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Leave posted:Star Wars Jedi: Survivor has an accessibility toggle for arachnophobia, which will slightly change an enemy model so it is less spidery. I'm not bothered by big video game spiders too much myself, but that's a fuckin dope thing for the devs to do. Apparently an unpopular decision based both on twitter responses and our very on steam thread in Games
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Apr 29, 2023 17:35
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Grounded with the arachnophobia slider all the way up turned the spiders into hosed up orb monstrosities that I actually found more disturbing than the fully spidered-up spiders.
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Apr 29, 2023 17:38
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Leal posted:Apparently an unpopular decision based both on twitter responses and our very on steam thread in Games  I will never understand the amount of hatred some gamers have for options they are not forced to toggle.
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Apr 29, 2023 17:38
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It's because you're not cheating the game, you're cheating yourself. ( )
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Apr 29, 2023 17:44
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Leal posted:Apparently an unpopular decision based both on twitter responses and our very on steam thread in Games What? Why? Who gives a poo poo? It's like getting mad that a game has subtitles!
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Apr 29, 2023 17:45
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Obviously if they hadn't assigned a developer to implementing the spider slider, the developer would have spent their time on your favorite feature instead. Yes, you specifically, reading this
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Apr 29, 2023 18:17
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ZeusCannon posted:What? Why? Who gives a poo poo? It's like getting mad that a game has subtitles! Yes it was very dumb
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Apr 29, 2023 18:30
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ZeusCannon posted:What? Why? Who gives a poo poo? It's like getting mad that a game has subtitles! Git güd, hearingailures. 
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Apr 29, 2023 18:47
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ZeusCannon posted:What? Why? Who gives a poo poo? It's like getting mad that a game has subtitles! Twitter says its devs being soft. Which is strange that twitter was the... softer option, whereas on here it was declared you're a pussy if you use it. Then goons started going on about how the option should instead add more spiders.
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Apr 29, 2023 18:51
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Leal posted:Twitter says its devs being soft. Which is strange that twitter was the... softer option, whereas on here it was declared you're a pussy if you use it. Then goons started going on about how the option should instead add more spiders. That should only apply when the toggle is related to homophobia/transphobia, not arachnophobia.
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Apr 29, 2023 18:54
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Games should have woke slider if you happen to have low tolerance for things like girls kissing.
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Apr 29, 2023 19:03
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Captain Hygiene posted:I'm curious what it's gonna look like when I get there. I'm arachnophobic, but the spiders in more fantastical games are generally ok. If they just plopped a giant tarantula or something in there, it might be toggle time. Since Jedi Survivor wants to be Dark Souls/Sekiro, the spiders should be using tools in their hands like General Grievous
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Apr 29, 2023 19:53
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I have no inherent issue with arachnophobia modes, but I do worry about them in like a slippery-slope kinda way - a lot of the framing is in the form of 'accessibility,' which is the same word used for, like, making sure roads are traversable, but a piece of art shouldn't be required to be accessible to everyone in the same way. If you want to and can, that's great, but people always talk about how, like, (to use the example that starts the most fights) Dark Souls needs to have an easy mode because otherwise it's unexperiencable by people with certain disabilities, so it's a moral obligation to do so And eventually that burden just becomes too much and stifles the creation of new art and spaces, because there's ALWAYS more and more niche things to make something more 'accessible,' removing more things that bother people The Discord server I used to spend the most time in has a policy of being the most inclusive possible, and anything anybody says they can't deal with is banned... which means that, after a couple years, the list of banned topics now looks like: Excessive Blood/Gore Eyes Pregnancy and Babies Any fungus or mushrooms Hands The ocean or any deep water Vomit Cats outside Spiders Fish Food Guns the phrase "Good [X]" Clowns or other types of costumed jokers and I have stopped posting because I might accidentally mention something I ate or say I like going to the beach or something
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Apr 29, 2023 19:55
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John Lee posted:I have no inherent issue with arachnophobia modes, but I do worry about them in like a slippery-slope kinda way - a lot of the framing is in the form of 'accessibility,' which is the same word used for, like, making sure roads are traversable, but a piece of art shouldn't be required to be accessible to everyone in the same way. If you want to and can, that's great, but people always talk about how, like, (to use the example that starts the most fights) Dark Souls needs to have an easy mode because otherwise it's unexperiencable by people with certain disabilities, so it's a moral obligation to do so A slider or option that's turned off by default seems like a pretty reasonable middle of the road between that and 'haha people are such pussies'
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Apr 29, 2023 20:02
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Cool Kids Club Soda posted:A slider or option that's turned off by default seems like a pretty reasonable middle of the road between that and 'haha people are such pussies' That list is incredible though
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Apr 29, 2023 20:06
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John Lee posted:I have no inherent issue with arachnophobia modes, but I do worry about them in like a slippery-slope kinda way - a lot of the framing is in the form of 'accessibility,' which is the same word used for, like, making sure roads are traversable, but a piece of art shouldn't be required to be accessible to everyone in the same way. If you want to and can, that's great, but people always talk about how, like, (to use the example that starts the most fights) Dark Souls needs to have an easy mode because otherwise it's unexperiencable by people with certain disabilities, so it's a moral obligation to do so I worry that posts like this are a slippery slope to someone Kramering in and ranting about trigger warnings or movies having age ratings
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Apr 29, 2023 20:11
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As an arachnophobe myself, calling it "accessibility" as if a fear of spiders is equal to being deaf or blind is...uncomfortable? Feels like the 'tag your pomegranates' school of thought.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:12
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Dragon Age 2 also had a similar setting that replaced spider models with war dogs. I'm guessing that also applied to the elephant-sized spiders.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:12
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Byzantine posted:As an arachnophobe myself, calling it "accessibility" as if a fear of spiders is equal to being deaf or blind is...uncomfortable? Feels like the 'tag your pomegranates' school of thought. Accessibility and difficulty options have been conflated for years now. People complained that Elden Ring was hostile to disabled people because it doesn't have a quest tracker
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Apr 29, 2023 20:14
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John Lee posted:Any fungus or mushrooms Sounds like you were in a discord where fun guys weren't allowed
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Apr 29, 2023 20:16
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sebmojo posted:That list is incredible though Good Hands
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Apr 29, 2023 20:16
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RareAcumen posted:I worry that posts like this are a slippery slope to someone Kramering in and ranting about trigger warnings or movies having age ratings The only slippery slope we should be talking about is slip'n'slides
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Apr 29, 2023 20:17
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Hitting the arachnophobia slider in Spider-Man just autoplays the JJJ podcasts.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:26
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Mafia: Definitive Edition (Fairly mild mid-story spoilers) MC, when finding a dead dog during a mission: "Christ, what kind of a guy would shoot a dog?" Me, smart and funny: "Oh poo poo, I'm going to be shooting cops in this mission lol" The game, after a gunfight moments later: "Oh poo poo, the bad guys in this mission turned out to be cops!!!" I'm not sure if that was actually meant to be humorous foreshadowing of sorts, but I kind of think it had to have been.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:32
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Cool Kids Club Soda posted:A slider or option that's turned off by default seems like a pretty reasonable middle of the road between that and 'haha people are such pussies' Oh yeah, agreed - like I said, it's cool for it to exist, and even if I were entirely neutral I'd still enjoy seeing the ways people came up with stuff to get around it (orbs, cats, etc). I just don't like the framing that pops out sometimes that it or other ways of making a game more pleasant or easy to use for more people have a moral obligation to exist, because that puts an unnecessary burden on, like, everyone, where every indie dev who whacks out a seven-day roguelike has to have a dozen different accessibility modes.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:33
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John Lee posted:Oh yeah, agreed - like I said, it's cool for it to exist, and even if I were entirely neutral I'd still enjoy seeing the ways people came up with stuff to get around it (orbs, cats, etc). I just don't like the framing that pops out sometimes that it or other ways of making a game more pleasant or easy to use for more people have a moral obligation to exist, because that puts an unnecessary burden on, like, everyone, where every indie dev who whacks out a seven-day roguelike has to have a dozen different accessibility modes. Sounds like a pretty slippery situation
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Apr 29, 2023 20:35
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The thing about accessibility-adjacent sliders (arachnophobia, tinnitus, etc) is that not only is nobody forcing people to turn them ON, nobody is forcing the developers to put them IN, either. With a few exceptions, nobody comes to my desk and is like “drop what you’re doing and help out with the key rebinding code”. It’s more often that I, when working on a feature, think “oh this would suck for people who are different than me in ways X Y and Z” and I come up with a few possible mitigation plans. I present those to production and we agree on something and roll the time into the standard workload. I agree that not every piece of work has to be consumable by everyone, but when your game has to sell several million units to break even you need to include as many people as you can. Indie studios who cater to people with assorted accessibility needs are finding that it pays off too - same goes for localization. Follow the money - the giant publishers would not be doing this if they didn’t smell cash.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:51
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Artemis J Brassnuts posted:The thing about accessibility-adjacent sliders (arachnophobia, tinnitus, etc) is that not only is nobody forcing people to turn them ON, nobody is forcing the developers to put them IN, either. With a few exceptions, nobody comes to my desk and is like “drop what you’re doing and help out with the key rebinding code”. It’s more often that I, when working on a feature, think “oh this would suck for people who are different than me in ways X Y and Z” and I come up with a few possible mitigation plans. I present those to production and we agree on something and roll the time into the standard workload. I’m as anti-capitalist as anyone around here, but if you can’t convince developers to include accessibility options for the myriad reasons that it makes good sense like for instance their being used in novel ways other than intended, making the game mmore inviting overall, creating bespoke experiences for a wide range of players, or yeah, because it’s a cool and good thing to do, then at the least I think it’s worth remembering that disability encompasses a huge range of variance and there are untapped market segments that you just couldn’t reach if you didn’t bother. When all else fails, appeal to the mercenary nature of commodities. On the spider thing, as an actual visually impaired person I kinda roll my eyes a little, but who gives a good god drat? If developers want to find strange ways to be inclusive and welcoming, I’m never going to poo poo on them for attempting it, even if it doesn’t appeal to me, personally. The whiny contingent of bigotted assholes that feel the need to patronize and gatekeep the experiences of people who are not like them for the sake of developer “vision,” are just exclusionary dickheads, no two ways about it. Wanna know how to spot the rear end in a top hat? Propose that perhaps this doesn’t effect you personally, nor should it. It’s stunning how many people will double down in that instance, rather than going oh poo poo maybe I didn’t think about that.
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Apr 29, 2023 21:11
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Accessibility based design also provably doesn't stifle creativity. Several countries already have to 'restrict' what they put in their video games and yet still creatively include those elements. Capcom have been releasing entirely separate dismemberment free versions of Resident Evil since the 90s (you might know of it, it's called Biohazard). Recently Elden Ring managed to secure a CERO D in spite of this dismemberment happening directly in front of the camera, not to mention several of the enemy types. It seems like these developers are doing just fine at implementing creative twists on taboo subjects. No video game can legally include the Red Cross symbol, but count how many times you've seen it in games colored green or with a line through it or something. Accessibility doesn't just refer to the human senses, never has, it also extends to our common symbols. CJacobs has a new favorite as of 21:27 on Apr 29, 2023 |
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Apr 29, 2023 21:23
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I think it’s decapitation that gets you an instant CERO Z, not general dismemberment.
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Apr 29, 2023 21:24
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There's a lot of this too, but people have blind spots in their rationale and thinking. Slippery slope arguments where A will lead to Z without taking into account that every step along that path is an opportunity for a different outcome, or catastrophizing outcomes in their head are not logical positions, but nobody ever said people are logical. Part of it is hardwiring, part of it conditioning But yeh, BurningBeard posted:Wanna know how to spot the rear end in a top hat? Propose that perhaps this doesn’t effect you personally, nor should it. It’s stunning how many people will double down in that instance, rather than going oh poo poo maybe I didn’t think about that. See also : being asked to explain their thinking and refusing to, or getting defensive and angry when presented with evidence that other people think differently e: CJacobs posted:Accessibility based design also provably doesn't stifle creativity. Creative work often benefits and is shaped by "limitations" and other considerations. Working within constraints can give one the inspiration and freedom to explore entirely new avenues that they hadn't thought of before Cool Kids Club Soda has a new favorite as of 21:35 on Apr 29, 2023 |
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Apr 29, 2023 21:28
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I always like twists in games where something supernatural has been happening, but the root cause got it involved by accident and was just trying to do something human and terrible. I've been watching a run of a game with that kind of twist where the player goes through with physical attacks only, so it brought that to mind (specifically Persona 4 where the plot hinges on the villain being an attempted serial rapist who accidentally ended up throwing his first victims into the TV world because they struggled too hard, then got interested in that world from there).
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Apr 29, 2023 21:29
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your insane discord friends do not shape game dev policy lmao shadows of doubt is maybe the greatest thief game ever. had a random NPC decide to break into the same apartment as me, then set the turret off on both of us Douche Wolf 89 has a new favorite as of 21:32 on Apr 29, 2023 |
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Apr 29, 2023 21:30
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CJacobs posted:Accessibility based design also provably doesn't stifle creativity. Several countries already have to 'restrict' what they put in their video games and yet still creatively include those elements. Capcom have been releasing entirely separate dismemberment free versions of Resident Evil since the 90s (you might know of it, it's called Biohazard). Recently Elden Ring managed to secure a CERO D in spite of this dismemberment happening directly in front of the camera, not to mention several of the enemy types. It seems like these developers are doing just fine at implementing creative twists on taboo subjects. Really fascinating stuff, some of which I didn’t know. Hey btw I didn’t get a chance to say so last time this came up in the thread, but I loved your Surge/BB vids dude. Meant to say so before, but forgot. Hope you’re still making stuff. LPs have been really good for me when a game poses an unrealistic barrier for me to work around. Funny side thing about that, Souls/Sekeiro of all things are actually closer to being accessible than you’d think. But that’s a whole other thing.
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Apr 29, 2023 21:31
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Include an achievement/trophy for beating the first spider enemy that just says "Hello, CJacobs!"
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Apr 29, 2023 21:31
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CJacobs posted:No video game can legally include the Red Cross symbol, but count how many times you've seen it in games colored green or with a line through it or something. I have to say, I've always felt that's a pretty silly restriction, although I understand where the Red Cross is coming from. I found it pretty funny that newer versions of the original doom.wad file edit the red medkit symbol to an up arrow. On an accessibility note, I think that Jedi Fallen Order kind of puts the lie to the idea that accessibility options would ruin souls like games. Just letting me increase the timing tolerances for things like partying made that game so much more enjoyable for me. I still regret spending $60 on Elden Ring, I really wanted to experience more of that game than my ability is going to allow. Agents are GO! has a new favorite as of 21:35 on Apr 29, 2023 |
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Apr 29, 2023 21:32
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A lot of the time when I hear people complaining about spiders in videogames, it's not "I can't play games with spiders in them", it's "I'm sick of devs using spiders an enemy designs because I find them to be more upsetting than most people do." From the dev's perspective, though, a lost sale is a lost sale, whether it's because the person can't play the game or because they simply choose not to. Framing their market-broadening efforts as accessibility is just good PR.
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Apr 29, 2023 21:33
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It also betrays a type of laziness/lack of imagination. "Oh, just throw a spider in there". Come up with something interesting, it's easy to exploit such a universal phobia (as even if people aren't arachnophobic, they may still have a knee jerk reaction to it). The spider level in Nioh is a neat level structurally and the cobwebs changing the layout of the town so that it's unrecognisable to navigate is a cool use of the enemy type, but the other yokai are just more interesting.
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Apr 29, 2023 21:38
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BioEnchanted posted:Include an achievement/trophy for beating the first spider enemy that just says "Hello, CJacobs!" "All you had to do was hit the drat toggle, CJ!"
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Apr 29, 2023 21:39
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Why don't you want arachnophobia toggles? What are you, some kind of filthy spider-lover??
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Apr 29, 2023 21:42
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