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TheWorldsaStage posted:Calm down Jesus, you're always so aggro every time you post. The only person mad is you I'm sorry I'm just absolutely tired of the passive aggressive crying about the Fandom making a character into their wooby or thinking their hot or ships them as a deflection when people don't post sufficiently negatively about characters that have done bad things in story. We had years of it anytime Emet-Selch came up in this and the last thread and Yotsuyu or almost anyone else for even longer than that. It just sucks. It's not a criticism of the writing or even an accurate one about the fandom it just reads like you're mad people don't hate/like a character as much as you do. Which, especially in this case, is extra weird because the fandom online basically treats the characters of Fordola and Nero the same in broads strokes outside of a few weirdos that get extremely weird about either of them. There's so much goddamn fan art and writing of Fordola out there, especially a lot of sympathetic. The difference is a lot if it is lesbian artists liking this struggling and lost lady and the Nero stuff is usually jokes because he's framed as a weirdo smug rear end in a top hat since 2.0 where his ultimate confrontation is him going "No I'm daddy's smartest special boy" and then showing up in a mask to get you to open a big crystal tower for him. Your point was a bizarre non sequitur that didn't even fit the comparison. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 4, 2023 |
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May 3, 2023 23:12
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I don't know why anyone.playing ffxiv would expect the heroes to execute prisoners Like it's a pretty big misread of the games tone. Retributive justice against people who are not actively trying to stab you is not a thing
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May 3, 2023 23:23
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Yeah FFXIV is very much on the viewpoint that the ideal outcome isn't execution, it is working towards redemption. It also is very blunt about the fact that people can be victims of trauma and tragedy and even if they refuse to stop it can still be sad because many of them are heroes in their own story. The only really irredeemable people are those who seek no redemption.
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May 4, 2023 00:01
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Vermain posted:aside from the actual storyline, it's kind of poor form to spend an entire previous expansion extolling the virtues of forgiveness and the need to move on from the sins of the past to then do a 180' and propose mass reprisals because the bad guys are fascists and not fantasy elves/dragons I, uh, skipped a lot of HW cutscenes too, but I thought the feud there was some Hatfield-McCoy and/or species war where the animosity wasn't based on anything legitimate and that would be pretty different from the enemy actually being fascists. Thanks to all for the explanations of what I missed though.
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May 4, 2023 00:21
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TheWorldsaStage posted:Can you be less aggro please? Especially if they're different genders. Seriously, every time you have a question about 'why does the fandom treat X character badly but Y character with exactly the same or perhaps worse crimes just fine', check their genders and you'll have anywhere from 30% to 100% of your answer right there. (But don't tell them that, they'll get very mad if you imply they might be sexist for all their baseless and hypocritical rage at Lyse.)
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May 4, 2023 00:24
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SuperKlaus posted:I, uh, skipped a lot of HW cutscenes too, but I thought the feud there was some Hatfield-McCoy and/or species war where the animosity wasn't based on anything legitimate You might want to watch those cutscenes!
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May 4, 2023 00:28
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SuperKlaus posted:I, uh, skipped a lot of HW cutscenes too, but I thought the feud there was some Hatfield-McCoy and/or species war where the animosity wasn't based on anything legitimate and that would be pretty different from the enemy actually being fascists. Thordan I killed Nidhogg's sister and since dragons are extremely more long lived than mortals, he was still freshly holding that grudge, while a thousand years had passed and to mortals, the events were nothing but ancient history
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May 4, 2023 00:42
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SuperKlaus posted:I, uh, skipped a lot of HW cutscenes too, but I thought the feud there was some Hatfield-McCoy and/or species war where the animosity wasn't based on anything legitimate and that would be pretty different from the enemy actually being fascists. I skipped majority of the games cutscenes, but that's not going to stop me from complaining about the story not making sense!
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May 4, 2023 00:44
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SuperKlaus posted:I, uh, skipped a lot of HW cutscenes too, but I thought the feud there was some Hatfield-McCoy and/or species war where the animosity wasn't based on anything legitimate and that would be pretty different from the enemy actually being fascists. I'm not sure "killing your sister and eating her eyeballs, then telling their family that you're just jealous of how cool they are and they didn't do anything" is illegitimate. Killing Nidhogg (who would accept nothing less than an endless torture forever-war) was part of the path forward, but the other part was Ishgardians acknowledging their kingdom's sins and trying to make it right.
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May 4, 2023 01:13
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The game kind of goes out of its way to provide at least the tiniest shred of relatability or sympathetic reasoning to its antagonists, including the ones that are ultimately killed off. It is usually presented as a necessary act but tragic that they couldn't be redeemed. Except Thordan and Asahi. gently caress those guys. (and Ascians that got killed off prior to ShB, since they were all basically mustache-twirling evil wizards without context)
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May 4, 2023 02:25
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The most Thordan gets is acknowledgement that Nidhogg's grief doesn't really justify an eternal hellwar that by his own design is only going to end with genocide and that even if the war ends it's not really going to end for a lot of people.
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May 4, 2023 02:46
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SuperKlaus posted:I, uh, skipped a lot of HW cutscenes too, but I thought the feud there was some Hatfield-McCoy and/or species war where the animosity wasn't based on anything legitimate and that would be pretty different from the enemy actually being fascists. lmao rip
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May 4, 2023 07:24
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You know, sometimes I do want to see what someone who's skipped all the cutscenes actually thinks the story is like, and these occasional glimpses like this only make me want it more. Becuase I never would've expected an assumption like SuperKlaus', I at least feel like genre tropes would've led to me getting closer on Heavensward. To a cutscene-skipper Shadowbringers must have major Necron-style 'incongruous end boss out of nowhere' vibes going on.
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May 4, 2023 07:33
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Cleretic posted:To a cutscene-skipper Shadowbringers must have major Necron-style 'incongruous end boss out of nowhere' vibes going on. i can imagine someone skipping the Amaurot initial reveal of the city cutscene being VERY confused immediately after
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May 4, 2023 08:03
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Imagining a Warrior of Light stumbling their way through the end of days like Mr. Bean in a bikini and moogle mask
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May 4, 2023 08:07
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"What is the bare minimum you absorb about the plot of FF14 if you come in with no knowledge, skip every cutscene, and maybe don't read the text boxes all that attentively" would be an amazing experiment
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May 4, 2023 08:14
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Like the whole tragedy of Fordola is that the brutal fascist invaders are convincing the oppressed that the only way forward is to join them in pillaging their own homeland and fighting their own people, also that they deserve this and should be grateful that it's happening. Her actions also fueled by the wrongs committed against her and hers by those very people. Looking at the weaponized magically tormented self-loathing prisoner locked in a cell and thinking "Man they should totally kill her because she did bad things" is... something. I'm not saying Gaius got off easy or anything, but there sure seem to be way fewer people baying for his blood.
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May 4, 2023 08:25
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Antivehicular posted:"What is the bare minimum you absorb about the plot of FF14 if you come in with no knowledge, skip every cutscene, and maybe don't read the text boxes all that attentively" would be an amazing experiment I am v slowly learning the plot but my knowledge of future events is that you marry a catboy made of diamonds and go to the moon.
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May 4, 2023 08:48
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Tbf Fordola doesn’t seem that grateful.
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May 4, 2023 08:52
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Fordola has, on numerous occasions, opined that she would rather be executed than continue living in the hell she made for herself. Every interaction is torment, every day is confinement, and she has no idea how to atone for her crimes, or if it's even possible. Getting to go out and fight Primals is just a way to die, but her soldier's reflexes won't let her take the coward's way out so she fights and survives with Arenvald as her jailor. She takes no joy in victory, no satisfaction from the fight, just the cruel understanding that she'll have to do it again and again until she finally faces a Primal too strong for her and then and only then will she be granted release.
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May 4, 2023 09:25
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But more importantly she’s cool and a good character.
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May 4, 2023 09:42
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by the end of the game you are best buds with a guy who was space hitler for thousands of years and knowingly orchestrated the circumstances that led to many many people like Fordola becoming twisted and grotesque. One of his last lines is a lovably snarky remark about how long and arduous his vigil was or whatever and people get hung up on Fordola being painted ambiguously in the marketing lol
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May 4, 2023 13:25
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GloomMouse posted:Like the whole tragedy of Fordola is that the brutal fascist invaders are convincing the oppressed that the only way forward is to join them in pillaging their own homeland and fighting their own people, also that they deserve this and should be grateful that it's happening. Her actions also fueled by the wrongs committed against her and hers by those very people. Looking at the weaponized magically tormented self-loathing prisoner locked in a cell and thinking "Man they should totally kill her because she did bad things" is... something. I'm not saying Gaius got off easy or anything, but there sure seem to be way fewer people baying for his blood. I don't think Fordola needs the guillotine but I assure you there was a whole Thing when it was clear the writers decided Gaius was going to be a sexy sad dad now. People wrote Words.
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May 4, 2023 14:18
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also gaius got turned into a sad dad so he's better(?) now efb
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May 4, 2023 14:19
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i think the big difference is that emet is basically a timeless demigod and the WoL becomes friends with his purified force ghost who helps save all of existence multiple times. fordola is a mortal with a regular human life, and her crime is basically being a class traitor par excellence. Like, Fordola's actions are basically those of a fictional human, but Emet's actions are on a scale that you can't really judge by human standards--he's more like the Heavensward dragons, a fantastical and impossible creature. i like all the stupid sad tragic sexy characters. they're good
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May 4, 2023 14:21
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Every villain should have a sad dad redemption arc. They’re always good. You could give one to Vauthry or Asahi and it’d probably work
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May 4, 2023 14:24
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Cleretic posted:Especially if they're different genders. This is only true if you selectively ignore all the times this happened with male characters. Like Gaius for whom the Discourse still occasionally haunts this thread.
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May 4, 2023 14:26
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I'm kind of amazed that they have a NPC in the Weapon arc who literally tells you that if Gaius starts any poo poo again he'll put him down and then people will think "ah, this character, spending every waking moment fighting to preserve the safety of the world in the same cause as us, consumed by endless guilt, in this setting with enormous themes about offering redemption and avoiding cycles of hate... they got off too easily." But then again humans are never very good at grey morality when keeping absolute score cards is so much easier and satisfying.
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May 4, 2023 14:28
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And he clearly states it was NOT his intention.
Saint Freak fucked around with this message at 14:37 on May 4, 2023 |
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May 4, 2023 14:35
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Doomykins posted:I'm kind of amazed that they have a NPC in the Weapon arc who literally tells you that if Gaius starts any poo poo again he'll put him down and then people will think "ah, this character, spending every waking moment fighting to preserve the safety of the world in the same cause as us, consumed by endless guilt, in this setting with enormous themes about offering redemption and avoiding cycles of hate... they got off too easily." Some people seem to think redemption is invalid if you ever experience a moment of comfort or happiness.
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May 4, 2023 14:36
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ImpAtom posted:Some people seem to think redemption is invalid if you ever experience a moment of comfort or happiness. Like Fordola. That's basically how she views her own arc.
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May 4, 2023 14:38
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Chillgamesh posted:Every villain should have a sad dad redemption arc. They’re always good. You could give one to Vauthry or Asahi and it’d probably work Asahi is such an incredible rear end in a top hat in all respects that I don't think a redemption arc is realistically possible. Even his final cameo isn't an attempt at redeeming him, just a reminder of how much of a little poo poo he is (just in a way that brings some needed closure to somebody else's story). I don't think Vauthry can be redeemed in a believable way either, because there's nothing there to redeem. He was doomed from birth to be a lovely person and that's what he went on to be because he never had the opportunity to be anything else. I guess that in and of itself has some tragedy to it. Make no attempt to create a sad dad redemption arc for Valens.
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May 4, 2023 14:55
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:This is only true if you selectively ignore all the times this happened with male characters. Like Gaius for whom the Discourse still occasionally haunts this thread. Honestly Gaius kinda doesn't have an in-story comparison character. Fordola's probably the closest, but even there I find it's a fairly distant equality in hatred; there's definitely crowds that hate both, but it's in different ways and circles that make it really hard to compare in size. But elsewhere it's really noticeable, and it's hardly an FFXIV thing. There's a couple examples when you start looking around (obviously by the endgame the most obvious is Emet and Venat, but I've seen people level the same at the Yotsuyu/Zenos dichotomy; that makes more sense when you remember people really love that one short story about his childhood) but I think by far FFXIV's most blatant example when you start seeing it is Lyse. Because everyone who hates Lyse seems to treat sharing that as an Olympic goddamn sport, but if they ever bring up an actual 'thing she's done wrong' it's always something that another, male character does to a tangibly worse degree that they will never speak ill of, and also may well not have been something Lyse does anyway. EDIT: More just a point of curiosity here, but apparently the Japanese script does give Asahi an iota of... not quite 'redemption' so much as 'recognition of place'. Apparently in Japanese he's depicted as generally more intelligent and less petulant--not really a different character so much as different ratios of character traits--and his finale scene basically has him respond to the Scions with a lot less loathing, more an angle of 'I don't like you guys, but this fucker's mine, you do what you need to'. I think I prefer English Asahi, but I can respect that as an angle for the guy. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 15:04 on May 4, 2023 |
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May 4, 2023 14:59
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God Hole posted:by the end of the game you are best buds with a guy who was space hitler for thousands of years and knowingly orchestrated the circumstances that led to many many people like Fordola becoming twisted and grotesque. One of his last lines is a lovably snarky remark about how long and arduous his vigil was or whatever Maybe people aren't as upset about Emet because we loving killed him already.
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May 4, 2023 15:01
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I disagree with the idea that people don't want Asahi redeemed, or think that he's beyond redemption. He's a (Hot-ish) pretty boy who's in love with another pretty man and they both have issues. The desire for redemption, or even the idea that he did nothing wrong, comes absolutely naturally and its just something we have to deal with. Or, in other words? For maximum enjoyment of FFXIV, do not engage with certain parts of the fandom or the community.
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May 4, 2023 15:16
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I consider Asahi a comical character just for that scene where he leans in to try to intimidate you. Maybe it's not funny if you're close to him in size but it's hilarious if you're much bigger or smaller
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May 4, 2023 15:20
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https://twitter.com/chitinspore/status/1636892063026532352
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May 4, 2023 15:25
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sirtommygunn posted:Maybe people aren't as upset about Emet because we loving killed him already. it's settled then: Fordola needs to die I'm really glad ShB gives you a healer at 70 because I was so traumatized by ARR dungeons (Aurum Vale in particular) that I just never touched my WhM again after level 50. Turns out I actually like healing and they were some of the best role quests of the last two expansions
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May 4, 2023 15:34
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Fivemarks posted:I disagree with the idea that people don't want Asahi redeemed, or think that he's beyond redemption. He's a (Hot-ish) pretty boy who's in love with another pretty man and they both have issues. The desire for redemption, or even the idea that he did nothing wrong, comes absolutely naturally and its just something we have to deal with. For what it's worth, I've seen Asahi shippers, and they're best described as 'understanding the assignment'. Anyone who likes Asahi likes him not for who he could have been, but who he was, and even in that slightly more composed original Japanese he was kind of a total shitbird. You have other characters to make redeemable, sympathetic figures out of; people into Asahi like him because he's not that. It's even more true when you hit Endwalker and see the Fandaniel shippers--both kinds--that they've naturally got rather some overlap with (including at least one Asahi/Amon shipper). There's no 'I can fix him', nor necessarily 'I can make him worse', they're happy with this garbage fire just the way it was presented.
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May 4, 2023 15:51
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God Hole posted:I'm really glad ShB gives you a healer at 70 because I was so traumatized by ARR dungeons (Aurum Vale in particular) that I just never touched my WhM again after level 50. Turns out I actually like healing and they were some of the best role quests of the last two expansions Aurum Vale is where I fully internalized that I have Lustrate.
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