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side_burned posted:I will never get over how GW decided to do the End Times just before the launch of Total Warhammer. Launching a new edition for Fantasy sure that would make sense but why get rid of a game line when a hit video game was likely going to give the fanbase a shot in the arm.
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May 4, 2023 22:34
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Mors Rattus posted:Also it’s important to remember the CEO at the time, who is long gone now, thought the video games would compete with the wargame, not boost it. wow unreal They'll sell their models and abandon the game to have a LAN party and play total war against eachother!!!!
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May 4, 2023 22:39
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the previous GW leadership was bad to an almost comical degree, like a lot of the stuff they were open about doing would sound like a joke today
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May 4, 2023 22:58
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Mors Rattus posted:Also it’s important to remember the CEO at the time, who is long gone now, thought the video games would compete with the wargame, not boost it. Tom Kirby when asked about the decline in sales said "idk people like to collect models and we fill the need *shrug*" to an entire room full of shareholders and I will always soft-admire him for that
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May 4, 2023 23:02
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AOS in its current incarnation is a bloody miracle considering the reception to the End Times and the hilarious rollout to AOS 1.0
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May 4, 2023 23:18
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One the things about the bad old days people often forget that codexes/army books could go SEVERAL editions without an update and you were lucky to get one FAQ a year and it would never answer what you wanted.
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May 4, 2023 23:21
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Crazy Ferret posted:AOS in its current incarnation is a bloody miracle considering the reception to the End Times and the hilarious rollout to AOS 1.0 tbh i think most AoS players arent fantasy grogs these days considering the bitter seething I see on forums about 'pretending to ride a horse for +1' and 'sinister fences' etc etc etc Not a single AoS player I know was a fantasy fan
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May 4, 2023 23:24
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I have a guy at the local store who is an ex fantasy guy. He loves Empire and building terrain.
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May 4, 2023 23:26
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aos 1.0 was the worst rollout of a game I’ve ever seen and the turnaround has been a legitimate miracle.
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May 4, 2023 23:29
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AoS really ended up distilling a lot of the interest of WHFB and culled the chaff. It is definitely better than any iteration of WHFB. That is what makes TOW an interesting concept; they can ditch a lot of what made WHFB bad and create a unique and interesting regimental based game. The heart of what WHFB was is a regimental style game, and that was always at odds with many of the heroes and special characters, and models. What was ostensibly a regiment game just became an awkward skirmish between heroes that just happen to have regiments attached that acted like large HP pools. And while that was fine at the time, being able to separate out ToW and AoS really allows the designers on creating two games with different scope in regards to unit size, choice, cohesive composition while still enjoying the rich background that has been created.
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May 4, 2023 23:36
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IncredibleIgloo posted:AoS really ended up distilling a lot of the interest of WHFB and culled the chaff. It is definitely better than any iteration of WHFB. That is what makes TOW an interesting concept; they can ditch a lot of what made WHFB bad and create a unique and interesting regimental based game. The heart of what WHFB was is a regimental style game, and that was always at odds with many of the heroes and special characters, and models. What was ostensibly a regiment game just became an awkward skirmish between heroes that just happen to have regiments attached that acted like large HP pools. And while that was fine at the time, being able to separate out ToW and AoS really allows the designers on creating two games with different scope in regards to unit size, choice, cohesive composition while still enjoying the rich background that has been created. Yeah I keep reading that 8e was just slamming massive blocks of units together and then having heroes nuke em
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May 4, 2023 23:41
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:tbh i think most AoS players arent fantasy grogs these days considering the bitter seething I see on forums about 'pretending to ride a horse for +1' and 'sinister fences' etc etc etc This is a fair point and honestly describes myself. I bought my Skaven army at the end of 7th edition. Went into a store to learn the game and the people and was pretty put off by both the gameplay and the community around it. By 8th edition, it looked like no one was really having fun so I put the rats back in the closet till AOS 2.0 and have been having a blast ever since. I did get to watch a guy get forever banned from a store because they were caught adding green-stuff to their high elf chariot to make longer so they could get first turn charges. That was pretty glorious. Crazy Ferret fucked around with this message at 00:05 on May 5, 2023 |
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May 4, 2023 23:59
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In addition to AoS distilling WHFB into a good and playable game(eventually), another improvement I noticed in the GW world after a long hiatus was that they actually made White Dwarf worth reading again. I used to purchase it on the reg, but then it turned into just being a non stop advertisement of the upcoming model releases, and even the battle reports were just ads. There was never any useful content or rules or anything of interest. So when I picked up a White Dwarf last year I was *really* surprised at how much better it had become.
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May 5, 2023 00:42
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Oh yeah, newer White Dwarfs having cool unique lore and showcases for unique models (they spotlighted Tony Hawk Ork!!!) has kept me bugging month by month for the last like 3 years.
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May 5, 2023 01:31
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I just saw a start collecting greenskin AoS box on ebay that has Boys and a chariot in it. If they still made that I probably wouldn't care about old world.
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May 5, 2023 02:21
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:tbh i think most AoS players arent fantasy grogs these days considering the bitter seething I see on forums about 'pretending to ride a horse for +1' and 'sinister fences' etc etc etc I love setting up my sinister fences
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May 5, 2023 02:40
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:aos 1.0 was the worst rollout of a game I’ve ever seen and the turnaround has been a legitimate miracle. OK yeah this gets what I have been trying to say. GW decided to ditch Fantasy at a time when there was strong chance that there was going to be renewed interest in the game and replaced it with the first version of the AoS, which from my causal point of view, was pretty much universally hated. I was shocked to GW literally nuke decades of cool fluff and replace with a setting that seemed much less compelling. side_burned fucked around with this message at 03:50 on May 5, 2023 |
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May 5, 2023 03:43
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It wasn't even a setting at first. Or a game, really. There were numerous turn one auto-wins, no points, and deliberately embarrassing rules specifically intended to turn away serious fans. I'd actually be pretty stoked with a conversion guide to using ToW armies and setting with AoS rules. They actually did that for a minute, with the old names and everything.
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May 5, 2023 04:02
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side_burned posted:OK yeah this gets what I have been trying to say. GW decided to ditch Fantasy at a time when there was strong chance that there was going to be renewed interest in the game and replaced it with the first version of the AoS, which from my causal point of view, was pretty much universally hated. I was shocked to GW literally nuke decades of cool fluff and replace with a setting that seemed much less compelling. I don't think it can be understated how poorly Tom Kirby understood the demographic, the product he was selling, or the market conditions. He had an active disdain for the fans, and contentiously ignored them. He also spent an inordinate amount of time, energy, and money to pursue frivolous copyright claims and devised rules that actively dissuaded people from selling the product. quote:"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche"
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May 5, 2023 05:07
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Kirby was so bad I'm surpraised WotC did not hire him. As far as ex fantasy people I know some that went from wfb to aos but not many. Its mostly people who jumped in from other games or 40k refugees around this parts.
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May 5, 2023 06:46
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Crazy Ferret posted:AOS in its current incarnation is a bloody miracle considering the reception to the End Times and the hilarious rollout to AOS 1.0 I used to play WHFB/40K when I was in my teens back in the early 2000s before leaving the hobby, and my reintroduction to it in the mid-2010s was the “GW death thread” that was a staple in TG. At that time AOS 1.0 was a disaster, TW was an hit, and Kings of War was actually looking like a legit WH rival. Everyone was watching Kirby like a hawk to see what his next boneheaded move would be, and the general expectation was that they would reach such a critical mass that GW would eventually just become a medium-sized TT gaming company rather than an industry behemoth. Weird to think that what started as basically rubbernecking as the brand nosedived eventually got me back into the hobby, albeit in a much more limited way.
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May 5, 2023 06:55
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I had WHFB minis but never played the game much. I really like fantasy, but tbh my fantasy needs have entirely been met by total war now. While I liked fantasy, I love aos and it's a pleasure watching the setting come together more and get fleshed out. I'm super excited for the cities range to release. I also love the kruleboyz minis and hope they go harder in that direction.
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May 5, 2023 07:15
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The only other memory that that has stuck around in my head regarding AoS 1e was Mantic's response to everything, especially when they swapped out the Space Marine statue at the front of their offices. Pretty sure they thought they were scoring a massive win, but it just made them look like massive babies.
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May 5, 2023 11:33
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Cooked Auto posted:The only other memory that that has stuck around in my head regarding AoS 1e was Mantic's response to everything, especially when they swapped out the Space Marine statue at the front of their offices. What did they do?
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May 5, 2023 11:50
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AoS 1E was famously terrible but I will say for it that it created a rule space where rules and factions could be very different in interesting and varied ways. 40k faction and subfaction rules are always small bonuses that are pulling from the same pool of buffs, whereas AoS factions have always felt a lot freer. Things like GSG and Vampires being able to bring models back from the dead, or BoC coming in from wherever they want, or Stormcast getting unique pick your own command abilities or Orruks moving and charging out of phase is a much bigger rules space. Even things like heroic actions and monstrous rampages are a much bigger design space than 40k gets. They've been paring it back a lot in AoS 3e in this edition's army books but I hope it never gets compressed to a 40k level.
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May 5, 2023 11:54
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Covermeinsunshine posted:What did they do? Made their own statue made out of trash, painted it gold and put in the parking lot in front of their front door. I'm sure there are pictures of it somewhere still. It came off as incredibly childish and petty in my eyes.
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May 5, 2023 12:04
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It was a trip watching Mantic speedrun from aping cool fun 80's GW to the weird licenses, bloat, and unnecessary edition shifts of 2000's GW.
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May 5, 2023 12:22
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Cooked Auto posted:Made their own statue made out of trash, painted it gold and put in the parking lot in front of their front door. I'm sure there are pictures of it somewhere still. I think you misunderstood their intentions - that was just display of their miniature design and production technology
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May 5, 2023 12:32
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Cooked Auto posted:Made their own statue made out of trash, painted it gold and put in the parking lot in front of their front door. I'm sure there are pictures of it somewhere still. I thought it was pretty funny. It's funny when corporations fight because it doesn't really matter. If you view GW as more of a lifestyle brand then I can see why it would be upsetting.
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May 5, 2023 12:35
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AnEdgelord posted:One the things about the bad old days people often forget that codexes/army books could go SEVERAL editions without an update and you were lucky to get one FAQ a year and it would never answer what you wanted. AOS is mechanically a better game than WFB. That being said, it's also worth remembering the stuff that makes AOS good (constant rules tweaking/updates, constant release schedule, smaller armies, multiple "themed" armies instead of giant faction books, less movement shenanigans, etc) was stuff the player base asked for and was told to pound sand.
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May 5, 2023 12:35
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It really ultimately comes down to Kirby getting removed and a new leadership that was willing to actually listen to other people.
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May 5, 2023 13:45
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I'm sad that we'll never get a WHFB game with the same support AoS has.
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May 5, 2023 13:52
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Covermeinsunshine posted:I think you misunderstood their intentions - that was just display of their miniature design and production technology 
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May 5, 2023 14:12
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The dumbest thing about Kirby by far is that he and the leadership at the time thought they were purely a model company and the games were an afterthought, and that few of their customers actually played the game. He also openly scoffed at the notion of tournaments. The result was that the game development team was barely supported and the rules were dogshit. The quality of all of their games started sharply improving the moment he left. Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 14:31 on May 5, 2023 |
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May 5, 2023 14:23
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With the exception of AoS1e, I don't think I've heard a Warhammer edition as derided and loathed as 40k 7th ed.
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May 5, 2023 14:58
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IncredibleIgloo posted:I don't think it can be understated how poorly Tom Kirby understood the demographic, the product he was selling, or the market conditions. He had an active disdain for the fans, and contentiously ignored them. He also spent an inordinate amount of time, energy, and money to pursue frivolous copyright claims and devised rules that actively dissuaded people from selling the product. What an actual alpha male. Tom Kirby also had the unenviable task of keeping GW alive during the Great Recession and during a massive dip in hobby spending, which I think a lot of people weren't really understanding, but it does seem GW had a bit of a "boomers not understanding poo poo" problem if the story from the Mordheim guy is true that he almost got shitcanned for saying mail-order was obsolete and GW needed to get a modern online store going. Cooked Auto posted:Made their own statue made out of trash, painted it gold and put in the parking lot in front of their front door. I'm sure there are pictures of it somewhere still. making GBS threads on GW (or any other market leader) is awesome, but the problem with Mantic is they aren't Dreamworks. If you're going to say Disney sucks, you do it by making a Shrek, not by making a passable wargame with uglier models and that weird mantic resin shite. So all we have is Mantic talking tons of poo poo (to this day) and coming up with some good games and still ugly lovely models that aren't so good. Mors Rattus posted:It really ultimately comes down to Kirby getting removed and a new leadership that was willing to actually listen to other people. I don't know. I don't know how much he was listening to other people and how much he was just starting up the specialist games brand again. A lot of the Roundtree love comes from that. Otherwise, a lot of what Roundtree has been pushing for is turning Warhammer into a lifestyle brand. Lots of licensed merch, an endless parade of audiobooks, average to worse animated shows and other stuff on Warhammer+, it's not really the thing I like to see. I understand what Warhammer+ is supposed to be, it's not meant to be netflix, it's meant to be a further component of cocooning yourself in your hobby 24/7. It's whale poo poo. Buy the models, listen to audiobooks/watch batreps and painting guides and cartoons while you paint. If every aspect of the hobby comes under GW's control, then the garden really gets walled off at that point, since you'll be watching animations, bat reports, lore videos, memeing along with the community, learning painting techniques etc etc etc, all of this all of it under the watchful eye of papa roundtree and I'm not really here for it but I guess I understand why.
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May 5, 2023 15:00
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7e's detachments were pay to win, where you got awarded free points for buying certain combinations of models. IIRC, the most egregious one gave you a few hundred points of transports. So just buy the drat transports already, you rubes.
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May 5, 2023 15:03
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Cooked Auto posted:With the exception of AoS1e, I don't think I've heard a Warhammer edition as derided and loathed as 40k 7th ed. 40k 7th was so bad it literally almost killed GW, people were playing AoS 1e just to get away from it and you can credit any success Privateer Press ever had to how bad it was.
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May 5, 2023 15:05
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AnEdgelord posted:40k 7th was so bad it literally almost killed GW, people were playing AoS 1e just to get away from it and you can credit any success Privateer Press ever had to how bad it was. And then PP, high on their own success, manages to massively gently caress up in turn.
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May 5, 2023 15:11
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That makes sense. The sort of lovely CEO/shareholder short term thinking. They make their money on huge markups on models. Printing rulebooks and making rule books doesn't make much (really it should be free). You want to make a gently caress ton of money all at once and it needs to happen this quarter!!!
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May 5, 2023 15:11
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