux of the argument here. I'd argue that keep the weight off isn't about willpower, but about focus. Constant, daily, focus that continues on while you are also focusing on every other part of your life. Again, I think it's just a definitional argument though where we all seem to mostly be on the same page about the difficulty of long term sustainability. Sort of like how the actions of lifting a weight and holding a weight could both be refereed to as feats of strength, or you could see it as strength to lift the weight and endurance to maintain the elevation.
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Apr 28, 2023 03:00
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VideoGameVet posted:It should be noted that then Senator George McGovern, try to do something about the poor nutritional quality of food promoted to the general public, the agriculture interest stepped all over it, and nixed his attempt to fix the problem. When Michelle Obama wanted school kids to have more nutritious lunches a bunch of angry parents yelled "but my little MaKaitlynn only eats chicken nuggets!"
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Apr 28, 2023 03:07
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I think when it comes to examining obesity in america and the social aspects its important to be the bigger man
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Apr 28, 2023 03:16
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rscott posted:Has there been any effort to recalculate BMI for modern populations given that average heights have increased by like 8-9% since the 1830s? It seems to me that it breaks down for taller populations because it's kg/m^2 but body mass increases somewhat more because we're 3 dimensional beings and not 2 dimensional. Like if you're 6 foot even and weigh 185lbs you're technically overweight and that seems a little ridiculous to me as someone who is 6'4" like most goons are. 185 is supposed to be like my ideal weight per BMI and when I weigh that much I have to buy all my pants online because no one stocks 32/36 in the stores. BMI categories have been repeatedly updated by modern organizations. CI has the same inputs and thus the same underlying issues as BMI. Most better indices require additional measurements and inputs, which has been the primary reason they're not used in clinical guidelines. The AAP guideline revision that was discussed in the recent winter thread has a section devoted to the question of BMI use that may be illustrative of why it sees ongoing clinical use. See section VII A.
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Apr 28, 2023 03:22
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Zamujasa posted:I feel like your pedantic retort swings it too far the other way again with "unpleasant". It's not just merely going "I will simply not eat so much", it's constantly ignoring and rejecting your body's call to eat something. There is a systemic problem and "just willpower harder" is not the answer. If it was, we wouldn't be in the middle of an obesity crisis. Ignoring and rejecting your body's call to do something is a thing that we as human beings do all the time. It can certainly be done if someone is sufficiently motivated. People have willingly starved themselves to death when motivated to do so. Where did I say that "trying harder is the sole solution we need"? There's all sorts of sociological things to consider, not to mention the nature of the modern food industry making it more difficult.
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Apr 28, 2023 03:58
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GlyphGryph posted:
Oh I’m sorry I misunderstood. Yeah you’re right about that.
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Apr 28, 2023 04:13
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lovely food has a higher profit margin. That's one factor. There's a ton of sugar in drinks and snacks, many people have no control over what's available to them without unreasonable or significant effort. Like many modern problems there are many factors involved and they vary in significance from person to person. No easy answers to complex problems but steps to improve things or prevent things from getting worse are mostly moving in the right direction. Influenced by personal experience it feels like it should be easier for people to eat better and exercise but I have no appetite if I haven't been active and have to force myself to eat those days. I'm also technically overweight at 25.1 BMI.
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Apr 28, 2023 04:54
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"You can will your way through a diet, I've done it, it's just hard" is sort of the core of the problematic attitude. If you've done it, we can conclusively say that the sum total of factors in your life contributed to it being possible for you. As a human, when something feels difficult that we nonetheless achieved, it is natural (but wrong) to conclude that your own strength was the primary contributing factor and other people, if they merely exercised the same tenacity, would also succeed. On a sociological scale that is demonstrably false, is my point.
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Apr 28, 2023 05:13
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Zophar posted:Preparing healthy food takes time and there is a Subway and/or McDonalds within a stone's throw of virtually every household in the country, and every grocery store in America is packed to the gills with frozen pizzas and Hamburger Helper. You think Koreans and Japanese salarymen don't just chow down on cup ramen and pound down shots when they get out of work? Because that's what they do.
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Apr 28, 2023 05:18
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:In no world are you so hard pressed that drive thru at rush hour is saving you time or money compared to a million slow cooker dishes or even slapping together a sandwich at home. HFCS is easily avoidable without paying extra at fancy places, it’s at walmart for store brand prices. Your privilege is leaking. It will save my sanity and not having to think because I’m too tired to think and don’t have the sheer luxury you clearly do. The people putting HFCS in my food are getting paid much more and have vastly more time to think on how to do it than I have to avoid it. Perhaps you know them.
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Apr 28, 2023 06:17
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Charlz Guybon posted:You think Koreans and Japanese salarymen don't just chow down on cup ramen and pound down shots when they get out of work? Because that's what they do. Also smoking like chimneys iirc.
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Apr 28, 2023 06:24
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Also smoking like chimneys iirc. That too, it's gotten better since I came to Korea, but that just means going from 60s styles smoking numbers to 80s.
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Apr 28, 2023 06:32
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And yeah, we're at the point where being fit and attractive is explicitly a status symbol, because the wealthy can afford the time, space and equipment to exercise, personal trainers and group activities outside the house. While everyone else has had every reason and opportunity to go outside for anything but school or work taken away, and most of the Anglosphere is completely reliant on their car to get around.
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Apr 28, 2023 06:38
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Again, HFCS isn't processed differently from other sugars.
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Apr 28, 2023 07:44
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Ghost Leviathan posted:And yeah, we're at the point where being fit and attractive is explicitly a status symbol, because the wealthy can afford the time, space and equipment to exercise, personal trainers and group activities outside the house. While everyone else has had every reason and opportunity to go outside for anything but school or work taken away, and most of the Anglosphere is completely reliant on their car to get around. You don't need to be rich to go outside and do outdoor activities, and you don't need a personal trainer to exercise. It's certainly easier to exercise when you can build your own in-home gym and hire a personal coach to come up with exercise routines for you, but that doesn't mean that poor people can't exercise if they want to.
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Apr 28, 2023 07:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Two new studies out today that confirm trends among the youth that started about 15 years ago, but accelerated in the last 5, are still going on. See, I was just ahead of the curve.
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Apr 28, 2023 07:55
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Eh personally I think food is probably the greatest, most easily available and societally accepted form of dopamine rush on existence. Which just then basically puts you on genetic lottery as to how much you are suspectible on getting addicted to that particular rush and how much are you going to be affected by the negative consequences. And obviously if you are rich you can access superior and healthier versions of the same rush. Like crack VS cocaine. Both are still superior to whatever we could get as hunter gatherers and drives our ape brains crazy. Of course rich people may still get addicted to the lovely version just like some rich people smoke crack. I guess Donald Trump is a good example of this?
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Apr 28, 2023 08:53
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