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Arquinsiel posted:Thread seems to value them as lottery tickets. You should not consider RSUs lottery tickets. Options on startups sure, but that is get different. RSUs are money that's tied up, is all. If your that confident the stock is going to plummet your should make a fortune shorting. I wouldn't consider RSUs as good as cash, but I'd consider them pretty close. How close is up to you. And if you're somewhere that doesn't give bonuses and only offers mediocre options they are probably screwing you over by only paying slightly above market. You should probably be looking hard at total comp here.
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Apr 29, 2023 05:43
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Lockback posted:You should not consider RSUs lottery tickets. Options on startups sure, but that is get different. RSUs are money that's tied up, is all. If your that confident the stock is going to plummet your should make a fortune shorting. Interesting. During the interviews, one manager mentioned that the RSUs vest every quarter, so you always have something to sell. Everyone (from their side) didn't forget to mention how good the pay is (probably total comp), but, of course, without numbers there is no way to tell what "good" means.
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Apr 29, 2023 05:47
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Lockback posted:You should not consider RSUs lottery tickets. Options on startups sure, but that is get different. RSUs are money that's tied up, is all. If your that confident the stock is going to plummet your should make a fortune shorting. You are often prohibited from trading options, or any sort of derivative, on the stock of the company you work for. Absolutely prohibited by law if you are considered an insider, but potentially against company trading policy regardless. Employees are expressly forbidden from trading options at my company, no matter your role.
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Apr 29, 2023 06:08
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Volguus posted:Interesting. During the interviews, one manager mentioned that the RSUs vest every quarter, so you always have something to sell. Everyone (from their side) didn't forget to mention how good the pay is (probably total comp), but, of course, without numbers there is no way to tell what "good" means. Every quarter? I'm interested in financial stuff, but am still a noob, so this question might be ignorant: I don't get why it would be RSUs instead of a Employee Stock Purchase Program or ESPP if the vesting was so darn quick. *pursues knowledge* Oh, RSUs are free and ESPPs are just at a discount, apparently. I mean, I think generally owning stock in your own company is subideal from a diversification standpoint: if it plummets, you're losing your investment and probably your job. So, even if you accept them as a part of your compensation, maybe don't have this replace anything else in your retirement scheme like 401k and IRAs and poo poo. If you can, that is. Sure, they would have some idosyncratic risk as any individual stock, but 3 months is not very long at all. At a past job the company's ESPP had 1 year yesting IIRC. I assume this company is publicly traded, and if so you could sell them immediately after vesting, and even take the profits and put it into a different taxable investment such as an index fund to diversify and lock in that value. As far as how much to discount RSU value due to that inherent risk as compared to flat compensation, I have no idea.
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Apr 29, 2023 09:51
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I used to cash out my RSUs as soon as they vested and then just pooled that money into my normal investment strategy. In the US, you get taxed on RSUs at income tax level when they vest so there is no tax burden if you sell right away and reinvest (unless the stock shoots up that morning then you pay short term on the difference, but that should be small). I mean they're just like cash, especially if they vest quarterly. You just don't know how much because the stock will go up or down. If it's a big company you probably have a pretty good idea though. I would agree you want to diversify in general though.
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Apr 29, 2023 15:31
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Want a sanity check on my thought process here and post from corporate thread. I’ll be receiving an offer, yay. But its less than what I started at at former job 5 years ago, and I got a promotion there… If they need to come up 40-50% (manufacturing related at a megacorp) would it be best to say we’re very far apart but I thank you for the interest and opportunity to learn more about your company, best of luck in finding the right candidate?
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May 5, 2023 21:51
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Tnuctip posted:Want a sanity check on my thought process here and post from corporate thread. I’ll be receiving an offer, yay. But its less than what I started at at former job 5 years ago, and I got a promotion there… Honestly I wouldn't blame you for walking away but you have them on a line so may as well reel it in a little and see what happens. I'd make sure to be professional but let them know they are coming in under your current/former role (normally this is a "none of their business" but here it could help you) and give them a counter that you think is fair (and is over your "take it" number). They may not realize the market is what it is and maybe could go back and re-adjust. There's always the possibility it just might not be the role you think it is, so feel free to walk away.
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May 5, 2023 22:00
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Quick trip report: my wife got a new job, so that's nice. She's formally unqualified, but otherwise a great fit. She asked me about pay, so I told her a fairly big number (50.000 DKK/month). She didn't think she could get it in a government job, so she went with 45, which was countered with an offer of 44, which she took. Except at her level in the Danish government, the union representative formally does the negotiation after agreement in principle, which occasionally adds a bit. In this case the union rep was mostly just impressed with the number though, which makes me think it's good. Bottom line: I anchored my wife high. Always go high.
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May 7, 2023 10:02
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What's a good response to a company saying their offer is just based in a formula of education+years of experience, and therefore non-negotiable? Luckily the offer I received was within my acceptable range, but I'm wondering how I could've handled it being outside of it. I think my only option would be to go 10-20% higher and state that they likely weren't accounting for some exceptional part of my CV or extra relevant bits of experience. In this case since it was only a bit off what I wanted it felt like I couldn't push much
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May 7, 2023 10:51
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That's (imho) a pretty big red flag, unless it's public service. But they tend to pay rather poorly so I guess it's not 
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May 7, 2023 11:10
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I think you just negotiate anyway, right? What's the worst that'll happen? They send a scolding message to your congressperson? edit: vvv I'm in the US so I don't know poo poo about civilized countries. Magnetic North fucked around with this message at 11:21 on May 7, 2023 |
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May 7, 2023 11:13
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It's a large company with a pretty strong union/employee agreement (in Europe), also publishes it's salary scales (up to a certain point) for employees to see. But I'm sure there would still be a fair bit of wiggle room within the scales if I was deft enough to make use of it
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May 7, 2023 11:17
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Then figure out everything that could count to your years of service. They aren't refusing to negotiate, they're just using different rules to do so.
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May 7, 2023 11:53
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Wibla posted:That's (imho) a pretty big red flag, unless it's public service. But they tend to pay rather poorly so I guess it's not Its not at all a red flag, unless their salary bands are below market. The point of negotiating a salary isn't to "win" a negotiation, it's to land on a mutually acceptable number that is hopefully at or above market rate for your skills. Additionally, if an employer takes an approach of "always negotiate for salary" then for lots of cultural reasons you will probably end up with your highest paid people more likely to be male and from more affluent backgrounds. A good way to level the playing field is to offer a very tight salary band and use people's experience as the measuring stick (while still offering competitive wages). As for advice, yes make sure you are presenting yourself the strongest you can against their criteria, but I am pretty sure if their saying "This is our offer" then that's probably going to be their offer. If it's a good offer take it, if it's not politely and professionally decline and tell them why. If they have have wiggle room in the latter situation they'll tip their hand then. Do what research you can if you're not sure if its a good offer. It's far better to take a 100k job that doesn't negotiate than to negotiate a 80k job to 90k. The latter might felt like a win, but it isn't.
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May 7, 2023 14:33
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Lockback posted:Its not at all a red flag, unless their salary bands are below market. The point of negotiating a salary isn't to "win" a negotiation, it's to land on a mutually acceptable number that is hopefully at or above market rate for your skills. Additionally, if an employer takes an approach of "always negotiate for salary" then for lots of cultural reasons you will probably end up with your highest paid people more likely to be male and from more affluent backgrounds. A good way to level the playing field is to offer a very tight salary band and use people's experience as the measuring stick (while still offering competitive wages). You are right in principle, but in my experience the "non negotiable" ones pay 50k and you negotiate everyone else from 80k to 90k.
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May 7, 2023 14:49
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Maybe but in this case the op said it was within a good range. If it's a good salary and the other factors are good, no reason to look at it as a red flag.
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May 7, 2023 14:51
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Have a final interview with a job I would really like on Thursday. I have medium to high confidence I'll get it; it has been filled by temp staff for a month or two, I exceed the requirements and the initial stages went really well. The HR people also seemed seemed a little inexperienced; one of them let slip (and promptly corrected themselves unconvincingly) that I was the only person interviewing at the earlier stages, and essentially allowed me to pick the time and date for the final interview. The question is about salary negotiation and what constitutes a stronger arguement to ask for more. They said the offer at the first stage was x, and I nodded and said "good to know." My arguements are, in no particular order: - I far exceed the stated requirements in both areas of experience and years - I'd have to cut back on freelance work that is enjoyable / lucrative in order to fulfil the substantive requirements - I found a posting for the same role elsewhere in the organisation from 2021 that was actually >x - The post is is for 39 weeks of the year and the pay pro rata'd accordingly but the days are 8-5 so it actually constitutes full time in the UK - I stated I could start in September but they'd like me sooner, which would require a outlay for accomodation with wife and dog before we could sell house in a reasonable time frame The pay offer of x is workable, but, frankly, an extra 10% would make life in London a lot more enjoyable. Thing is I'd really like to work there and don't want to scare them off, nor do I have the desire to walk away if they don't budge. Do I negotiate after I have received an offer? If they offer after the interview what's a nice way to say "I need to see the particulars in writing but I'm excited to come work with you"?
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May 7, 2023 16:12
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Lockback posted:Maybe but in this case the op said it was within a good range. If it's a good salary and the other factors are good, no reason to look at it as a red flag. I thought it was a US job, things are somewhat different in Europe
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May 7, 2023 16:35
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A little bit of update on my previous post: The company I interviewed with made the offer and after a bit of negotiation I accepted it. The cash pay is a little bit higher than what I make now, insignificantly so. But, with the shares, which vest quarterly, I end up making 50% more in the first year, to over 120% more by the 3rd year. The number of shares they give quarterly are not fixed, the $ amount is fixed. All in all I'm pretty happy with the arrangement, it's a fair bit of money for my location. And I was paid very well even now. And, with those shares, one can sell them right away when they vest (and diversify) or keep them and sell them later. The stock over the last 5 years gained almost 400%, with a little dip in 2022, but otherwise constantly going up.
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May 7, 2023 16:54
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You don't need to justify, but seeing the other job at a higher rate gives you a very important bit of information you can use for a good counter. If you want 10% more, I'd probably counter at 20 and then come down. Negotiating in the UK is a little different so adjust accordingly. Also don't counter until all the interviews are done. You want them completely in love with you and the further down the path you go the more they'll feel the pressure of the sunk cost. Volguus posted:A little bit of update on my previous post: Congrats! Yeah if you're getting RSUs that are vesting quarterly that's pretty much cash. If you're in the US, make sure they are withholding shares for taxes. If they aren't, that's fine but you'll be taxed your top income bracket on the value when you get them, so you should sell that % and put that money somewhere safe until tax time. And I'd suggest diversifying and not just keeping all that value in 1 company, but there's better places to get advice for that. Well done!
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May 7, 2023 17:29
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Heliosicle posted:What's a good response to a company saying their offer is just based in a formula of education+years of experience, and therefore non-negotiable?
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May 7, 2023 18:54
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Lockback posted:Congrats! Yeah if you're getting RSUs that are vesting quarterly that's pretty much cash. If you're in the US, make sure they are withholding shares for taxes. If they aren't, that's fine but you'll be taxed your top income bracket on the value when you get them, so you should sell that % and put that money somewhere safe until tax time. And I'd suggest diversifying and not just keeping all that value in 1 company, but there's better places to get advice for that. Thank you. Yes, I asked and the shares are withheld for taxes when issued. If I don't sell right away and the price goes up, then I'm taxed at capital gains rate (I think that's what's called, smaller % amount anyway).
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May 7, 2023 19:23
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Volguus posted:Thank you. Yes, I asked and the shares are withheld for taxes when issued. If I don't sell right away and the price goes up, then I'm taxed at capital gains rate (I think that's what's called, smaller % amount anyway). Much like with any other equities. if held for less than a year your profits are taxed as short term capital gains (same as income tax), and if you hold for more than a year, you are taxed at LTCG rates, which is lower than income tax rates and is probably 15% for you. (there is a 0% bracket, but it's relatively low income, and there's a 20% bracket which starts at 460k for single, so you're probably not in that one, either.)
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May 7, 2023 19:43
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I had a great interview with a panel on Friday, and they asked for my references this morning. They want to bring in someone ASAP before the current person leaves. I asked if they could provide the proposed salary before I provide references, and their offer was $500 more than my on-paper salary, plus a signing bonus. However, my current position also provides a yearly $5-7k bonus (which is due at the end of the month, so I'd be forfeiting that); so I responded that I couldn't accept a pay reduction. They responded:quote:Can you please share what your bottom line salary is? Thanks! How do I respond? I'm tempted to just give them the actual number, and if they can't do it, pass. Is that the right move? Edit: I guess I'd respond: - "My target has been $XXX,XXX. Can you get closer to that?" But that gives them wiggle room. So maybe just say number. Red fucked around with this message at 18:04 on May 8, 2023 |
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May 8, 2023 17:58
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Red posted:I had a great interview with a panel on Friday, and they asked for my references this morning. They want to bring in someone ASAP before the current person leaves. I asked if they could provide the proposed salary before I provide references, and their offer was $500 more than my on-paper salary, plus a signing bonus. However, my current position also provides a yearly $5-7k bonus (which is due at the end of the month, so I'd be forfeiting that); so I responded that I couldn't accept a pay reduction. They responded: I need to be at $CURRENT_NUMBER+TARGET_INCREASE_%. Let me know when you'd like to schedule the start date, the earliest date I can accept is SOME_TIME_IN_FUTURE.
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May 8, 2023 18:10
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Red posted:I had a great interview with a panel on Friday, and they asked for my references this morning. They want to bring in someone ASAP before the current person leaves. I asked if they could provide the proposed salary before I provide references, and their offer was $500 more than my on-paper salary, plus a signing bonus. However, my current position also provides a yearly $5-7k bonus (which is due at the end of the month, so I'd be forfeiting that); so I responded that I couldn't accept a pay reduction. They responded: Don't ask if they can get closer, just state what you want e.g. my target is $X. If they can't meet X then they'll respond with a number anyway. For the signing bonus portion, you can ask for them to cover your bonus you're leaving behind.
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May 8, 2023 18:16
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leper khan posted:I need to be at $CURRENT_NUMBER+TARGET_INCREASE_%. Let me know when you'd like to schedule the start date, the earliest date I can accept is SOME_TIME_IN_FUTURE. Thanks - I asked for 15.67% more. It's a big ask, but I'd be making some lifestyle changes to go into an office twice a week from fully remote. But that's what I want, and I won't feel bad if they decline.
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May 8, 2023 18:20
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15% would be like a minimum I'd need to move even if I was literally walking into a carbon copy of my workplace. There's risk being the newest hire. Also, they need you to start fast is there problem. Your start date should be June 1st (or whatever to get your bonus) and if they want you to start earlier then you will need that bonus covered.
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May 8, 2023 18:31
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Lockback posted:15% would be like a minimum I'd need to move even if I was literally walking into a carbon copy of my workplace. There's risk being the newest hire. Oh, I already said I'd need 4 weeks from an offer acceptance before I could start. I need time to hand off tons of poo poo and take a week off for myself. HR responded: quote:Thanks for getting back to me. Unfortunately the absolute max of the position level is $XXX,XXX. Was the range not discussed with you when you spoke with the recruiter? I apologize for the misinformation if you did not have the opportunity to discuss salary during the initial call with the recruiter. So their offer is about $6k less than my figure. quote:I did, and let the recruiter know that my current salary is right at that figure. She did want to look into signing bonuses, and let me know that individuals can move up quickly. She was very diplomatic, but salary was a 'TBD'. If they pass, that's totally fine. They're a great but big non-profit, and I see no reason to give them a discount. I was super anxious about the offer and being disappointed with a figure lower than I wanted, but I already have a job, so I'm in no rush. As soon as I put down the number I wanted (that I felt I deserved), I felt great about it.
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May 8, 2023 18:48
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Son of a bitch, they want a phone call. Edit: My plan is to hold the line. Red fucked around with this message at 19:01 on May 8, 2023 |
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May 8, 2023 18:55
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Sounds like you need to decide if you're happy with 6k less than your proposal.
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May 8, 2023 18:58
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Red posted:Son of a bitch, they want a phone call. Stick to your number. Write it down on a piece of paper in front of you. Don't fall for any "think about what a great job you might have in 2 years" bullshit
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May 8, 2023 18:58
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Lockback posted:Stick to your number. Write it down on a piece of paper in front of you. Also this. Notebook is the most powerful tool for negotiation. Write down anything you're about to say before you say it. Double check that thing against your goals before you open your mouth.
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May 8, 2023 18:59
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Lockback posted:Stick to your number. Write it down on a piece of paper in front of you. There is not a fist emoji big enough.
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May 8, 2023 19:02
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HR: So they came back and upped their offer another $3k as their max. But what I can tell you is that once you're trained and in the role, you'd be bumped to level 2; that is an assurance, and your salary request would be within that position's range. Me: Totally understood, but I have to consider I have a position I enjoy with little oversight and am fully remote. If it's not a perfect match, I'm in no rush. HR: ... well, I can tell you they want to move ahead ASAP and were excited to bring you on. What if I see if I can have them bring you on as a level 2? Me: Sounds good. Take your time, I am in no rush.
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May 8, 2023 19:10
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Red posted:HR: So they came back and upped their offer another $3k as their max. But what I can tell you is that once you're trained and in the role, you'd be bumped to level 2; that is an assurance, and your salary request would be within that position's range. 
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May 8, 2023 19:14
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Red posted:HR: So they came back and upped their offer another $3k as their max. But what I can tell you is that once you're trained and in the role, you'd be bumped to level 2; that is an assurance, and your salary request would be within that position's range. Awesome, there is a huge lesson to be learned here on using leverage.
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May 8, 2023 19:41
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Red posted:HR: So they came back and upped their offer another $3k as their max. But what I can tell you is that once you're trained and in the role, you'd be bumped to level 2; that is an assurance, and your salary request would be within that position's range. gently caress yeah. No matter what HR comes back with, this is a win.
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May 8, 2023 19:46
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Now that's some fuckin' BATNA. Job hunting when you have a good job and are willing to use that as leverage in a negotiation really is a whole different world.
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May 8, 2023 20:17
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That is good, but am I correct in understanding that you're leaving your current role, that you like, for a ~15% raise that also requires you to work hybrid vs fully remote? Also, be sure you've looked at the entire benefit package and not just the salary, apologies if you mentioned you did already.
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May 8, 2023 21:19
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