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Capital Letdown posted:Can I ask - I've seen people kinda dump on Marge Be Not Proud, and Im not sure why? It's one of my all-time favourite episodes. I think most of the criticism comes from Marge seeming too cold, but I never read it as that, she's just having a crisis of confidence about how she should mother Bart. I think it's a pretty realistic take on parenting and modern childhood desires, and I always liked Bart when he wasn't exactly being malicious when acting out. Also, I know Lawrence Tierney was pretty much universally described as a nightmare to work with, but his part in this episode is an example of a guest star being used just right, imo. I was scared of authority figures just like Don Brodka as a kid. MARGE IS LISA AT CAMP GRANADA?
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Apr 29, 2023 15:04
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Bart actually being a thief doesn’t fit his character. He’s rude (the joke of Bart) but Bart and The Simpsons aren’t really supposed to do inherently wrong things beyond harmless pranks. Even the worst examples are like when he shoots the bird in Bart the Mother, he tries to aim away to intentionally miss.
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Apr 29, 2023 15:10
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Toxic Mental posted:Bart actually being a thief doesn’t fit his character. He’s rude (the joke of Bart) but Bart and The Simpsons aren’t really supposed to do inherently wrong things beyond harmless pranks. Even the worst examples are like when he shoots the bird in Bart the Mother, he tries to aim away to intentionally miss. Eh, thing is the episode leans into that, his shoplifting is a pressured and premeditated act without the confidence and success of his usual acts. It's not really in character for him, and it shows. His lack of confidence is basically the whole point of the episode, where he struggles to accomplish things good and bad.
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Apr 29, 2023 15:16
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Toxic Mental posted:Bart actually being a thief doesn’t fit his character. He’s rude (the joke of Bart) but Bart and The Simpsons aren’t really supposed to do inherently wrong things beyond harmless pranks. Even the worst examples are like when he shoots the bird in Bart the Mother, he tries to aim away to intentionally miss. I think I sympathised because I remember the first time I stole something - I stole a handful of sweets from a newsagent's in a spur of the moment thing after seeing some other kids do the same and felt terrible afterwards, wondering why I did it. It's not quite on the same level as a video game, granted, but as a child of the 90s I also knew what it was like to really want something like a video game and not be able to get it due to parents and/or money (and feeling really let down when all the rental copies were gone at Blockbuster!). I know I considered stealing bigger things out of "desperation" as a kid. I agree overall though, I never liked it when they leaned towards making Bart actively malicious, which they definitely started doing more and more after season 10. Even earlier on, The Itchy and Scratchy Movie is a great episode, but I never felt comfortable with the "Show me where Bart put the fireworks" gag, and I was even more astounded when I first watched it on DVD and saw the bit with the knife hidden inside the Krusty doll, as that bit was usually cut on British TV. I think stealing a video game is much milder than that, which is probably why I forgive it a lot easier. After all, shoplifting is a victimless crime, like punching somebody in the dark. Hedgehog Pie fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Apr 29, 2023 |
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Apr 29, 2023 15:19
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Yeah, the only victim is Moe!
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Apr 29, 2023 15:27
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Hedgehog Pie posted:It's one of my all-time favourite episodes. I think most of the criticism comes from Marge seeming too cold, but I never read it as that, she's just having a crisis of confidence about how she should mother Bart. I think it's a pretty realistic take on parenting and modern childhood desires, and I always liked Bart when he wasn't exactly being malicious when acting out. Also, I know Lawrence Tierney was pretty much universally described as a nightmare to work with, but his part in this episode is an example of a guest star being used just right, imo. I was scared of authority figures just like Don Brodka as a kid. Yeah it’s a great ep. I heard somewhere that the show sent a driver to bring Tierney to the recording session and after arriving the driver took the producer aside and said he didn’t know how Tierney was getting home because he absolutely was not riding back with the driver. I think he left out the details but made it clear he had said or done something way over the line. He’s excellent in Reservoir Dogs but Tarantino did not have a fun time. It made it on screen in the diner when the gang stands up after Tierney had dialogue and Tarantino’s character does a quick expression of “finally!!” that is a bit out of place, and the reason was Tierney had forgotten his lines over and over and had just given a usable take.
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Apr 29, 2023 16:00
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Sentient Data posted:It's too mushy, it would have been a lot easier to understand as a joke if it was more like "And now to our traffic segment, John in the Sky" then cut to a shot that has a lower third with John Pye's name nice and large. As it stands, it just seems like it was written to be a mildly Seussian rhyme There's a lot of weird, kinda sweaty name jokes from early Simpsons. Like Ms Krabappel being "crab apple". Arnie Pye is similar
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Apr 29, 2023 16:18
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I watched Homer Goes To Prep School yesterday, and I was shocked by how Family Guy-esque the humor felt. Also, I will never get used to how lifeless the animation is now.
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Apr 29, 2023 16:23
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Bart is routinely physically abused by his father, and is actually a smart, seemingly gifted kid that languishes in a where his teacher and principle hate him, and some people hold it against him that stealing from a WalMart (while still struggling with the ethical implications) is going to far? The fact that it is out of character shows how much poo poo the audience is conditioned to think Bart should take, with his only outlet being small pranks and smart-rear end remarks.
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Apr 29, 2023 16:37
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the joke is that the obvious thing to do is call it "Pye in the Sky" because "Pie in the Sky" is an idiom, and the fact that their helicopter pilot is blessed with a name perfect for wordplay makes you think the tv producers would do it but the writers have the news program do the unexpected thing to make it "Arnie in the Sky" because Springfield is a funny town full of dummies
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Apr 29, 2023 16:43
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Greg12 posted:the joke is that the obvious thing to do is call it "Pye in the Sky" because "Pie in the Sky" is an idiom, and the fact that their helicopter pilot is blessed with a name perfect for wordplay makes you think the tv producers would do it  I can't believe I never realized this
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Apr 29, 2023 17:20
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It's not exactly exclusive to the Simpsons, just lol people used to care so much about shoplifting.
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Apr 29, 2023 19:20
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Eh, thing is the episode leans into that, his shoplifting is a pressured and premeditated act without the confidence and success of his usual acts. It's not really in character for him, and it shows. His lack of confidence is basically the whole point of the episode, where he struggles to accomplish things good and bad. Hedgehog Pie posted:I agree overall though, I never liked it when they leaned towards making Bart actively malicious, which they definitely started doing more and more after season 10. Even earlier on, The Itchy and Scratchy Movie is a great episode, but I never felt comfortable with the "Show me where Bart put the fireworks" gag, and I was even more astounded when I first watched it on DVD and saw the bit with the knife hidden inside the Krusty doll, as that bit was usually cut on British TV. I think stealing a video game is much milder than that, which is probably why I forgive it a lot easier. After all, shoplifting is a victimless crime, like punching somebody in the dark. I forget which producer said it during some Q&A I watched, but they talked a lot about The Simpsons and their character in those early seasons and the main point was that The Simpsons aren't evil and don't hurt others. They fight amongst each other because it's their family dynamic but they don't ever do outwardly, premeditated and intentionally lasting malice or harm to society, and that was one of the "rules" of the show at the time. This episode breaks that rule and there's something tonally weird about it. Bart's better angels almost always win and chooses harm reduction over revenge or inaction when faced with moral choices. I think this is also why him destroying Lisa's giant tomato on Skinner's rear end has always felt weird to me as well, funny as it is.
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Apr 29, 2023 19:54
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Toxic Mental posted:I forget which producer said it during some Q&A I watched, but they talked a lot about The Simpsons and their character in those early seasons and the main point was that The Simpsons aren't evil and don't hurt others. They fight amongst each other because it's their family dynamic but they don't ever do outwardly, premeditated and intentionally lasting malice or harm to society, and that was one of the "rules" of the show at the time. This episode breaks that rule and there's something tonally weird about it. Bart's better angels almost always win and chooses harm reduction over revenge or inaction when faced with moral choices. I think this is also why him destroying Lisa's giant tomato on Skinner's rear end has always felt weird to me as well, funny as it is. How do you feel about Homer stealing cable? It's done in the name of a morality tale as well but it's definitely theft in the same vein as Bart (trying to) steal Bonestorm. You might be able to argue that it was the dodgy electrician who talked him into it, but I think it's hard to say that Homer didn't know what he was doing was wrong.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:01
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Same way to be honest, and I think that's one of the weaker, though very famous? early episodes. I think the difference there is that the main reason it's considered "bad" in that episode is that it's un-Christian as the primary reason, so it's hard to feel like the other side is in the right, that's why it kind of gets a pass.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:06
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Toxic Mental posted:I forget which producer said it during some Q&A I watched, but they talked a lot about The Simpsons and their character in those early seasons and the main point was that The Simpsons aren't evil and don't hurt others. They fight amongst each other because it's their family dynamic but they don't ever do outwardly, premeditated and intentionally lasting malice or harm to society, and that was one of the "rules" of the show at the time. This episode breaks that rule and there's something tonally weird about it. Bart's better angels almost always win and chooses harm reduction over revenge or inaction when faced with moral choices. I think this is also why him destroying Lisa's giant tomato on Skinner's rear end has always felt weird to me as well, funny as it is. Sort of a weird take TBH. They make a point to show that Bart was peer-pressured into doing it, doesn't feel comfortable in the act, and feels guilty about it. They directly contrast his inner struggle and the fact that at his core he's a good person against the bullies who just ruthlessly do what they want, and Gavin, the spoiled brat.
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Apr 29, 2023 20:40
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The problem is that it was sad and hard to watch and I just wanted to unwind at 4:30 and 5:00 after a cruddy day in 5th grade 
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Apr 29, 2023 20:44
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drat we had to wait until 7:00 and 7:30 here, you had it easy
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Apr 29, 2023 20:48
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Hyrax Attack! posted:Oh yeah I loved their brutal treatment of Dick Cavett for no reason, like when Steve Sax or Luke Perry got roasted, especially compared to the celebrity worship of later seasons. Wow, they're really socking it to that Spiro Agnew guy again! He must work there or something.
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Apr 29, 2023 22:22
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i never found arnie pye(or pie) particularly funny...except that one instance where he's following homer (who stole a police van with a bunch of springfield elementary kids inside) after he crashes into a tree and when kent brockman asks him if the kids are okay and he goes "I can't see through metal, KENT!" the delivery on that line, with absolute seething contempt towards kent was perfect
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Apr 30, 2023 02:00
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The episodes where Bart is either accidentally bad or immediately regrets and wants to make amends does tend to treat him worse. I think the worst example is an episode where Bart messes up in a sport, leading to the town hating him, but it turns him depressed and near suicidal in a really non-comedic way.
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Apr 30, 2023 04:02
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Mr Interweb posted:i never found arnie pye(or pie) particularly funny...except that one instance where he's following homer (who stole a police van with a bunch of springfield elementary kids inside) after he crashes into a tree and when kent brockman asks him if the kids are okay and he goes "I can't see through metal, KENT!" Those monkeys seem confused and irritable.
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Apr 30, 2023 04:48
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bobjr posted:The episodes where Bart is either accidentally bad or immediately regrets and wants to make amends does tend to treat him worse. yeah...that was a pretty bad one too. and we already talked about it, but the one with bart accidentally destroying the christmas presents is up there as well Mr Interweb fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Apr 30, 2023 |
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Apr 30, 2023 05:59
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Capital Letdown posted:Can I ask - I've seen people kinda dump on Marge Be Not Proud, and Im not sure why? "Marge? Is Lisa at Camp Granada?" is an all-time banger and anyone who disagrees needs to get out of this thread
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Apr 30, 2023 06:40
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it kinda veers into 'very special episode' territory
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Apr 30, 2023 07:03
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Mr Interweb posted:yeah...that was a pretty bad one too. and we already talked about it, but the one with bart accidentally destroying the christmas presents is up there as well Right? That episode has some decent jokes but it ends with The Simpsons and Bart in particular getting punished + robbed by the entire town when they didn't really anything to earn it. Well, maybe Homer, but drat is it mean spirited. A lot of that era was cruel .
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Apr 30, 2023 07:30
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Toxic Mental posted:I forget which producer said it during some Q&A I watched, but they talked a lot about The Simpsons and their character in those early seasons and the main point was that The Simpsons aren't evil and don't hurt others. They fight amongst each other because it's their family dynamic but they don't ever do outwardly, premeditated and intentionally lasting malice or harm to society, and that was one of the "rules" of the show at the time. This episode breaks that rule and there's something tonally weird about it. Bart's better angels almost always win and chooses harm reduction over revenge or inaction when faced with moral choices. I think this is also why him destroying Lisa's giant tomato on Skinner's rear end has always felt weird to me as well, funny as it is. Not sure I buy that they only fight amongst themselves in the good episodes. Bart is definitely mean to Skinner, Milhouse, etc., as is Homer to Ned. Maybe those don’t cause “intentionally lasting harm to society”, but of course neither does shoplifting.
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Apr 30, 2023 09:19
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Bart also actively vandalises a lot, which if anything gets played down/forgotten about in later seasons. Though a lot comes down to that one where Bart initially gets blamed for what turns out to be Santa's Little Helper on the rampage; Bart sees his pranks as a form of commentary or defiance, and doesn't really do them without a reason. Going to ridiculous, impressive lengths to prank Skinner is his rebellion against immediate authority, while picking on Milhouse is mostly proving his perceived superiority. Or maybe just because Milhouse is the funniest target. He's a little terror but he believes in doing it with style. Which also makes sense considering Bart gets away with his pranks mostly when it's funnier. Also 90s American attitudes about stealing and piracy are pretty lol especially from a modern perspective. Remember Bart was considered a bad influence because he only sometimes called adults 'sir'.
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Apr 30, 2023 09:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Bart also actively vandalises a lot, which if anything gets played down/forgotten about in later seasons. Looking for an El Barto tag in an establishing shot was always fun
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Apr 30, 2023 10:35
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spaceblancmange posted:it kinda veers into 'very special episode' territory But even then there are good jokes, like "there'll be no Cajun Sausage for little Homer".
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Apr 30, 2023 10:42
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I feel like there's more of a theme that, unlike the cable stealing episode where there's not shown to be any real downside or consequences (besides Bart losing his mind) the shoplifting is actually shown pretty realistically- Bart isn't used to it compared to the older bullies, and his inexperience gets him caught- especially since he's stealing a high-value item that of course the security cameras and guards would pay special attention to, and make an example of to discourage others. Apparently Lawrence Tierney was the craziest guest star they ever had at that point and refused to perform a lot of his intended lines because he didn't get the jokes. Also while it's a classic joke for Marge to get the wrong game because she listened credulously to store advice like all our goddamn parents, apparently there's an interpretation that she got it on purpose as a mild punishment for Bart- that she's forgiven him but isn't going to completely rescind the consequences. Would also be funny if it was giving him a taste of his own medicine with the bait-and-switch.
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Apr 30, 2023 11:33
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I'm pretty sure stealing is still considered a bad thing and harmful to society
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Apr 30, 2023 13:24
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Toxic Mental posted:I'm pretty sure stealing is still considered a bad thing and harmful to society Only by dorks
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Apr 30, 2023 16:10
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Toxic Mental posted:I'm pretty sure stealing is still considered a bad thing and harmful to society yeah that's what society wants you to think
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Apr 30, 2023 16:19
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Sentient Data posted:The problem is that it was sad and hard to watch and I just wanted to unwind at 4:30 and 5:00 after a cruddy day in 5th grade drat this might be my reason
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Apr 30, 2023 17:17
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The show goes for some real gut punches with Bart and Lisa, but I think with Lisa, the tone is ultimately hopeful, while with Bart, you get the sense things just aren't going to get better for him. When Lisa is depressed in Moaning Lisa, it's definitely an affecting episode, and when Marge breaks her deeply ingrained "Just smile through it!" worldview to stand by her daughter and tell her it's okay to be sad, you can really believe that Lisa will get through this. With her family's support, things can get better for her. But when Bart's caught in an emotional struggle after shoplifting or selling his soul, the happy ending feels more like a short-term bright point. I've got a soft spot for the lizard episode, partly because it ends on a string of killer jokes ("Did you know they could fly?" "Yes, but I was hoping they didn't know that" to "Wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes!"), but Bart's "Everyone says they're monsters, but I love them" really feels like that's always going to be Marge and Bart's relationship. You don't have a feeling that Bart's going to reach some point of stability once he's found an environment that doesn't try to crush him, he's going to be struggling the rest of his life. I think the future episodes really underscore this. Once Lisa can get away from Springfield, she can really succeed—but her challenge is that she's not willing to let go of being a Simpson. Bart, on the other hand, is destined to be a burnout or a bum. The most optimistic future for him is Lisa's Wedding, where he's basically Homer. Every other future paints him a lot worse off. And that really sucks! Bart's a sweet kid, he genuinely has a strong moral core when it comes down to it, and he's shown his capable side whenever he teams up with Skinner or foils Sideshow Bob or convinces Rabbi Krustofsky that an entertainer has a place in the Jewish tradition. We want him to succeed, just like Lisa, but we know it's a very long shot. And he's only ten! Which gives every emotional ending a real bittersweet tinge.
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Apr 30, 2023 18:21
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Bart becomes Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, i think you'll find
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Apr 30, 2023 18:42
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I guess with the nature of Simpsons where the writers grew up on the show, they thought Bart was the cool kid, the obvious subversion to that is to show how most of the things that makes Bart cool as a kid will go against him later in life (assuming that he picks up literally nothing later in life, which I guess he needs to remain about the same in order to stay recognizably Bart), as opposed to how Lisa is often the vessel for their personal self-fulfillment, either benefiting from being a lonely nerd later in life or just directly living out the dreams of a middle-aged adult despite being 8. There's been so many episodes of Bart being a little poo poo that it gets harder and harder to take his penance seriously in the sad Bart episodes. Maybe he only means to mildly torment people instead of doing harm, but he is dumb as hell and regularly doesn't care to think out consequences, so it's never really a surprise when he does do harm.
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Apr 30, 2023 18:55
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Lisa strikes me as the type to burn right the gently caress out by the time she hits college. Of course, if she still manages to become the first straight female President, the Simpsons are set to become the new Kennedies.
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Apr 30, 2023 19:05
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Conservative Justice Bart writes argument : lol eat my shorts sis.
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Apr 30, 2023 20:19
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