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Lord_Magmar posted:Which boss is this, because I've never seen it. not during bosses because those are very scripted. it's during mob pulls when the trash have aoes
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May 9, 2023 15:20
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Oneiros posted:not during bosses because those are very scripted. it's during mob pulls when the trash have aoes Ahhhh, they're usually fine with the trash pulls unless you force them to double pull (which is part of them being slow) they're not designed for double pulling. Dareon posted:I ragequit trying to level my trusts last night because I had a stack marker and they ran away from me. Why didn't you follow them? (This does suck, they're pre-programmed to stand in specific locations for stack markers, especially if it's the second boss of the first Shadowbringers dungeon).
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May 9, 2023 15:22
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during bosses they will definitely eat poo poo while they stand still casting, tho it took like three runs at storge before urianger made it thru intact
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May 9, 2023 15:23
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They don't react well when multiple mechanics overlap. Most of the time they're tightly scripted but a few mechs are still random in the trust dungeons so they can rarely get into a position where running to the safe spot for mechanic A puts them in a danger spot for mechanic B. And yeah, if they are already casting something when a mechanic begins, they will finish the cast before dodging. And they don't react to what you do at all, so you can easily murder them with stuff a player would try to run away from. I managed to get all three during the last boss of Hero's Gauntlet
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May 9, 2023 15:25
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IIRC in the 89 trial each party member is designed to biff on one of the mechanics
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May 9, 2023 15:26
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the fact that thirty minute trust runs are a viable alternative for dps waiting for a df party to fill because the dev team can't make healing interesting or treat the crippling social anxiety stopping people from tanking is, uh, not good
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May 9, 2023 15:26
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Oneiros posted:during bosses they will definitely eat poo poo while they stand still casting, tho That's basically only the healers, nobody else will stand and attempt to cast except Alisaie and Estinien (who are programmed to be greedy DPS which is kind of fun). Oneiros posted:the fact that thirty minute trust runs are a viable alternative for dps waiting for a df party to fill because the dev team can't make healing interesting or treat the crippling social anxiety stopping people from tanking is, uh, not good Are we talking the trust system, which is designed to somewhat assist in solo levelling, or the duty support system, which is intended to make the story feel better and allow a solo mode in the case that the game loses more players than its existing methods of helping people complete the MSQ can handle. Healing being interesting or not doesn't really make any difference to healer numbers, WoW has far more interesting healing designs and it's still not very popular. Tanking Anxiety isn't something you can actually treat in game either, not really. Like, they probably should incentivise playing healer and tank more, but there's basically no way to get players actually interested if they're not interested in the first place. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:33 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 15:27
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Oneiros posted:i find it kinda weird how people just dismiss dungeons as garbage content that doesn't matter I mean, it's because it's the truth. Dungeons have to be simple, and easily completable by people who struggle to even hit a button every GCD. They can't make them difficult or really challenging at all.
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May 9, 2023 15:28
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I did a bunch of runs of aetherochemical research facility with duty support because it's a quick 20 min and gives you 150 poetics, so all in all it's a great option for leveling DPS classes from like 60-63 the second boss has a mechanic where it binds you and then attacks for massive damage unless one other person gets into your AOE in time to share damage. If you're doing it in Duty Support you just have to hope the attack doesn't target you because your AI party members will just not get into the AOE with you and it's basically a wipe if you're not a tank. that's the only instance I can think of where the AI in this game just truly fails
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May 9, 2023 15:33
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I mean, it's because it's the truth. Dungeons have to be simple, and easily completable by people who struggle to even hit a button every GCD. They can't make them difficult or really challenging at all. [gives coincounter aoe markers] [everyone dies to the Cyclops in anamnesis anyder at level 80 and hundreds of hours in the game anyway]
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May 9, 2023 15:34
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Oneiros posted:[gives coincounter aoe markers] And making the dungeons more difficult will help this situation how? Like, they've attempted the teaching, the aoe markers are consistent and mechanics barely change from late Heavensward onwards. Some people are just bad, and you can either make the game completable, or you can drive them away. It barely effects me because I don't find dungeons interesting even when difficult, their design is too linear for that (and that won't go away even if the difficulty goes up). Hopefully they keep making Critertion/Variant Dungeons, those are pretty fun and reasonably difficult for 1-4 player content. And hey, if AI make the dungeons more difficult because they're not good, there's an option right there. One that even has fun story moments between the AI options sometimes to add to the narrative/world.
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May 9, 2023 15:37
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I gently caress up mechanics I've seen a hundred times before because I am a human who is bad at games and there's nothing you can do about it
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May 9, 2023 15:41
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there are people so bad at the video game they cannot clear even with trusts so they inflict themselves on innocent players just wanting to do roulettes, and i will make them unsub
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May 9, 2023 15:43
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i guess the question is how many people you're actually forcing out vs encouraging to actually engage with the gameplay. i feel like the devs have definitely come down on one side of that argument, to the point that i'm dealing with players in fuckin' savage who don't know that feint reduces raidwide magic damage
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May 9, 2023 15:43
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To be fair, that is a relatively recent change
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May 9, 2023 15:45
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To be further fair, people in Savage should be engaging with the game, that's the content where the expectation is engagement even in PF. If they're not engaging, that's on them, not the game, since they're opting into content where the baseline expectation is knowing what the gently caress you're doing. You could certainly argue the game is bad at explaining what you're doing, but like, the abilities do explain everything they do if you read them. Feint literally says "reduces physical damage by 10% and magical by 5%" even if the 5% thing is a recent change. The MSQ is engaging on a story level, there is content in the game that is intended to have players engage with the deeper mechanics and gameplay and it is opt in. If they're opting in and not engaging, that's on them. Also Savage needing stuff like Feint in anything but week 1 hasn't been historically super true regardless. The fact P8S Phase 2 needs an actual order for raidwide defensives is relatively unique, as I understand it. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:51 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 15:48
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Warriors aren't even unique in Bozja, my BLM solo farms two camps of clusters without a break or risk and has soloed Red Comet no problem.
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May 9, 2023 15:50
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I'm a healer main, but I've still leveled and play everything. I'm glad any of the four tanks can basically make the healer irrelevant in dungeons. I've seen way, way too many runs where the healer only has Cure 1 on their bar, or they'll just end up eating dirt on any moderately interesting mechanic. Even before Endwalker you could typically limp through a dungeon with this sort of healer, but it was rough. Tanks have always been strong enough and self sustaining enough to fill in the gaps. Bloodwhetting really isn't a huge change in that regard, but it's made for some pretty awesome saves. On the other hand, the opposite is still true. Many a time I've pulled two dps through dungeons as a healer when the tank was absolute garbage. You know the type. Somehow geared enough to join but still dies instantly in a stiff breeze. Less common than a terrible healer maybe, but still not rare, and has been the case since ARR. And that's good. The success of a story dungeon should not be made or broken on the back of a single bad player. If that makes dungeons too easy for you, there's plenty of harder stuff where you have to flex your skills.
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May 9, 2023 15:52
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feint reducing magic damage has been a thing for well over a year now the fact that the game gives you dozens of buttons but no meaningful incentive to press them in the vast majority of content is how we end up with people in exdr who can't find their aoe buttons
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May 9, 2023 15:55
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Even in savage you don't really need to use jobs at their full potential and it's still possible to clear entire tiers like that (although for the last tier, this wasn't entirely true for roles such as healers and tanks). I think I really started to appreciate jobs in their totality when I started doing ultimate raiding, and so far I've only done the 70 ultimates, so I'm not even using the full potential toolkit that the jobs I have played have to offer. In my experience at least, P8SP2 and UCOB were the only fights I have tanked that actually had me think about exact mitigation plans for my CDs since otherwise I would die (or stress my healers unduly). Also I have to say that once I got into Ultimates, savage fights started to feel a little bit lethargic in places. Ultimates tend to have very short, infrequent periods where the boss isn't doing something you have to react to, and mechanisms tend to follow each other relatively quickly, while in comparison, Savage tends to have relatively long pauses between mechanisms.
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May 9, 2023 15:56
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I'm a healer main, but I've still leveled and play everything. I'm glad any of the four tanks can basically make the healer irrelevant in dungeons. I've seen way, way too many runs where the healer only has Cure 1 on their bar, or they'll just end up eating dirt on any moderately interesting mechanic. Even before Endwalker you could typically limp through a dungeon with this sort of healer, but it was rough. Tanks have always been strong enough and self sustaining enough to fill in the gaps. Bloodwhetting really isn't a huge change in that regard, but it's made for some pretty awesome saves. Yeah this, frankly a good healer invalidates a bad tank and vice versa, that's intentional, since both roles are absolutely necessary for automated dungeon finder. DPS meanwhile basically only change how fast a dungeon goes, and can help shore up a weak healer and tank combo by reducing the time a trash pull lasts. Both of the support roles are beyond overpowered for dungeons, because they have tools for Savage Fights, where they need 12 defensive cooldowns and healer cooldowns. Imagine if Dungeons needed all your defensives/healing cooldowns to complete, rather than using all of them making it trivial. Maybe they could require more, but that seems hard to truly determine accurately. Oneiros posted:feint reducing magic damage has been a thing for well over a year now There is no way to meaningfully incentivise pressing these buttons, you can lead a horse to water you cannot make it drink. Like, this is straight up the problem, the situation you're describing is not the result of dungeons demanding more than the bare minimum. The person who can't find their aoe button now isn't going to have been improved by some sort of incentive to press them earlier, they already had that incentive, the game gave them the button to read. The game gives these tools and if people want to use them they will, if they don't there's pretty much nothing the game can do to make them learn it. Now, they could improve the rate you get abilities and shift stuff around, I kind of wish they would because you don't usually get aoe buttons until really late in ARR. But people who can't find their aoe buttons in exdr weren't going to find them any sooner regardless of dungeon difficulty. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 16:02 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 15:56
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Oneiros posted:feint reducing magic damage has been a thing for well over a year now This is true but the sad reality is if you make dungeons force you to use feint or w/e or proper defensive rotations etc, you will end up with people just getting frustrated that they wasted 20mins in a dungeon only being unable to finish because the healer or tank (or both) is unable or unwilling to do things. Do you really want EXDR to be even more of a tedious chore?
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May 9, 2023 15:59
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What is even being argued at this point? I don't think making the game harder is magically going to make the people who aren't paying attention learn boss tells. If anything, it just punishes everyone who has to carry them.
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May 9, 2023 15:59
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Tekopo posted:Also I have to say that once I got into Ultimates, savage fights started to feel a little bit lethargic in places. Ultimates tend to have very short, infrequent periods where the boss isn't doing something you have to react to, and mechanisms tend to follow each other relatively quickly, while in comparison, Savage tends to have relatively long pauses between mechanisms. i'm looking forward to dipping my toe into ultimates for just this reason. even in savages i find the healing to be easy to the point of boredom (even p8s). partly that's because i usually run sage but even with something like ast or sch i feel i really just need to actually get some hours in to bake the muscle memory
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May 9, 2023 16:01
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Oneiros posted:the fact that thirty minute trust runs are a viable alternative for dps waiting for a df party to fill because the dev team can't make healing interesting or treat the crippling social anxiety stopping people from tanking is, uh, not good Which is weird, because Tanking is hands down the easiest role in XIV.
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May 9, 2023 16:03
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Do you really want EXDR to be even more of a tedious chore? exdr isn't a tedious chore i can barely pay any attention to it at all and it's done and sometimes i'll have done more dps than the entire rest of the party
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May 9, 2023 16:04
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Oneiros posted:thankfully they're adding (very bad) ai support for the bulk of the msq so no one will ever have to interact with another human being again in this mmo AI never let me die in dzemael darkhold and then proceedes to wipe because they decided to rez the dps instead FIVE TIMES
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May 9, 2023 16:04
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As someone who saw enough trusts to get the title, I like how the characters have their personalities in trusts. Yshtola never gets hit by poo poo, Alphi will always prioritize Alisaie, etc. The only ways the AI "sucks" are compromises so people wouldn't forego playing with others.
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May 9, 2023 16:05
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Arist posted:What is even being argued at this point? We started with a discussion of tank balance and ended up dangerously close to "gently caress the casuals" and humblebrags about how easy savage is
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May 9, 2023 16:05
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the_steve posted:Which is weird, because Tanking is hands down the easiest role in XIV. tanking anxiety (read: being perceived by another human being at all) is a pernicious foe
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May 9, 2023 16:06
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Also if you don't think P8S healing is at all hard I don't know what they could add to this game that would be fun for you.
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May 9, 2023 16:06
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TheWorldsaStage posted:As someone who saw enough trusts to get the title, I like how the characters have their personalities in trusts. Yshtola never gets hit by poo poo, Alphi will always prioritize Alisaie, etc. i do like the trusts for this stuff.
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May 9, 2023 16:07
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the_steve posted:Which is weird, because Tanking is hands down the easiest role in XIV. How easy or hard tanking is has never ever ever actually mattered for tanking anxiety because it's based on the actual act of being the focal point of the party that controls the pace of the dungeon. You can tell someone it's easy all day long and it'll just make them anxious about loving up the easy job. Because the issue isn't difficulty, tanking could be literally braindead and tanxiety would exist because it's the same thing as stage fright. It isn't about capability, it's about mentality, and you can't fix mentality. Relatedly this is why incentivising using aoe/defensives in dungeons doesn't work on people who aren't already interested in spending the time to learn the game.
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May 9, 2023 16:07
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Oneiros posted:i'm looking forward to dipping my toe into ultimates for just this reason. even in savages i find the healing to be easy to the point of boredom (even p8s). partly that's because i usually run sage but even with something like ast or sch i feel i really just need to actually get some hours in to bake the muscle memory
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May 9, 2023 16:07
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I think there's a general disagreement on what "the game" is, and I think it has to be acknowledged that there are a significant amount of players who have absolutely no interest whatsoever in engaging with the combat mechanics, but who want to see more of the story and also dress their cat up in funny outfits Dungeons are essentially mandatory content for these people to progress forward in any real way, so making them anything more than a thing four sleeping dogs snoring on a shared keyboard can accomplish is just not a thing the designers want to do
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May 9, 2023 16:11
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Arist posted:Also if you don't think P8S healing is at all hard I don't know what they could add to this game that would be fun for you. the "hard' part of healing p8s is having people who actually close in for aoe heals and proper mitigation from the tanks and dps i gcd shield like crazy and still hit >50% dps placement
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May 9, 2023 16:13
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FFXIV is an extremely casual game designed to be open to basically anyone, including your retired non-gaming dad, and it is also a hotbar mmo, possibly the least intuitive genre of game ever created, in a franchise where you can usually power your way through tough or complex poo poo by just grinding. I think conversation in this thread often (understandably) doesn't quite reflect the reality that you can go on Twitter during basically any patch launch and find people who are sincerely trying but e.g. simply cannot handle storm's crown normal (which caused a fair amount of consternation in some circles for its difficulty). I somewhat doubt we have anyone in this thread who's even in like the bottom third of players in this game, the range of skill levels is that extreme. people are sometimes very bad at this video game, and being bad at FFXIV is not supposed to prevent you from seeing the MSQ. tanks and healers being fairly OP for normal content is a design decision that enables bad players to play those classes and still contribute, or at least not prevent groups from finishing. I've yet to see anyone rage out in an FFXIV dungeon in like over a hundred hours of playtime and the fact that a semi-competent WAR can completely cover for a bad healer, or a decent healer can cover for a bad tank (or completely obviate the need for one if you have a good maiming player) is an intentional design that helps contribute to that chill status quo.
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May 9, 2023 16:13
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Oneiros posted:i had urianger eat poo poo dealing with regular boss mechanics more than any human healer who didn't buy a level skip to shb This sounds a lot like the more difficult content people are clamoring for.
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May 9, 2023 16:14
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I think that the hard content is entirely optional, and doesn't have any story content (DSR doesn't count) is really good, as well as the fact that there is a fairly good path in terms of difficulty of going from really easy content up to really difficult content. Alliance raids, normal raids and eventually Extremes are really good stepping stones IMO.
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May 9, 2023 16:14
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it's incredible how many times i've watched people die to unavoidable damage in the high concepts, the mechanic where you maybe need to stand next to someone else to do the fusion dance and then walk to your tower. half a minute without any heals going out.
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May 9, 2023 16:16
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