[Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

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genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

The West's policy is to maximize asymmetry in the trade relation while China wants to maximize robustness so as not to be cut off.

# ? May 9, 2023 14:49

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# ? May 27, 2024 20:48

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

stephenthinkpad posted:

China isn't planning to get rip of her manufacturing industries any time soon, so securing energy and raw material long term contract at the source is important.

Man, why doesn't China want to advance to the next stage the economy? ...pure finance...

# ? May 9, 2023 15:08

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

dk2m posted:

until the stock market crash plunged Germany into hyperinflation as they defaulted on interest payments.

This is very oft-repeated bullshit. Germany did not experience hyperinflation following the stock market crash of '29.

German hyperinflation took place between '21 and '23. It was caused by the Weimar government deliberately devaluing the Papiermark because the German state owed war reparations denominated in non-German currency. So the Weimar government bought foreign currency by printing as much Papiermark as was required to buy it. When this eventually made the Papiermark entirely worthless, Belgium and France occupied the Rhineland as reparations instead, and also demanded further reparations payments in goods. The Weimar government called for a general strike in the occupied Rhineland in response, and continued to pay the workers by printing yet more Papiermark.

The hyperinflation was solved by 1924 by abolishing the Papiermark and issuing a new currency, the Reichsmark.

Edit:
As for the reparations this was solved through the Dawes plan and later the Young plan, where as you say the US through JP Morgan basically lent Germany dollars to pay back France/UK/Belgium. This worked until the '29 crash. The eventual solution was the Nazi German state defaulting on what was left of the debt entirely. This amounted to a default on about 7/8ths of the original debt.

Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 15:27 on May 9, 2023

# ? May 9, 2023 15:16

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

DancingShade posted:

edit - wait I just remembered it was the Dutch who gave Ukraine their entire artillery park lol

I know it's easy to get nazis with congenital speech impediments mixed up, but that was Denmark, not the Netherlands.

And we sourced some new ones from Israel, so it's fine.

# ? May 9, 2023 15:31

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

war good

# ? May 9, 2023 16:11

dk2m: May 6, 2009

Orange Devil posted:

This is very oft-repeated bullshit. Germany did not experience hyperinflation following the stock market crash of '29.

German hyperinflation took place between '21 and '23. It was caused by the Weimar government deliberately devaluing the Papiermark because the German state owed war reparations denominated in non-German currency. So the Weimar government bought foreign currency by printing as much Papiermark as was required to buy it. When this eventually made the Papiermark entirely worthless, Belgium and France occupied the Rhineland as reparations instead, and also demanded further reparations payments in goods. The Weimar government called for a general strike in the occupied Rhineland in response, and continued to pay the workers by printing yet more Papiermark.

The hyperinflation was solved by 1924 by abolishing the Papiermark and issuing a new currency, the Reichsmark.

Edit:
As for the reparations this was solved through the Dawes plan and later the Young plan, where as you say the US through JP Morgan basically lent Germany dollars to pay back France/UK/Belgium. This worked until the '29 crash. The eventual solution was the Nazi German state defaulting on what was left of the debt entirely. This amounted to a default on about 7/8ths of the original debt.

I apologize - you�re right, had my time periods mixed up. the period after the crash was austerity due to lack of U.S. dollar liquidity, not hyperinflation.

the Germans basically dumped their currency in the open market post ww1 to raise debt relief due to their inability to obtain USD, due to US policy. That led to a vicious cycle of further debt trap as the cost of money increases due to a falling currency rate.

# ? May 9, 2023 16:15

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

dk2m posted:

I apologize - you’re right, had my time periods mixed up. the period after the crash was austerity due to lack of U.S. dollar liquidity, not hyperinflation.

the Germans basically dumped their currency in the open market post ww1 to raise debt relief due to their inability to obtain USD, due to US policy. That led to a vicious cycle of further debt trap as the cost of money increases due to a falling currency rate.

Remember getting pretty mad in the 2010s when the Euros were arguing we need austerity because debt -> hyperinflation->Hitler when it was actually austerity->Hitler.

# ? May 9, 2023 16:23

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I think it�s liberals �> Hitler if I am reading history right

# ? May 9, 2023 16:24

speng31b: May 8, 2010

redneck nazgul posted:

war good

i have queued up a gift for you for this

# ? May 9, 2023 16:27

Cookie Cutter: Nov 29, 2020; Is there something else that's bothering you Mr. President?

euphronius posted:

I think it�s liberals �> Hitler if I am reading history right

Losurdo's account found

# ? May 9, 2023 16:28

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

dk2m posted:

I apologize - you�re right, had my time periods mixed up. the period after the crash was austerity due to lack of U.S. dollar liquidity, not hyperinflation.

the Germans basically dumped their currency in the open market post ww1 to raise debt relief due to their inability to obtain USD, due to US policy. That led to a vicious cycle of further debt trap as the cost of money increases due to a falling currency rate.

Sorta right, except with the Dawes Plan and especially later the Young Plan the US didn't act like the kind of predatory debt entrapper we all know and love today. It was primarily France who insisted on keeping Germany in an absolute vice lock which led the Weimar government to destroy its own currency and then having the Rhineland occupied. Also Germany wasn't so much trying to get USD as either gold or any hard currency (aka not Papiermark) with which to repay France, the UK, Belgium and the US.

Though to be fair to the French, since WW1 was fought primarily on French and Belgian soil in the west, this meant a good portion of its industrial base had been wrecked, and the country was going to be spending a lot more industrial capacity on repairing the damage (huge swathes of Northern France remain inaccessible due to mass UXO to this day), while Germany's industrial base was largely untouched. This meant Germany was going to have a much better post-war position from which to further develop and prepare for the next war than France was. Which isn't exactly the kind of position you want to find yourself in as victor of a war.

Contrast with Ukraine today. Imagine if Russia did come out and say "you know what, we actually are completely out of ammo, let's call this whole war quits, we'll retreat back to our borders". Ukraine has actually been in large part destroyed. Russia hasn't been. Would Ukraine or the West be ok with the war just ending and leaving Russia the capacity to rearm and resupply? No, hence all the maps floating around of Russia being split into tiny pieces.

The fundamental issue here is that as long as at least one of the countries involved is an imperialist country seeing itself as locked in an imperialist struggle with its competitors there will be no peace. Any peace agreement is but an armistice, and final victory looks like either the complete subjugation or the complete eradication of the competitor to the imperialist power.

Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 16:33 on May 9, 2023

# ? May 9, 2023 16:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

euphronius posted:

liberals �> Hitler

# ? May 9, 2023 16:30

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018; Can't post for 5 hours!

euphronius posted:

I think it�s liberals �> Hitler if I am reading history right

whats a liberal

# ? May 9, 2023 16:30

speng31b: May 8, 2010

euphronius posted:

I think it�s liberals 8===D Hitler if I am reading history right

# ? May 9, 2023 16:31

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

speng31b posted:

i have queued up a gift for you for this

# ? May 9, 2023 16:33

Spergin Morlock: Aug 8, 2009

Cookie Cutter posted:

Losurdo's account found

the photographer?

# ? May 9, 2023 16:36

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

AnimeIsTrash posted:

whats a liberal

A fascist in disguise?

# ? May 9, 2023 16:36

Cookie Cutter: Nov 29, 2020; Is there something else that's bothering you Mr. President?

Spergin Morlock posted:

the photographer?

Nah, Dominico Losurdo, author of "Liberalism: a Counter History" which draws that historical connection in fine granular detail and I highly recommend

# ? May 9, 2023 16:37

tristeham: Jul 31, 2022

euphronius posted:

I think it�s liberals �> Hitler if I am reading history right

that's right

# ? May 9, 2023 17:16

sum: Nov 15, 2010

Long article from Ukraine's Economic Pravda on budget cuts hitting the civil services. The TL;DR is that recent slashes to bonuses is causing mass resignations in Ukraine's state bureaucracies, and those who can afford to stay are often corrupt. Probably not the ideal way to run a state in wartime but hey easy for me to say.
https://www.epravda.com.ua/rus/publications/2023/05/8/699793/

quote:

There is not enough money for everyone, civil servants are being laid off en masse. What is happening?
Economic Pravda

The government began to save money on officials. Since the beginning of 2023, it has stopped paying allowances to employees of most executive authorities. Reform is needed.

For the second year now, Ukraine has been living in conditions of total lack of funds. Despite unprecedented amounts of international aid, the government has to resort to unpopular measures to save revenues and finance expenditures, primarily defense.

One of these measures was the cancellation of allowances in the amount of UAH 30,000 per month for the vast majority of military, police, cadets and conscripts who do not perform combat missions.

The discussion surrounding this decision managed to grow into a political overtone: some opposition deputies tried to return the surcharges by passing a law. As a source of funding, it was proposed to limit salaries in the public sector to UAH 67,000.

Although the signing of the law was blocked by the deputies themselves, the state began to save money on officials. According to EP sources, from the beginning of 2023, it stopped paying allowances to employees of most executive authorities. This led to a wave of layoffs.

Employees who remain in the public service now have to do much more work for significantly less money. How will this affect the efficiency of the state machine?

There is not enough money for everyone

"In the first year of the war, there were no problems with pay. What's more, in the most critical moments, we were paid 5-6 thousand hryvnias more than usual, in order to keep the team and their families afloat," Oleksiy shares with EP , an employee of the central office of one of the ministries.

In 2023, the situation changed. "Since January 1, my colleagues and I have been receiving almost "bare" salaries: only paid taxes (about 20% of the rate) are compensated with allowances. They say there is no money for more," he shows a message from the bank about the enrollment of UAH 6,300 - half April salary.

Various allowances, in particular for the intensity of work, years of service, scientific degree, can amount to 70% of the salary that the official receives. Therefore, their reduction significantly hits the wallets of civil servants who are used to a certain level of income.

The situation in Oleksiy's ministry is not unique. The EP spoke with representatives of government institutions, in particular those responsible for personnel policy, and heard the same stories everywhere.

In 2023, expenditures on labor compensation funds in central government bodies were significantly reduced. This caused some tension between the Ministry of Finance, which forms the budget, and other ministries. It is no wonder that in the Ministry of Finance itself, the situation with payments to employees is not much better: the expenses for the wage fund there are to be reduced by 10% this year - to 425.47 million hryvnias.

In accordance with the law , in 2023, the state will reduce spending on the apparatuses of all civil departments. Expenditures for the Ministry of Economy will decrease by 8% compared to 2022 to UAH 431.3 million, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs � by 10% to UAH 275.6 million, the Ministry of Health � by 23% to UAH 115.6 million, the Ministry of Statistics � by 9% to UAH 173, 7 million hryvnias.

Despite the better situation with international funding, which will arrive more rhythmically in 2023, Ukraine still barely has enough funds to finance even military expenditures.

Since the beginning of the year, the government has spent 250-300 billion hryvnias every month. The government covered only a third of this amount with its own revenues (taxes, fees, internal borrowing). The rest is financed by international partners. Ukraine cannot spend external financing on war.

It is not surprising that the austerity regime reached the wage funds of the ministries. For many civil servants, this came as a complete surprise, especially considering the traditionally low level of salaries. At the beginning of 2023, the central departments of the ministries, with representatives of which the EP spoke, were faced with a difficult choice.

"Ministries can either reduce the staff, or the positions of reform specialists, or not pay bonuses. They resort to all three options at the same time," says one of the government members.

Unexpected difficulties with financing, which arose in the conditions of the increased workload of wartime, further aggravated the long-standing problem of the Ukrainian public sector - the shortage of personnel.

All out?

Since the summer of 2022, Ukrainian government officials have nurtured the idea of a global civil service reform. According to the plan, thanks to digitalization, consolidation of general functions (accounting, personnel departments), unification of ministries and some departments, the state apparatus should be reduced by half. This would save the budget up to UAH 12 billion per year.

The reform concept was developed by the Ministry of Statistics and presented at the conference on the reconstruction of Ukraine in Lugano, Switzerland. However, the implementation of this reform almost did not budge.

Neither the introduction of clear KPIs, nor changes in the employee remuneration system, nor the outsourcing of certain functions in the bureaucratic apparatus took place. Instead, the state began to cut spending on it.

The consequences of the change in financing approaches were not long in coming. In recent months, many specialists have left the government teams, for whom the state does not have time to find replacements.

According to the National Civil Service Agency, in January-March 2023 (the latest available data), almost 10,500 employees left the central executive authorities, courts and local administrations. 9,900 people came to replace them.

In order not to lose particularly valuable employees, some departments send them on layoff for a few days a month, keeping their salary and allowances. However, not everyone manages to retain specialists.

Staffing problems also reached the initiator of the reduction in funding - the Ministry of Finance. According to the interlocutors of the EP in this department, over the past few months, dozens of qualified specialists from the most critical areas have resigned.

This is indirectly confirmed by the Ministry of Finance itself, which has recently been actively inviting citizens to an "open door day" or directly posting a list of vacant positions on its social networks.

Among other things, the Ministry of Finance is looking for a deputy head of the department of cooperation with the IMF, specialists in the department of capitalization of state banks and the department of implementation of tax reforms.

In response to the EP's request, the Ministry of Finance noted that the size of the wage funds in state bodies was established during the adoption of the budget for 2023. At the same time, each ministry or department independently decides how exactly to distribute this money. "All payments stipulated by the legislation are established in accordance with the order (order) of the head of the civil service in the state body," the Ministry of Finance said.

Before these layoffs, the state lacked tens of thousands of workers. Now the situation has only worsened. According to the NADS, at the beginning of 2022, more than 32,000 of more than 207,000 positions were vacant. In the first quarter of 2023, the number of vacancies exceeded 35,000.

Many former officials go to the non-state sector, where they work for grants in the same fields. There they have a much lower level of responsibility and workload and at the same time higher salaries. Specialists who came to the public service from business are returning.

One of the unintended consequences of the public sector pay cuts is that many ex-servicemen have decided to swap their desks and computers for automatons when they join the Defense Forces. At the beginning of 2023, there were almost 4 thousand such people.

What will happen to the civil service

"Only in my department, where 20 people are supposed to work, five people quit. In other departments, the situation is the same. Sometimes even the heads of divisions are fired. The main reason is a decrease in salaries," says Oleksiy and adds that he himself is thinking about changing jobs .

It is likely that the outflow of personnel from the civil service will only increase. The more people leave, the greater the burden on those who remain. This additionally motivates to change jobs or perform duties less efficiently.

"Some deputy ministers complain that employees refuse to work. The management expects them to respond 24/7, but at the same time the salary is significantly reduced," the member of the Cabinet of Ministers notes.

Not everyone resigns from the civil service. Those whose work provided access to corruption rents are holding on to their seats. If they leave, their release turns into a drama series. What is the story of the dismissal of the deputy head of the State Customs Service, Ruslan Cherkaskyi , who was publicly suspected of bribery by the people's deputies.

"It's a classic story: when there are problems with salaries, bad employees are ready to hang on, because they simply don't need the money. They carry suitcases of cash to law enforcement officers and their bosses every month, just to stay. Those who don't take bribes, of course, leave." - says Maksym Nefyodov, head of reform support projects at the Kyiv School of Economics.

Civil servants mostly understand the reasons for reducing expenses for their maintenance, because currently the priority for the country is to provide for the military. Many are willing to work for this goal, even receiving a reduced salary. The problem is that not all officials have enough internal resources and savings.

"No one doubts that the most important thing is to provide defense. But can the country exist without a high-quality civil service? Someone must correctly purchase food for the military, regulate the import of drones, resolve issues related to the crisis in the fuel market, power outages, and logistics , evacuation of business," Nefiodov adds.

It is unlikely that these and other tasks will be effectively performed by people whose salary is barely enough for food and utilities. It is obvious that the civil service needs to be radically reformed. The concept of such a reform lies with the government. The main thing is not to postpone the transformation, because soon there may not be any people left in the civil service who will be able to implement it.

sum has issued a correction as of 17:29 on May 9, 2023

# ? May 9, 2023 17:23

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

sum posted:

Long article from Ukraine's Economic Pravda on budget cuts hitting the civil services. The TL;DR is that recent slashes to bonuses is causing mass resignations in Ukraine's state bureaucracies, and those who can afford to stay are often corrupt. Probably not the ideal way to run a state in wartime but hey easy for me to say.
https://www.epravda.com.ua/publications/2022/07/4/688781/

sounds like their bloated, overpaid administration needed some much needed firings and salary reductions

also, the article is from last year

# ? May 9, 2023 17:26

sum: Nov 15, 2010

bedpan posted:

sounds like their bloated, overpaid administration needed some much needed firings and salary reductions

also, the article is from last year

I linked the wrong article in the URL, the article is from yesterday. But yeah the Economic Pravda's preferred solution is doing some kinda technodigital "streamlining" in the middle of a war.

# ? May 9, 2023 17:30

really queer Christmas: Apr 22, 2014

AnimeIsTrash posted:

whats a liberal

A miserable pile of privatizations

# ? May 9, 2023 17:32

speng31b: May 8, 2010

Orange Devil posted:

A fascist in disguise?

got stuck in my head the transformers "robots in disguise" music with these lyrics now

# ? May 9, 2023 17:33

lobster shirt: Jun 14, 2021

AnimeIsTrash posted:

whats a liberal

ur-hitler

# ? May 9, 2023 17:37

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

Just let IMF and Nobel winning economist go in and clean house.

# ? May 9, 2023 18:01

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/1655875109616332800?t=tzMf87AahqjAbgt6uSxHew&s=19

# ? May 9, 2023 18:02

Turtle Sandbox: Dec 31, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Frosted Flake posted:

If my wife ever snitches on me for posting crimes I’m probably hosed, which is insane

You can't have freedom of speech, don't you know we are at war with Russia?

# ? May 9, 2023 18:06

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/1655875109616332800?t=tzMf87AahqjAbgt6uSxHew&s=19

the level of derangement and psychosis on display is truly astounding

# ? May 9, 2023 18:09

Turtle Sandbox: Dec 31, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Frosted Flake posted:

Still incomprehensible as the legislature, police and of course Militia and Regulars were Anglos, which was considered a major part of why Quebec feels the reaction was so harsh.

Wasn’t July 10 a holiday in parts of Quebec until this century?

e: What frustrates me is that my wife, peers, friends, believe that the harsher the penalty for something is, the more wrong it is, if you follow. So if you throw the book at people for posting, then posting is a serious crime good people don’t do and must be abhorred.

What’s more frustrating is that I’m a straight shooter that gave my entire adult life and the back end of my adolescence to this country, they’re the ones that made me study military history, so a literal SS division can’t be blanked from my mind. I’m not sure how I’m falling outside the lines here, I do it all for the King.

It's the final part of your personal sacrifice.

# ? May 9, 2023 18:24

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Al-Saqr posted:

the level of derangement and psychosis on display is truly astounding

There�s no point in getting upset but guess who he is counting as killed Ukrainian civilians and guess who killed them

# ? May 9, 2023 18:25

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Every time I see that guys name I momentarily think of dee snyder and get a bit confused

# ? May 9, 2023 18:26

platzapS: Aug 4, 2007

Starsfan posted:

Happy Victory Day everyone, a day to celebrate the victory of the Soviet Union over Nazism.

Personally I'm glad Stalin ended the Holocaust. Some people disagree. Freedom to have different opinions is what makes this country great.

# ? May 9, 2023 18:28

Minenfeld!: Aug 21, 2012

Victory Day is a failure there was only a T-34/85 today.

# ? May 9, 2023 18:36

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

https://twitter.com/officialFZZY/status/1655872896663707648?s=19
Lol

# ? May 9, 2023 18:37

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/1655875109616332800?t=tzMf87AahqjAbgt6uSxHew&s=19

Back then they were sovietians

Slava sovietia

# ? May 9, 2023 18:54

HallelujahLee: May 3, 2009

kids going hungry in my neo-liberal shithole

fake news chud

# ? May 9, 2023 18:55

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Angrily writing a letter to my city council that the stock image of "construction worker and hardhat" on their website isn't real

# ? May 9, 2023 19:00

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

It's brown kids doing child labour and going hungry, so it's fine.

# ? May 9, 2023 19:08

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# ? May 27, 2024 20:48

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

sum posted:

Probably not the ideal way to run a state in wartime but hey easy for me to say.

Do militaries really NEED states to function? We'll just extend lines of credit to the army directly and hire contractors to go in and shanghai more conscripts.

# ? May 9, 2023 19:09

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

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