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the sad part is that if someone made a good online game with black desert combat i'd play, but instead we either get a modern mmo that's also an insane grind and a gacha nightmare or a mmo with poo poo combat from dialup era like ff14
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May 3, 2023 14:07
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For those of us who want an experience like UO or SWG (which feel very similar to me) the term "MMO" has departed so far from those original concepts that a new game in the vein would need to be called something else entirely. Give me a game with a big-rear end world, serviceable combat, and lots of non-combat activities to partake in that are equal in richness to combat, and keep your raids and gear treadmills. Call it something like a "living world game" and I will play it for the rest of eternity.
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May 3, 2023 14:32
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kedo posted:For those of us who want an experience like UO or SWG (which feel very similar to me) the term "MMO" has departed so far from those original concepts that a new game in the vein would need to be called something else entirely. https://secondlife.com/
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May 3, 2023 14:37
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didn't play SWG, but while UO was fine for the time, for me it immediately got supplanted by real games where i didn't have to chop trees for 2 months to build up enough strength to be able to wrestle a dog e: i did like how eve-o did away with that by just having you train skills while offline. it was the same gameplay, i just didn't have to write injection scripts for it 
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May 3, 2023 14:37
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Truga posted:the sad part is that if someone made a good online game with black desert combat i'd play, but instead we either get a modern mmo that's also an insane grind and a gacha nightmare or a mmo with poo poo combat from dialup era like ff14 This is my concern when seeing all the Ashes of Creation combat videos recently. The combat looks like something you'd see in eq2.
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May 3, 2023 14:59
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i had fun back in UO killing people with niche skills like tinkering. doubt there'd be quite as many marks getting themselves exploded for an empty chest in the wiki age but there's always a few.
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May 3, 2023 15:01
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A game like SWG would be great but I'm not sure how that would work nowadays. It's essentially a game about networking, and in the modern day that is mostly done by offsites like Reddit that have designated high level crafters rather than word of mouth. You'd have to bring back experimentation for reusable custom blueprints that have a high degree of improvement over base materials to make you stand out, or undercut the competition harshly. It feels bad to work hard on something that no one ends up wanting and not being able to sell it, and that's forbidden in modern game design. The clearest example would be something like EVE Online where basically every item is a consumable, but that's also still done through market boards, not salesmanship. It's also partially an issue that my fantasy anime mmo dreams of being a world renowned blacksmith are dashed by the fact that you can't really be "good" at crafting. You can luck into good materials or blueprints, you can get good at manipulating the stat rolls, but that mostly comes down to luck and reading math heavy guides. What you end up making is functionally the same as everyone else. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 15:17 on May 3, 2023 |
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May 3, 2023 15:12
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kedo posted:For those of us who want an experience like UO or SWG (which feel very similar to me) the term "MMO" has departed so far from those original concepts that a new game in the vein would need to be called something else entirely. To me, MMO and the games around it are kind of split up Old school MMO: EQ (Classic to POP), Ultima Online, AC, DAOC. Your looking at a big world, the only instances are server based (or single server like EvE). The tech for these games scales fairly well and many revolved around large scale events. 2nd Gen MMOs: Instance, smaller world in terms of where the population wants to be, not in terms of giant but useless zones, Expansions are built into the model and looking back to old content is meh. This is where treadmills became ultra popular as everyone copied WoW. Earlier games often tried to do gear side grades or at least keep old gear relevant. 3rd Gen: Crapware - We get non stop clones with a few trying to relive the old school MMOs. The money needed to make those first gen games does not exist, the player base is to small, players have to many options for gaming now. 4th Gen: I assume Single Mega server, stuff based on Japanese isekai perhaps, but also instance activity, player housing, Solo AND group content, With both combat, market, and non combat roles. Possibly also going back to emergent gameplay (give a bunch of tools and see what players do and exploite) Of course 4th gen stuff wont be happening till someone other then Square makes a better wow clone. New World "Tried" to be 4th gen. But I don't think we're getting that any time soon as the tech has not caught up to the dreams.
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May 3, 2023 15:38
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the "tech" for all of that already existed in MUD days, the only driver behind whether it happens or not is profit, op
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May 3, 2023 15:45
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I hear you, but no.
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May 3, 2023 15:50
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PyRosflam posted:
This annoys me so much. Why does this weird nerd isekai fantasy need to be the 4th generation? Why are MMO's the only video game genre that constantly demands ground breaking, revolutionary new tech? People will happily spend $30 for a reskinned metroidvania with nice art and solid gameplay, $60 for the next Bethesda RPG, with mildly updated graphics and a 30 year old gameplay loop, or dump tons of cash shop money into Valorant, a reskinned 20 year old game with some fancy abilities. But you better not attempt to make an Everquest-esque game with updated graphics, an interesting world and solid gameplay for sub $10 million dollars in 2023, you wouldn't be able to reach 2009 WoW numbers that way! It's this weird narrative, propagated by places like r/mmorpg and MMO content creators, that any new MMO needs to cost $500 million dollars and be the second coming of Christ. This results in studios attempting to make large MMO's, obviously failing, using predatory mechanics to make the game profitable and dumbing everything down to try to pull in the largest amount of players. It's why games like New World scrapped their original PvP ideas under threat of Jeffy B and ended up with a poorly implemented, uninspired, bad game. Instead of keeping the costs down and making a game that targets a niche audience. This genre will be garbage until studios learn to make more reasonably scaled, well made games and are ok with targeting a small group of people. That way you can actually temper the unreasonable expectations of the playerbase. Luckily, I do think we're starting to see some of that. Albion is a success story of a low budget MMO, Mortal Online 2 seems to be doing ok. Monsters & Memories, a game being made by 15 part time employees, had a fun stress test. Evercraft seems to be coming along. Embers Adrift, while rough, at least delivered something. The larger threat to MMO's ever being "good" again are the giant scoped disasters that are never going to release, Ashes of Creation, Star Citizen, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, etc etc. Games that keep inflating the expectations of the playerbase and fail to actually deliver anything.
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May 3, 2023 17:52
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I agree and....Sir Vanderhosen posted:Monsters & Memories, a game being made by 15 part time employees, had a fun stress test. ...I am super bummed I was unexpectedly gone all weekend and missed the stress test. 
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May 3, 2023 18:11
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kedo posted:I agree and.... It was a lot of fun and I ended up playing for way longer than I planned. I've also never played classic Everquest so i'm not contributing my enjoyment to nostalgia. It was just nice to play a game where it seemed the devs actually care about the world. Also, it was actually playable which is well beyond what I expect from a stress test. I heard some rumblings about there possibly being another at the end of the summer but nothing concrete.
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May 3, 2023 18:22
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I didn't stick with SWG for very long, but the doctor buffs and crafted armor and other non-combat things when I played were just empty numbers in a game full of empty numbers because none of the game mechanics worked or made sense in any way. You could feel cool putting your extra points into doctor or image designer because almost no choice or decision you made in the game could change how successful you were at engaging with any of the game's content. It's not a style of game that could work anymore because WoW made people actually think it was good for the buttons you press to do things and to have like gameplay in the game instead of Brad McQuaid/Raph Koster style visions and ideas. It can't really be overstated how bad the mechanics were. Enemies were unable to target you when you feigned death as a smuggler so the peak of my experience with the game was being a little mon calamari worm wiggling in the dirt who would occasionally rise to his knees to fire off a bleeding shot at a krait dragon before dramatically falling back over onto a space anthill. Nothing in the game was a challenge. I only needed like one line of smuggler traits and half a line of pistol traits and I could have everything else invested into dancer and droid engineering. Any stat buffs or gear on my character didn't matter. I ran around wearing skin tight ballet tights and occasionally a cowboy duster and it made no difference if I had full death penalty black bars or whatever. "Optimal" play wasn't any prettier. A smuggler could push any gun in the game to the attack speed cap via slicing. So you'd grab a rifle, get it sliced, and shoot enemies while prone as a rifleman and they would die before actually noticing they were taking damaging and aggroing on you. If you wanted to tank stuff for some reason you could spec into creature handler to grab 3 wacky space dinosaurs then flag imperial for 2 at-sts for a combined pet health pool 15x higher than any actual player could get. But even trying to min/max at all was pointless because the most fruitful activity in the game was talking to a computer terminal and telling it to spawn a creature nest 50 feet outside the city limits and then walking over and hitting it for a minute while the space bunnies or ewoks that belonged to it waddled around and flailed their limbs watching you destroy their little turd pile home. The crafting was also broken and futile. I played with a guild of mostly crafters so I would go around scanning planets every few days and mine stuff that cycled in with good stats to feed to the guild. But I would never use any of the stuff my guild made because there was some guy on corellia who had metals with broken stats from the first few days of launch that he was able to keep duping and every day or two he'd put a gun up with maxed out stats that no one else could match and once I had one of those I was set. Even trying to pretend the game was a sandbox, the illusion would fade as soon as you swam across the river from theed spaceport and saw the creeping sprawl of player homes with identical soandso's clothing emporium placards next to the door and long abandoned npc vendors idling in undecorated interiors spouting programmed text lines every 30 seconds about how chewbacca ron's space pants were totally pwnzor. The only thing the game let you build was a lumpy sand pile indistinguishable from the 40 other nearby lumpy sand piles left behind by former players who had managed to escape their two month odyssey in the mmo wasteland. Game was bad and sad.
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May 3, 2023 18:29
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Here is a brand new MMORPG to get let down over: https://twitter.com/PlayStation/status/1653777020529131521 Game certainly looks very beautiful, but is probably going to be ultra shallow, and is 5+ years away from actual release.
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May 3, 2023 19:31
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From the gameplay trailer it looks like they want to make a model tracking brawler ie Dark Souls, which is cool but also can very easily fall apart when you have several people attacking an enemy at once.
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May 3, 2023 19:39
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Luckily nobody plays MMOs, so that shouldn't be a problem.
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May 3, 2023 19:44
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it looks like the combat will be fun to play with, which probably means gacha or nightmare grind lmao
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May 3, 2023 19:47
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I doubt the combat or graphics are anything like in that trailer once the game actually releases.
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May 3, 2023 19:56
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jokes posted:Luckily nobody plays MMOs, so that shouldn't be a problem. I log into MMOs, but I can confirm that I don't play them.
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May 3, 2023 20:04
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I said come in! posted:Here is a brand new MMORPG to get let down over: I've never heard of this developer. Let's dig up some information about them: https://wccftech.com/chrono-odyssey-ue5-mmorpg-gets-striking-gameplay-trailer-confirmed-for-pc-consoles/ quote:Chrono Odyssey is the second game developed by NPIXEL. The studio rose to fame in South Korea with the launch of Gran Saga, an anime-style collectible MMORPG available on mobile platforms. NPIXEL has also built a blockchain-based version called Gran Saga: Unlimited, which will run on the Metapixel Web3 ecosystem. However, the developer already confirmed the complete absence of Web3/blockchain elements in Chrono Odyssey. There will NOT be any NFT Crypto poo poo in this new MMO, what a relief....
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May 3, 2023 20:23
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Sir Vanderhosen posted:This annoys me so much. Why does this weird nerd isekai fantasy need to be the 4th generation? Why are MMO's the only video game genre that constantly demands ground breaking, revolutionary new tech? Why does it cost so much? Because every dang studio has to reinvent the back end. No studio makes an MMO engine like they make Unreal. EvE had to invent new tech to allow 200 to 300 players in the same area and that still bogs down super computer blades. If Amazon released the new world engine and some basic assets as an asset pack, along with auto config and auto scale on AWS, we could see all these teams do what they want to do, make assets, art, and game mechanics and not spend an amazing amount of time getting the engine working or taking Unreal and making it work with your game. ya, unless they change something you might get stuck with tab targeting, or new worlds insane idea of making the text window render HTML, but for the most part that stuff should be configurable as would anything from class packs to easy to build zones. Fix this and you can have 20+ games released and a new era of MMO type games. One game can tackle 50 to 100 players in a battleground, perhaps with micro zone tech allowing more then one server to handle the load for a single zone. Some other team could go after the empire vs empire fantasy.
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May 3, 2023 21:02
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PyRosflam posted:Why does it cost so much? Because every dang studio has to reinvent the back end. No studio makes an MMO engine like they make Unreal. EvE had to invent new tech to allow 200 to 300 players in the same area and that still bogs down super computer blades. Yeah, but then you have 20+ games released and they all are competing in the same space, causing them to just die all over again. You would have more projects but MMOs require player dedication and volume of options is the death of that. That being said, if Amazon just made the engine and licensed it without actually making their own game to compete in the market then that would be good for them, but they aren't really in that space at all.
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May 3, 2023 21:08
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yeah, just like with the gaas fad, there's no space for more than a handful successful MMOs because they all go for insane time requirements for some reason i'll say this again, but GW2 is the only game that has the right idea: no subscription so you can pick it up or drop it whenever, and no item level inflation so you can pick it up and drop it whenever. IMO, it's the biggest reason it keeps floating around in that handful succesful MMOs list year after year despite not being backed by big blizz/square cash and even getting actively sabotaged by ncsoft on occasion. because people can pick it (back) up at any time
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May 3, 2023 21:19
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PyRosflam posted:Why does it cost so much? Because every dang studio has to reinvent the back end. No studio makes an MMO engine like they make Unreal. EvE had to invent new tech to allow 200 to 300 players in the same area and that still bogs down super computer blades. Amazon has released the game engine they used for New World, it was rebranded from Lumberyard to O3DE and it's bad https://www.o3de.org/. Netcode is extremely specific to the game you're making, there is no existing catch all solution and I can't see anyone making a good one anytime soon. A lot of companies have tried, Improbable was doing something and then they converted to the "Metaverse" and are making ape mmos. You also have Camelot Unchained, where Mark Jacobs is trying to take the Kickstarter money and create a commercially viable engine. I don't think it's going to work. The closest you're going to get to an off the shelf solution is when people hack up an existing emulated server into something new, like Shards of Dalaya, P99 or any of the 1000 WoW private servers. But you're tied to that specific type of game. Plus, the cost isn't from just the MMO backend. The cost is from the MMO backend plus the massive world, the action combat, the 100v100 battles, etc. Elden Ring, not an MMO, that has the style of combat and world people constantly ask for in a MMO, cost $200 million. That's the money you pay for the animations, the environments, the models etc etc. Now you add on the insane task of trying to get that feeling good in an MMO with any reasonable amount of people and now you're getting into that half a billion dollars range. When I mentioned Everquest-esque, it's because the networking is relatively "easy". It's still non-trivial and a lot of people mess it up but the slower combat allows for a lot more wiggle room in the backend. The costs for that type of game are already way down, because of engines like Unity, Unreal and cloud solutions like AWS. You no longer need to spin up a box in your basement and have someone manage that. The fact that we're not seeing more Everquest style clones is, in my opinion, because everyone is afraid to make them due to the majority of the MMO base clamoring for "The Elden RIng MMO", something that's not going to happen any time soon.
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May 3, 2023 21:39
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Truga posted:yeah, just like with the gaas fad, there's no space for more than a handful successful MMOs because they all go for insane time requirements for some reason Man, I should try GW2. Is it still getting updated? I bought it at launch but it might be better to just buy a new license at this point. Amazon *tried* this with New World where it was a B2P and low level characters could still contribute to the game but you still ran into the issue of it being a grind for high level items and also it suffered a worse economic collapse than post WW1 Germany several times over.
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May 3, 2023 21:47
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there's no reason to make a new account. in fact, play on your old one you'll have a ton of birthday gifts waiting for you on your each of your 10 year old characters and they put some very nice dyes in those also i'll admit that gw2 isn't for everyone because the combat content can often feel jank, especially on older maps, but them not having a sub or a gear treadmill is just flat out amazing
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May 3, 2023 21:56
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They don't just have nice dyes, they also have a ton of goodies and unlocks!
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May 3, 2023 22:00
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PyRosflam posted:Why does it cost so much? Because every dang studio has to reinvent the back end. No studio makes an MMO engine like they make Unreal. EvE had to invent new tech to allow 200 to 300 players in the same area and that still bogs down super computer blades. agreed, let a thousand new worlds bloom. it'll be funny if nothing else
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May 3, 2023 22:00
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Jazerus posted:agreed, let a thousand new worlds bloom. it'll be funny if nothing else I mean, we will be seeing the release of Perfect New World in 2023 supposedly.
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May 3, 2023 22:11
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Jazerus posted:agreed, let a thousand new worlds bloom. it'll be funny if nothing else I mean end of the day there is a standard set of features all MMOs want, but who am I kidding, most people will make clones and crapware.
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May 3, 2023 22:35
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I thought swtor used an off the shelf mmo engine
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May 4, 2023 01:39
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The forums for Lost Ark and New World are getting shutdown and replaced with Discord channels.
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May 4, 2023 02:14
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doomisland posted:I thought swtor used an off the shelf mmo engine SWTOR and ESO both use Hero Engine, though I am not sure if they are the same version or are heavily modified.
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May 4, 2023 02:16
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OhFunny posted:The forums for Lost Ark and New World are getting shutdown and replaced with Discord channels. I thought this was a joke but no they are actually doing this. Jesus christ, Discord is not a forum you braindead idiots.
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May 4, 2023 04:17
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CuddleCryptid posted:I thought this was a joke but no they are actually doing this. Jesus christ, Discord is not a forum you braindead idiots. That’s probably exactly why they’re doing it.
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May 4, 2023 04:49
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Every year the old internet fades further and further away. I bet they love not having to pay mods and community managers, just have the volunteers deal with all of that.
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May 4, 2023 05:27
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CuddleCryptid posted:I thought this was a joke but no they are actually doing this. Jesus christ, Discord is not a forum you braindead idiots. Glad I stopped playing both of those games a week after they came out
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May 4, 2023 05:45
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Yesterday I bought BLOOD for 9$ and was just about to buy FFVIII for 6$ but something stayed my hand, so now I have 6$ BLOOD is a great game though, I regert nothing Next I think I will buy Halflife
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May 4, 2023 07:52
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Ruggan posted:That’s probably exactly why they’re doing it. For better or worse, forums are functionally a dead medium to anyone under the age of 28, and even subreddits for wildly popular games rarely get posts with even the modest level of engagement most of our threads get. I browse the League subreddit from time to time, and the feed is an almost constant stream of complaints, self-promotion, and simple questions with 0-3 responses at best, with only big ticket community issues, news about the game, or viral memes getting any kind of traction. Zoomers vastly prefer the speed of something like Discord when it comes to holding conversations.
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