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Parallelwoody posted:That is good, but am I correct in understanding that you're leaving your current role, that you like, for a ~15% raise that also requires you to work hybrid vs fully remote? Also, be sure you've looked at the entire benefit package and not just the salary, apologies if you mentioned you did already. Absolutely. My current job is great in a lot of ways, but I'm also super overworked, and the benefits took a nosedive in the last year. And, we rely on contracts that are up for renewal but aren't guaranteed, though we're in a good spot to win them. I'm also considering taking a finalized offer to my boss to ask if they can match/beat it, but I haven't gotten there yet mentally.
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May 8, 2023 21:48
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Red posted:They're a great but big non-profit, and I see no reason to give them a discount. My partner is in a similar place, nice to hear of others going through this. The non-profit realm does the "you should do it for the love (and accept below what you should)" scam
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May 8, 2023 22:27
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Epitope posted:My partner is in a similar place, nice to hear of others going through this. The non-profit realm does the "you should do it for the love (and accept below what you should)" scam I've worked long enough in non-profit to know that you're still disposable despite the philosophy. Get what you can.
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May 8, 2023 22:42
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FMguru posted:The Negotiation Thread: Now that's some fuckin' BATNA
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May 9, 2023 00:25
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So as an update, the reason I asked what salary they proposed was because they asked for 3 supervisory references prior to an offer. I didn't want to ask a current supervisor, so I went back to my last job from over 6 years ago; and one of them had heard about my potential new boss, and shared feedback from a colleague who had worked under her that the potential new boss is extremely toxic. So, I'm going to decline whatever the counter-offer is. I'm not going to use any offer to get a raise at my current place, because I think it would look lovely to negotiate a raise and still leave a month or few later if I found something better. But I still feel great about good negotiating.
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May 9, 2023 16:29
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I wouldn't feel bad about being lovely, but if you come to your current job with a offer and they decline to match it your pretty screwed. So if you don't want to take new job, don't use it for leverage at your current one.
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May 9, 2023 17:18
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Red posted:So as an update, the reason I asked what salary they proposed was because they asked for 3 supervisory references prior to an offer. I didn't want to ask a current supervisor, so I went back to my last job from over 6 years ago; and one of them had heard about my potential new boss, and shared feedback from a colleague who had worked under her that the potential new boss is extremely toxic. Try negotiating reporting to a different person, and see what they say - make it clear your put Potential Boss in a firm 'awful individual' to work for, and so sorry but being under them is a deal breaker. If they come back to you with reporting to someone else and a superior position; take time to weigh the options. This isn't about making the opening; its about letting the company know a bad apple costs them good candidates. If you feel like leaving the door opens, you can offer them contract services, just to tide them over until they get a qualified hire - As a consultant, you have greater leeway to ignore bullshit and certain power games like scheduling stuff and are free-er to walk; so it may cut down on the toxicity. If you do go down this route, definitely have a strong retainer agreement in place and chat with a lawyer first. The winnest of wins, for example, would be given the chance of it being a fully remote position (where it was not before) explicity so you don't have to look lovely Potential Boss in the face.. (potentially as at scheduling Less Than Overworked with more flexible hours) TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 20:13 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 20:02
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No, don't work for an rear end in a top hat, not even remotely.quote:- make it clear your put Potential Boss in a firm 'awful individual' to work for, and so sorry but being under them is a deal breaker. This is the only correct answer. "I'm sorry but I have some mutual acquaintances with {rear end in a top hat} and I am not interested in a role that reports to her. If a suitable role on a different team were to become available, I would welcome hearing back from you. Good luck filling the role on {rear end in a top hat}'s team, you're going to need it." e: unless you work in a super insular industry where you fear career repercussions from openly making an enemy of the rear end in a top hat. If that's actually the case then you can and should just decline the opportunity without saying why. "Thanks so much for your time, I enjoyed our conversations, but I have decided to pursue a different opportunity." But otherwise, name and shame that poo poo IMO. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 20:25 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 20:17
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Don’t do that for the same reason you don’t say that in exit interview feedback. unless you have a personal relationship in which case it’s ok.
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May 9, 2023 20:22
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TheParadigm posted:Try negotiating reporting to a different person, and see what they say No way around them, they've been the head of that place for decades, and are the face of it. Jordan7hm posted:Don’t do that for the same reason you don’t say that in exit interview feedback. This is my approach; I don't want to poison any well, and the field isn't that huge. Additionally, I've never really trusted most HR people.
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May 9, 2023 20:25
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Red posted:No way around them, they've been the head of that place for decades, and are the face of it. In that case yeah just politely withdraw from consideration and move on with your life. Buy your ex-boss a thank-you gift for saving you from a year or more of misery.
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May 9, 2023 20:26
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TheParadigm posted:Try negotiating reporting to a different person, and see what they say I think in most situations this is probably not a great approach. If the opening is on person X's team, and it makes sense that it exists in this person's org then even if they agree to that condition (big if) you'll just end up getting re-orged under them, probably sooner rather than later. Honestly, the worst thing you can do is end up under a lovely manager. Just avoid.
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May 9, 2023 20:29
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Fair enough. thats my bad!
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May 9, 2023 20:36
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Lockback posted:Honestly, the worst thing you can do is end up under a lovely manager. Just avoid. That depends on manager turnover at the company. In my 18 years of software development, I don't think I've had the same manager for more than 24 months, and the average is probably 8 months per manager. On the other hand, I know someone in a similar role who had the same manager for 14 years, so it seems all over the place.
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May 9, 2023 20:39
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Red posted:So as an update, the reason I asked what salary they proposed was because they asked for 3 supervisory references prior to an offer. I didn't want to ask a current supervisor, so I went back to my last job from over 6 years ago; and one of them had heard about my potential new boss, and shared feedback from a colleague who had worked under her that the potential new boss is extremely toxic. Update: They emailed me this morning to say they were still in discussions to bump me a level, but would like references. I called the recruiter and let them know I'd be declining, and was super diplomatic - thanked them for their time, they seemed great, but it wasn't the perfect fit for a long-term role I was looking for, and talked about the fragility of non-profit funding, while letting them know I wanted to be decisive and let them know now so they had time to bring someone in before the current person leaves. They seemed really understanding and appreciative, and said to let them know if I changed my mind, or were interested in future openings, etc. - which, hey, I may. Just not that particular department. 
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May 10, 2023 17:37
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Get to have a non fun call with a recruiter tomorrow after I was told that asking for more pay would get the offer withdrawn. And recruiters colleague who I made initial contact with emailed everyone that I was ok with the salary when i wasn’t, and as a bonus she also said I verbally accepted the offer Friday. Sadly though there’s a higher level position open with them that I actually applied for but was ignored, what are my chances on converting application? I guess the moral of the story is to just be pushy as gently caress to all recruiters all the time?
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May 14, 2023 23:32
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A bridge made out of recruiters is the one I’ll gladly burn. Every time.
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May 14, 2023 23:39
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Tnuctip posted:I guess the moral of the story is to just be pushy as gently caress to all recruiters all the time? Yes. Yes it is.
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May 14, 2023 23:41
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gbut posted:A bridge made out of recruiters is the one I’ll gladly burn. Every time.
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May 15, 2023 00:52
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Company doesn't care. If they did, they wouldn't be employing those clowns.
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May 15, 2023 01:01
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They might be clueless, and if they're not then that gives you more information about ever applying there again.
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May 15, 2023 01:24
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Yeah it could be there's no feedback from candidates about the process, and the company isn't going to know unless someone says something.
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May 15, 2023 01:42
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Tnuctip posted:Get to have a non fun call with a recruiter tomorrow after I was told that asking for more pay would get the offer withdrawn. And recruiters colleague who I made initial contact with emailed everyone that I was ok with the salary when i wasn’t, and as a bonus she also said I verbally accepted the offer Friday. Arquinsiel posted:Heck, I'd burn that one from both ends. Tell the recruiter to gently caress off and then throw them under the bus with the company and tell 'em that if they're having problems finding candidates then that recruiter is why. Reply all, add hiring manager if they're not on it: "I did not accept the offer on Friday, and can not accept the number given. I need $X to accept a new position. I've seen you have an opening for a Y role. If Z role isn't able to accommodate my salary needs, is the Y role still open?"
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May 15, 2023 02:50
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Is this internal recruiter or an external firm? If its the latter, rat their rear end out. You can also do that if its the former but no one will care.
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May 15, 2023 04:04
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This person lied about what you said to them. You need to nip this in the bud.
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May 15, 2023 04:07
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Ask A Manager has a post up today nicely illustrated why you should never, ever take a counter offer.quote:I turned down another job because my company promised me a raise … and now they’re not giving it to me
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May 15, 2023 20:07
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FMguru posted:Ask A Manager has a post up today nicely illustrated why you should never, ever take a counter offer. Even if you take the counter, get that poo poo in writing
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May 15, 2023 20:20
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FMguru posted:Ask A Manager has a post up today nicely illustrated why you should never, ever take a counter offer. That could also easily go the other way right now: They put in their notice at the old place, and then are told by the new place that due to hiring freezes or layoffs, the role was removed. I've heard of that happening a few times in the last 12 months. I wouldn't go for one mostly because pay is only going to be a part of why you're looking for work elsewhere.
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May 15, 2023 20:34
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I'm curious on this thread's take on my scenario. I'm coming up to my 2 year mark at a company that I've really enjoyed, in a bd / account management role that I've been satisfied with but is somewhat limited in terms of earnings potential, partially due to compensatory structure (small % of the deals I close + livable wage foundation), but mostly due to the relatively low revenue that our department generates. To make what I am hoping to earn, I would have to single handedly nearly double our departments revenue over the next few years (which is possible, but certainly not probable) in addition to modest bumps in my base salary. I've begun to get interest from other employers asking me to come interview. None of the opportunities have been strong enough for me to want to spend the time to actually get an offer, but they are suggesting total compensation of much closer to the salary I am targeting. I'm headed into my mid year review, which is more of a verbal check in than actual review. According to company rules, this is not when promotions / salary increases are doled out. How do I best leverage my interest to set myself up for a raise without actually getting an offer or holding a gun to my employers head? My boss has asked me how I might want to change our sales environment, and I have some ideas which essentially start with me becoming the sales team manager (a position that does not currently exist). (I have a feeling you all will suggest perusing and taking other opportunities, but I like my work environment and am not really trying to change it without getting some kind of dream offer. My main goals are to make money and develop professionally so my wife can be a stay at home mom)
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May 15, 2023 21:02
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just a kazoo posted:they are suggesting total compensation of much closer to the salary I am targeting. I can't answer the request of your questions, but having just done a lot of interviewing and getting offers: The suggestions and implications they make about compensation ahead of time are not really related to the actual offer you'll get. Especially because job levels and pay per job level can be all over the place. There might even be a range of job levels that you could qualify for based on the results of your interview, and that can really swing pay up or down if you qualify above/below what the recruiter thought you would get.
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May 15, 2023 21:12
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FMguru posted:Ask A Manager has a post up today nicely illustrated why you should never, ever take a counter offer. n=1 but I took a counter offer (promotion and match salary to competing company) just over a year ago and it's worked out well for me.
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May 15, 2023 21:35
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just a kazoo posted:I'm curious on this thread's take on my scenario. well first of all if you need more money in the actual review cycle you gotta start raising that now so it can be asked for, socialized, and budgeted. so have the conversation off of your midyear checkin regarding your EOY review. "clearly from the review i kick rear end and we are doing great together, so I want to make sure that's reflected in my EOY performance review and compensation package" if you are actually good at selling poo poo you can pretty much punch your own ticket in that space. i'm wary of your use of total compensation vs salary since so many sales deals tend to be highly variable so make sure you are apples-to-apples with other employers, especially if you currently have a strong floor
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May 15, 2023 21:39
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I think the best way for me to be approached is someone saying "Hey, I really like it here and want to grow but I am concerned the compensation scale is going to hold me back. Can we talk about it?" It's not confrontational and it opens the door to solve the problem over time. When people approach me in this way, I can sometimes fix it, sometimes not, but at least it gives game board that we can use to see where we can move pieces around.
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May 15, 2023 22:37
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That's super helpful, actually, I hadn't thought about presenting it that way. My instinct tells me that the structure itself is fairly solidified, but with the right approach, the conversation could at least be had. Does anyone know how sales managers are typically compensated? Do they get a small commission from all sales, or typically just a higher base salary with contingency being on the overall performance of the sales operations below them? In typing it out, it seems like bonuses based on pre set goals makes the most sense.
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May 16, 2023 00:03
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Lockback posted:I think the best way for me to be approached is someone saying "Hey, I really like it here and want to grow but I am concerned the compensation scale is going to hold me back. Can we talk about it?" This. Your employer may/should have a career track, and your touch-base or what have you should be a chance to discuss the plan and timeline for when you can expect to hit milestones and be promoted along that track. If none exist, you'll look smart for coming up with some sort of proposed timeline that suggests what you want to reach and how you can justify it ("I'd be eligible for Sales Manager Level 3 as I'd be on track to hit X amount of sales and training these types of staff. If that sounds reasonable, can we come up with a plan to submit to HR along these lines?").
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May 16, 2023 00:16
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All of our employers are exploiting us unless you work in a co-op. The best way to get a raise is changing jobs. Trying to get one internally just puts a target on your back ime.
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May 16, 2023 00:25
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just a kazoo posted:That's super helpful, actually, I hadn't thought about presenting it that way. My instinct tells me that the structure itself is fairly solidified, but with the right approach, the conversation could at least be had. I've seen it go both ways. I think its more common that a bigger bulk of the compensation is in bonuses/targets but by how much depends a lot on organizations. I think part of the reason you can approach the compensation conversation how I suggested is you can talk about if your in the right place at the company, of if there's a different role that might be slated in a better way for you. Corla Plankun posted:All of our employers are exploiting us unless you work in a co-op. The best way to get a raise is changing jobs. Trying to get one internally just puts a target on your back ime. I mean, I think most of us have experiences getting significant raises and promotions without being fired shortly afterward, and I can tell you in most corporate environments managers/directors/most senior leadership don't really care what an individual is making. It just...doesn't affect us. I'm not getting too riled up when someone is overpaid. I'm giving a top line budget and I can tell you its FAR easier managing that than it is trying to run on the hamster wheel of attrition and hiring. The truth of upper management is it's far less malicious and far more banal and unfeeling. Directors aren't angry or vindictive if someone is overpaid, they mostly just don't care. Same if you're underpaid, which is why I give advice to advocate for yourself in a way that everyone gets what they want. Obviously leaving is always an option and very frequently its the right move, but it's not 2021 anymore and a lot of people are valuing stability over jumps into the unknown. You can always keep an eye out at the market while looking to move ahead where you're at. These things are not exclusionary.
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May 16, 2023 20:24
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Lockback posted:The truth of upper management is it's far less malicious and far more banal and unfeeling. The Banality of Don’t be evil.
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May 17, 2023 02:02
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I don't think the OP was saying you have to be a cartoon villain to be exploitative. Just because directors shrug and say "it's just business" instead of being angry or vindictive doesn't somehow make things all that much better.
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May 17, 2023 04:13
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I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but I have a question about preventing myself from looking like an idiot: I'm currently employed at a job I like quite a bit. There have been a couple rounds of layoffs recently, but my job is currently safe. That said, because I know how places are super layoff-happy right now, I figured I'd shop around to see what was out there and if something seemed like a sweet deal I'd pursue it. In reality, I'm quite happy where I am now, I make great money for where I live, and I wouldn't even be actively looking if the layoff situation didn't exist- basically I'm extremely willing to walk from anything that isn't an objectively better (paying) job. Right now I'm two interviews deep into a job opportunity that I feel kind of lukewarm on. I'm not willing to leave my current job for less than $130k. This place initially told me their budget was $75k-$97k a few weeks ago and I passed, but they called me back and said they had raised it from $80k-$120k after hearing that it was under market from several candidates. I agreed to move further in the interview process out of curiosity even though the top end of their budget is still lower than what I'd consider. It also comes with 1 week less PTO (my current job just switched to "unlimited" this year, but we had 19 days of PTO previously and I plan on taking approximately that same amount while we're at unlimited). The only reason I'm still interviewing with them right now is on the off-chance that they like me enough that they up their budget. My question: If I get an offer and it's only $120k (or less), will I seem like an insane person if I counter at $130k (or $135k hoping for 130) and an extra week of PTO? That seems like a wild ask from my end, but maybe it's not as bad as I think it is. I'm 100% fine with walking away (they haven't wooed me yet)- this is purely because this company is in the same industry I am and I didn't want to be known as someone who's nuts in case I applied to work for them or another company who's close with them in the future. EDIT: After typing this all out, it became pretty clear to me that I don't really want this job, but my question still stands just in case that changes after my next interview. m0therfux0r fucked around with this message at 15:20 on May 17, 2023 |
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May 17, 2023 15:13
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