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Lady Radia posted:I don’t think I’ve ever seen a convincing breakdown on why subways in America were so comparatively expensive. americans LOVE, loving LOVE to tie up big projects in a bunch of LaNd rIghTs and easement bullshit. its our #2 favorite hobby besides letting kids die in school shootings
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May 4, 2023 20:29
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you know what americans love? making fun of the boston big dig. hahah here's this ridiculous project, which we conceived by driving too many cars, now we're gonna put 15 years of court battles on top, and spend way too much money to build a system that in the end can't be expanded, is built like poo poo, and floods when it rains. This is why it's moral and good for me to live in a KC suburb where i can knock up my stepdau
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May 4, 2023 20:30
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It’s kind of absurd how many problems here boil down to “we are afraid of giving people money”. just loving relocate folks and build your poo poo. make sure they can afford it. ffs what a dumb country
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May 4, 2023 20:31
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rotor posted:not really understanding who is angry at what anymore but like yes obviously the root of the problem is how  that jerk!
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May 4, 2023 20:31
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if the common law w nutjobs is a problem, why does singapore and hong kong have it comparatively cheap?
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May 4, 2023 20:31
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bob dobbs is dead posted:if the common law w nutjobs is a problem, why does singapore and hong kong have it comparatively cheap? existing in hk or singapore is cheap. living is insanely expensive.
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May 4, 2023 20:33
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we're talkin subways not other stuff
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May 4, 2023 20:33
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oh oh i got u not sure i can answer your question then
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May 4, 2023 20:35
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bob dobbs is dead posted:if the common law w nutjobs is a problem, why does singapore and hong kong have it comparatively cheap? i thought singapore was basically a dictatorship of lee kuan yew and his family, which makes all kinds of grand projects much more easy to execute and hk was under british rule, so once again they could steamroll and get whatever is needed, done
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May 4, 2023 20:35
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nyc is preparing to spend almost $8 billion to build 1 mile of tunnels and 2.5 stations I have no idea where all the money goes but a big part of it is probably that manhattan is already 100% developed. you can't build subway without tearing something down and that means you have to eminent domain some properties which is a huge protracted court battle with a rich guy, each time
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May 4, 2023 20:38
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I don't know if NIMBYs are usually directly causing the high cost of projects through the courts but even if they are it's not necessarily a traditional common law issue (anyway US common law has had a long time to develop independently). I think the more common problem is NIMBYs hijacking the community input process, the fear of any complaints in the community input process, and US-specific issues with eminent domain being virtually impossible combining to mean that projects like subway lines automatically get built in the most expensive/least efficient way possible (tunneling as far down as possible instead of cut and cover) to avoid any possible pretense of noise complaints etc. Anyway, doing the exact same work also costs a fuckload more in the us so that doesn't explain everything. mystes fucked around with this message at 20:46 on May 4, 2023 |
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May 4, 2023 20:40
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there are just too many subways in america. they're just a grift to move money from clueless franchisees to a shady company
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May 4, 2023 20:42
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We were promised hoverboards but all we got were overlords.
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May 4, 2023 20:46
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FMguru posted:
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May 4, 2023 20:47
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bob dobbs is dead posted:its less than a hundred billion total, about, so the answers no, not with the dog poo poo value for money american public transit gets. korean prices, maybe could be done if we let transit agencies buy back their old construction department that were forcibly privatized and now sell them back their old operations at a 5x markup
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May 4, 2023 20:49
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mystes posted:I think the more common problem is NIMBYs hijacking the community input process, the fear of any complaints in the community input process, and US-specific issues with eminent domain being virtually impossible combining to mean that projects like subway lines automatically get built in the most expensive/least efficient way possible (tunneling as far down as possible instead of cut and cover) to avoid any possible pretense of noise complaints etc. yeah someone sued the city trying to block a brt lane here in sf because they were concerned about "historic streetlights" and even though the lane eventually got built it delayed the project and rang up more legal fees. now multiply that by 100 or more any time they try to do anything. the city had to buy a building, tear it down to get a boring machine out of the new subway tunnel then pay to rebuild a new condo building for the owner. plus they didn't even put a station there because of "neighborhood groups" concerned about "community character" and "construction noise" qirex fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 4, 2023 |
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May 4, 2023 20:52
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mystes posted:I don't know if NIMBYs are usually directly causing the high cost of projects through the courts but even if they are it's not necessarily a traditional common law issue (anyway US common law has had a long time to develop independently). maybe just get rid of the community input process
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May 4, 2023 20:53
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i suspect a lot of the real drive behind how things turn from a 100m project to an 8b project is "sure would be a shame if that single hispanic mother couldn't ride a lovely train for 75 minutes to sell you an expensed $17 bagel for your 10:30 break"
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May 4, 2023 20:53
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haveblue posted:nyc is preparing to spend almost $8 billion to build 1 mile of tunnels and 2.5 stations the mta lost their construction department in the early 00s, so now they have to bid all construction projects through two consulting agencies that overbill them on everything. these agencies also pay their employees double, so the mta got brain drained and every project has to go through the state > city > mta > consultant > contractor > subcontractor pipeline on top of all the nimby public comment sessions. all the contractors and subcontractors know all the projects will be delayed and overbudgeted, so that gets built in (plus there are only 2-3 contractors who can even handle subway work) and all of a sudden you get a $10 million elevator.
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May 4, 2023 20:57
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not really followin you there jonny. i get the feeling youre trying to say 'its racism' which is probably true but i cant make the connection between that and what you wrote, really
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May 4, 2023 20:57
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Why can't one of those billionaire cranks just build a shitload of subways under their stupid libertarian techno-utopias They might turn into thriving cities once the land gets abandoned because nobody wants to pay taxes
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May 4, 2023 21:01
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the last time a billionaire thought "I should build a subway" we got a tunnel that lets you get into a traffic jam underneath the vegas strip
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May 4, 2023 21:02
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Racism / fear of poor people definitely affects transit projects a lot, but I think usually more in terms of them getting cancelled, delayed, or scaled back, and that's typically usually more stuff like light rail or commuter rail in places that are ambivalent to transit rather than subways in major cities I think. I'm sure you could find examples where people who were probably actually just racist / afraid of poor people managed to concern troll about noise or something in a way where changes ended up being made that made stuff more expensive, but I don't think you can blame the cost of building subways in the US primarily on that The choice to tunnel rather than doing cut-and-cover is one of the biggest factors and in a lot of places it seems like that's more about really minor stuff like fears of complaints about noise and disruption to traffic mystes fucked around with this message at 21:12 on May 4, 2023 |
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May 4, 2023 21:07
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we had this insane $3b cut and cover project to sink like 1/4 mile of i70 in denver and there's not even enough cover/tunnel to get a good rev on a loud car. like you're better off driving through the coors factory absolute waste
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May 4, 2023 21:19
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read pedestrianobservations if you want good analyses about what’s so hosed in american public infra spending
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May 4, 2023 21:40
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Snoop Dogg posted:Well I got a motherf*cking AI right now that they did made for me. This n***** could talk to me. I'm like, man this thing can hold a real conversation? Like real for real? Like it's blowing my mind because I watched movies on this as a kid years ago. When I see this sh*t I'm like what is going on? And I heard the dude, the old dude that created AI saying, "This is not safe, 'cause the AIs got their own minds, and these motherf*ckers gonna start doing their own sh*t. I'm like, are we in a f*cking movie right now, or what? The f*ck man? So do I need to invest in AI so I can have one with me? Or like, do y'all know? poo poo, what the f*ck?" I'm lost, I don't know. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/05/snoop-dogg-on-ai-risk-sh-what-the-f/
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May 4, 2023 21:52
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Shaggar posted:maybe just get rid of the community input process the bob moses approach
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May 4, 2023 22:04
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Shame Boy posted:the bob moses approach I bet he had community input, just from one part of the community
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May 4, 2023 22:05
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Soylent Pudding posted:https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/05/snoop-dogg-on-ai-risk-sh-what-the-f/ this is a way better take
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May 4, 2023 22:07
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Soylent Pudding posted:https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/05/snoop-dogg-on-ai-risk-sh-what-the-f/ this is how some lovely ai startup is going to get a hundred million dollars
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May 4, 2023 22:13
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tech bubble v5.3: poo poo, what the gently caress?
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May 4, 2023 22:13
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Jonny 290 posted:we had this insane $3b cut and cover project to sink like 1/4 mile of i70 in denver and there's not even enough cover/tunnel to get a good rev on a loud car. like you're better off driving through the coors factory good, loud cars can get hosed. revving your engine in the tunnel? nobody thinks you're cool buddy 
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May 4, 2023 22:14
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it gives me a bit of an anxiety attack whenever it happens out of nowhere and i really hate it please don't do that when i am in a tunnel thanks
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May 4, 2023 22:15
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Beeftweeter posted:this is how some lovely ai startup is going to get a hundred million dollars naaah, this is how some lovely ai startup winds up dissolved trying to explain what they're doing high
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May 4, 2023 22:16
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DELETE CASCADE posted:good, loud cars can get hosed. revving your engine in the tunnel? nobody thinks you're cool buddy when i retire i'm gonna get a job as a cop and the only thing i will do is hand out tickets to anything loud enough to set off car alarms, and also to people who have car alarms that can be set off by loud noises.
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May 4, 2023 22:20
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:naaah, this is how some lovely ai startup winds up dissolved trying to explain what they're doing high well, it would be pretty foolish to assume a startup is going to actually hang on to a hundred million dollars instead of burning through it in an incredibly dumb fashion
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May 4, 2023 22:22
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rotor posted:when i retire i'm gonna get a job as a cop and the only thing i will do is hand out tickets to anything loud enough to set off car alarms, and also to people who have car alarms that can be set off by loud noises. droppin bombs on your moms, gently caress car alarms
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May 4, 2023 22:28
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rotor posted:when i retire i'm gonna get a job as a cop and the only thing i will do is hand out tickets to anything loud enough to set off car alarms, and also to people who have car alarms that can be set off by loud noises. god bless you and god speed
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May 4, 2023 22:30
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theflyingexecutive posted:the mta lost their construction department in the early 00s, so now they have to bid all construction projects through two consulting agencies that overbill them on everything. these agencies also pay their employees double, so the mta got brain drained and every project has to go through the state > city > mta > consultant > contractor > subcontractor pipeline on top of all the nimby public comment sessions. all the contractors and subcontractors know all the projects will be delayed and overbudgeted, so that gets built in (plus there are only 2-3 contractors who can even handle subway work) and all of a sudden you get a $10 million elevator. they're currently beginning construction on a new subway through downtown toronto. the province pulled the local transit authority's ownership of all the subways and is now running it through the provincial org. the same provincial org that has taken over a decade to run a partially tunnelled line through the comparatively less dense midtown, with massive cost overruns. we're looking forward to a decade+ of absolute turbofucked downtown transit and traffic for an handful of stops, very likely costing multiple billions of dollars. coincidentally, the project process is exactly what you describe, because western governments love them some P3s and the public orgs that oversee them are absolute babes in the woods when it comes to writing contracts* *source: i used to drink with a guy who was on contract here from a us project management company that was hired to clean up the last absolute clusterfuck of a subway expansion infernal machines fucked around with this message at 22:32 on May 4, 2023 |
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May 4, 2023 22:30
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rotor posted:when i retire i'm gonna get a job as a cop and the only thing i will do is hand out tickets to anything loud enough to set off car alarms, and also to people who have car alarms that can be set off by loud noises. same but I'm going to hand out parking tickets for the egregious poo poo people pull round here like parking up the pavement Infront of a dropped kerb or, as one woman did last week, just full on driving up on the pavement towards pedestrians with all 4 wheels because "I'll only be here a minute"! that and people who litter. give me the power and I will ticket the everliving poo poo out of them. you don't even have to pay me.
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May 4, 2023 22:36
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