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CherryCola posted:Wait are people unhappy about this??? Adore loving rules, and it might be my second favorite Pumpkins record
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May 9, 2023 01:10
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Noise Machine posted:Adore loving rules, and it might be my second favorite Pumpkins record I read an interview where Billy said he thought he should have ended the band when Jimmy left and I just can’t imagine not having Adore. A friend gave it to me for my 16th birthday and boy I cannot even tell you how many times I listed to Daphne Descends on repeat. I also went to sleep to Behold! The Nightmare, For Martha and Blank Page on rotation constantly. I don’t even know what I would compare this album to, it’s just really unique.
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May 9, 2023 01:25
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CherryCola posted:Wait are people unhappy about this??? It was in response about what Baron shared about Billy's reasoning for leaving LMGTWTY off Adore, and imo Perfect is a more unusual fit for the album (and as a single) in comparison. Just pointing out the odd decision is all, I'm very much a big fan of Adore and personally think it was way ahead of the time and that Billy essentially pulled a Kid A but years before people were ready and without the media treating the record as fairly as they should. CherryCola posted:I read an interview where Billy said he thought he should have ended the band when Jimmy left and I just can’t imagine not having Adore.  I am very glad that he did not do that, but for him to look back at Adore & Machina and think "Yeah, those never should have happened" is wild to me because they're masterpieces. Bit of a sensitive "What if...?" here but I wonder about the SP trajectory if Kurt had still been alive. I recall an interview with him after In Utero released where he touched on wanting to make very different music and something kind-of new wave? I forget his exact words but he seemed to have the intent of making a record that likely would have been as divisive as Adore. Can easily imagine an interview with Kurt saying Adore is a good album that he likes and Billy subsequently disowning the album 
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May 9, 2023 02:06
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I wasn’t a huge fan of Adore on release. The thing did not fit what the public was wanting at the time nor did it come anywhere near what they had done previously. I think Billy was desperately trying to make up for all the drama that was surrounding the band and make up for the lack of Jimmy. Listening to it again a couple months ago for the first time in 20+ years it is a lot better than I remembered it being. Granted I listened to the mono vinyl which probably helped with a lot of the production I seemed to remember not being a fan of. I think it is very much a wrong place, wrong time. The music at that time was changing rapidly where the doom and gloom just wasn’t what people were looking for. You were just coming out of the Ska/Swing revivals, right in the middle of the Fastball/Semisonic/Tonic/Barenaked Ladies pop rock domination and weeks away from the nu-metal hayday starting. Even those that listened to more “weird” stuff had more interesting stuff coming out at that time. I think had Adore came out a year earlier or a couple years later it would have been better received. Perhaps if you were able to switch Adore and Machina release dates both likely would have done better as Machina would have been a better record post Mellon Collie where in 2000 it also didn’t quite fit well with the current landscape.
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May 9, 2023 02:19
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Djarum posted:I wasn’t a huge fan of Adore on release. The thing did not fit what the public was wanting at the time nor did it come anywhere near what they had done previously. I think Billy was desperately trying to make up for all the drama that was surrounding the band and make up for the lack of Jimmy. I think he was just extremely, extremely depressed, feeling insane pressure, and also doing an insane amount of E. He got divorced, his mom died, his band fell apart, and he was supposed to follow up Mellon Collie. He had no idea what he wanted the album to be (gentle piano based acoustic songs? ambient soundscapes? electro-folk? straight up rave music?) so he just started throwing things against the wall while working with two people that largely hated him.
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May 9, 2023 02:35
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For what it's worth I do love Adore, maybe in kind of a warts-and-all way, but really I do love it. It's a record that very much saved my life because being 14 and feeling like your life is in a tailspin, it really helped to hear someone else who felt the same way. I think it was the first record I bought on release day?
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May 9, 2023 02:38
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I have vague memories of one of those old VH1 making-of episodes being dedicated to Adore, and it wasn't just focused on Billy. The one part that stuck with me is D'Arcy talking about her frustrations with Billy not communicating what he was trying to do and how difficult it made things, but when she got it and it clicked with her she was totally on board and thought it was a great direction to go in. If I remember right she highlighted that Billy didn't want to make an album that sounds like it belongs to an era or one day becomes dated and I think that stuck with me because imo the album really hasn't aged at all and they did accomplish recording something that sounds timeless. My only other recollection is James talking about how happy he was that he could walk across the street and buy carrot juice.
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May 9, 2023 02:47
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I was in love with Ava adore at the time but was admittedly not at all thrilled with the album because i was a dumb kid that also listened to limp bizkit and korn
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May 9, 2023 03:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRrnEZUL66U
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May 9, 2023 03:26
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I love that the answer was “the guitar was broken in a cool way”
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May 9, 2023 03:40
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I was also not totally down with Adore BUT I listened to it non-stop, because hey, it's New Pumpkins. Now, the soundscape of that entire album fills me with a bittersweet nostalgia for junior high, specifically 8th grade, and all of the people I don't see anymore. Some have moved away, some have passed away, but they're all still hanging out with me in my memories whenever I hear those tracks. It's like a beautiful audio painting. To Shiela is one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard. I was, like many others, expecting the loud quiet loud of MCIS, and my disappointment of not getting that got in the way of me initially enjoying the album. Nowadays, even though I'm not totally onboard with every track (Dusty and Pistol Pete? Shame?), I'm really glad it wasn't just another MCIS. I agree wholeheartedly with Djarum, regarding how Machina feels Iike it should've come after MCIS, with Adore being the band's zwan-song.
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May 9, 2023 05:16
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Machina coming after MCIS would have been the perfect scenario for the studio to agree to it being a double album as well, and Machina II has a lot of heavier tracks that would have been prime single material alongside the others. Probably would have been a huge success but Billy's ego would have reached cataclysmic levels and I am almost certain he would have started a cult 
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May 9, 2023 19:34
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SUNKOS posted:Machina coming after MCIS would have been the perfect scenario for the studio to agree to it being a double album as well, and Machina II has a lot of heavier tracks that would have been prime single material alongside the others. I mean, considering how nutso the official boards got when Machina was released, this isn't far off. The amount of time people spent looking for HIDDEN MESSAGES in the album art. I also remember at one point someone was like, if you pull your headphone jack partially out when you're listening to Machina...you get A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ALBUM. I just... Did anyone else go to their Resume the Pose meet and greet tour that happened before the actual "final tour?" I'm eternally amazed my parents dropped 9th grader me off to stand in line for 9 hours with a bunch of actual adult Smashing Pumpkins fans. I got to hug Billy Corgan though, so worth iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
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May 9, 2023 19:50
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CherryCola posted:I mean, considering how nutso the official boards got when Machina was released, this isn't far off. The amount of time people spent looking for HIDDEN MESSAGES in the album art. To be fair, there was an official "uncover the meaning of Machina" contest. Which reminds me, he picked a handful of people who got kind of close and asked them to refine their theories like it's the finals and then he'd pick a winner from there. One of the finalists was someone whose theory was just like "it means whatever you want it to mean" and then when for their final entry they left it at that they lost and Billy was like "no it doesn't, moron."
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May 9, 2023 19:58
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Baron von Eevl posted:To be fair, there was an official "uncover the meaning of Machina" contest. holy poo poo I actually completely forgot about that. I just remember people going all A Beautiful Mind on that poo poo.
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May 9, 2023 20:06
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CherryCola posted:I mean, considering how nutso the official boards got when Machina was released, this isn't far off. The amount of time people spent looking for HIDDEN MESSAGES in the album art. It had some genuinely beautiful album art, to be fair. Not many bands did much with packaging but that booklet was fantastic and although my dumb rear end didn't know it was supposed to be taken seriously or there were hidden messages to seek out, I appreciated it as a companion and compliment to the music. The only other example I can think of that springs to mind is Radiohead hiding a booklet in... Kid A, I think? That was a fun discovery at the time and another neat little treasure. Shame that kind of thing doesn't really happen any more now that music is primarily digital (I remember Thom Yorke setting up a stand with Stanley Donwood in London to hand out fake newspapers they made as promo for The King Of Limbs which was cool) but it would be neat if some artists found ways to replicate that sort of thing somehow. I've no idea how, though v  v
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May 9, 2023 20:19
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SUNKOS posted:It had some genuinely beautiful album art, to be fair. Not many bands did much with packaging but that booklet was fantastic and although my dumb rear end didn't know it was supposed to be taken seriously or there were hidden messages to seek out, I appreciated it as a companion and compliment to the music. The only other example I can think of that springs to mind is Radiohead hiding a booklet in... Kid A, I think? That was a fun discovery at the time and another neat little treasure. Well the vinyl revival has started to bring back interesting cover art again. I know I really enjoy being able to have it, especially on stuff that wasn’t really released on vinyl back when it was current. Sadly some rereleases have more care done to them in that respect than others. Frankly I was always amazed that no one took advantage of what you could do with album art when everything went digital. Having art that was animated or interactive should have been something that people experimented with but as far as I know no one has ever really done.
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May 9, 2023 20:31
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Tool released their last album on CD that came with a rechargeable LCD screen that played some animation. I’m sure it’ll be on YouTube, let me look… This is apparently an upscale of the animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=464bNjXGLbo
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May 9, 2023 23:05
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Adore is my favourite SP album by a mile but it took me a long time to get there. Hearing songs like Blank Page and Shame played live at a Triple J gig really helped me "get it". It's an album I have to sit down and listen to all the way through though. I didn't know about LMGTWTY being an Adore track initially, it does make sense though. Ava Adore was a good single pick for Adore, and I love Perfect but wasn't a good single choice to represent the album. And tying the video to 1979 would have pissed people off even further. Now, Appels + Oranjes wouldn't have represented the rest of the album well either but would it have been a banging single? Sure!
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May 10, 2023 00:35
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If you think A+O would have been a better single than Perfect you're insane.
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May 10, 2023 00:51
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I think Satur9 would have been a good fit for Adore and probably made for a good single as well but I also love the drone/noise version from Machina II as well and getting to hear a properly mastered version of that track is one of my most anticipated things about the reissue. The track already sounds great and doesn't need any of the recording to be tampered with, I just don't know if whoever ripped it did a really poor job or if Billy rushed getting the song out there? Just dying to hear it properly but that electronic version from Adore is also great, albeit very 90s at parts. That synth of doom sounds amazing however and I know it's a mix by someone else but it seems like it would have been a great companion to Ava Adore.Baron von Eevl posted:If you think A+O would have been a better single than Perfect you're insane. I always thought Daphne Descends should have been a single. SUNKOS fucked around with this message at 00:55 on May 10, 2023 |
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May 10, 2023 00:52
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Baron von Eevl posted:If you think A+O would have been a better single than Perfect you're insane. Oh it wouldn't have been, but it's a fun thought experiment. You could pick 5 different songs for singles and given people 5 different impressions of the rest of the album.
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May 10, 2023 01:06
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I just checked and Adore only had the two singles released for it (Ava Adore & Perfect) and it seems like Billy moved on from the album really fast considering the Perfect single was released in September of 1998 and the first single from Machina (The Everlasting Gaze) was released nearly a year later in December of 1999. Apparently Machina was recorded between November 1998 and October 1999 as well, so only a couple months after Perfect was released as a single the band was already back in the studio recording a new album (and not only that, but a double album too). Billy really was just a machine throughout the 90s, did the guy take a break at all prior to the band splitting up?! It seems like he just recorded and released a constant barrage of great music for a whole decade. Checking this led me to hearing Summer for the first time, which is an Iha song included on the Perfect single. It's nice 
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May 10, 2023 01:44
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SUNKOS posted:I just checked and Adore only had the two singles released for it (Ava Adore & Perfect) and it seems like Billy moved on from the album really fast considering the Perfect single was released in September of 1998 and the first single from Machina (The Everlasting Gaze) was released nearly a year later in December of 1999. You forget he also wrote over half of Celebrity Skin for Hole, produced the Frogs - Starjob, wrote and played on Ric Ocasek’s solo album Troublizing and was on Mechanical Animals by Marylin Manson during that time period as well. Dude was incredibly busy and prolific in 96-98. He still writes a ton of for people. Some of it he gets credit for and others he takes a flat fee and no credit. That is where he makes most of his money these days. I have had several people claim to me that he has had more hits in the last 15 years than anyone else. I wouldn’t doubt it though. Just like how 3/4ths of the songs Linda Perry wrote she doesn’t get credit for.
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May 10, 2023 01:57
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I remember coming across the Manson thing but I don't think it was anything major? This was just via rantings of his keyboardist at the time who complained about Billy turning up to the studio and apparently just listening to what they'd recorded and the ideas behind it all and basically just saying something along the lines of "If you're going to go in this direction, you need to go all the way" which to be fair he was right about, but I don't think he was involved in any way beyond just turning up and offering some advice. Do remember the stories of him and Manson partying however, which I'm guessing is probably what Billy had in mind during an interview (I think with Howard Stern?) where he was asked about crazy rock 'n' roll parties and commented that he'd seen a lot of stuff he can never talk about and has to take to the grave. Almost positive he was referring to all the hosed-up things Manson liked to get up to when he said that. Not surprised at all about him being a ghost writer for people, I just didn't know that he still did it since I figured the Pumpkins was his primary focus these days. Well, that and wrestling. That claim about having the most hits in the last 15 years? I wouldn't doubt it either but it does make me wonder about the disappointing SP output. It does sound and feel pretty rushed so if he's making most of his money writing for other artists I can see why SP material sounds so creatively exhausted. If all of his writing efforts were solely focused on SP we'd have probably had some phenomenal albums. Then again maybe he just doesn't want to do what people expect, and that's why it barely sounds like the Pumpkins any more? I remember one of the songs off Zeitgeist having a moment where it literally sounded like an outtake from Siamese Dream, and it came across so effortless as if he could pull it off any time he wanted to - if he wanted to. On that note, I've always wondered why Jimmy hasn't made himself available for other bands like drummers such as Josh Freese and Dave Grohl. Jimmy's easily one of the best in the business and could probably make a lot of cash being available for other bands recording/touring duties, but maybe he's fiercely loyal to SP or just doesn't have the desire? Always found it odd that he hasn't appeared on a NIN/QOTSA etc. album/tour.
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May 10, 2023 03:09
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Djarum posted:You forget he also wrote over half of Celebrity Skin for Hole, produced the Frogs - Starjob, wrote and played on Ric Ocasek’s solo album Troublizing and was on Mechanical Animals by Marylin Manson during that time period as well. Dude was incredibly busy and prolific in 96-98. Also the instrumental soundtracks for Stigmata and Ransom, and he wrote/recorded a song with Tony Iommi.
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May 10, 2023 03:16
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SUNKOS posted:On that note, I've always wondered why Jimmy hasn't made himself available for other bands like drummers such as Josh Freese and Dave Grohl. Jimmy's easily one of the best in the business and could probably make a lot of cash being available for other bands recording/touring duties, but maybe he's fiercely loyal to SP or just doesn't have the desire? Always found it odd that he hasn't appeared on a NIN/QOTSA etc. album/tour. Jimmy did some session work in that time period after the Pumpkins broke up for awhile. From what I have gathered he just didn’t like doing it and doesn’t particularly need the money. I wouldn’t be surprised if his sobriety is also a factor in those choices as well. He does his solo stuff, the Pumpkins and he is involved with the Chicago City Colleges amongst some other low key things. I know he has shown up to just jam with jazz musicians in the Chicago area in the past.
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May 10, 2023 03:26
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Djarum posted:You forget he also wrote over half of Celebrity Skin for Hole, produced the Frogs - Starjob, wrote and played on Ric Ocasek’s solo album Troublizing and was on Mechanical Animals by Marylin Manson during that time period as well. Dude was incredibly busy and prolific in 96-98. What are some of these songs that he's written that have been hits? I'm genuinely curious, since I can't find any thing to support that claim.
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May 10, 2023 04:18
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Cemetry Gator posted:What are some of these songs that he's written that have been hits? The ghost written stuff I have no idea. I have heard the same claim from multiple people in various places in the industry so I don’t doubt it’s true. I haven’t listened to anything “popular” in over 15 years so I couldn’t even suggest anything. Billy’s song writing isn’t too distinctive either so there isn’t even “tells”. Like if you didn’t know he wrote half of Celebrity Skin you’d have no idea. I am sure someone more knowledgeable about recent music could probably make some guesses. If I were to make a general likely candidates they would be; someone that is known to be a singer songwriter that their later songs sound different than their first ones, any song with a catchy hook or riff, bands that had a comeback hit single after a period without one. But really it could be anything.
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May 10, 2023 04:49
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What I've heard regarding Celebrity Skin is less that Billy handed Courtney a bunch of songs and more that she had writer's block so they sat down together and he walked her through his process, suggesting things like key changes to help break her out of her rut. Less writing songs for her and more running a songwriting seminar. I also think those songs he's credited on sound a lot like post MCIS Billy in terms of the dynamics and changes.
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May 10, 2023 11:56
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Here’s my thoughts on Atum. I don’t hate it. It’s fine, there’s some tracks I really like. It just has the same problem that I ultimately have with CYR. It’s utterly forgettable. I’ve listened to it 2 times fully over (maybe 3?) and I can’t tell you a single song where I’m like “I have to listen to that again” like I can for stuff even like Zeitgeist or heck, Oceania. It’s all just muddled together. He makes no effort for the songs to have their own identity. I got to the last track of the album on disc 3, and I was so excited because it was just a keyboard playing and I thought he was going to do a nod to something like Farewell and Goodnight where he silently sings to a simple melody. Then the fart noise synthesizers kicked in. Someone please find Billy’s recording studio and steal his synths. He loves synths. Like, everything has to have the same stupid farting synth noises and I am over it. It’s funny reading the talk about him using broken guitars to make cool noise and I can just imagine these days that instead of doing that modern Billy would just be like “or we can use a synth.” Pumpkins will always be one of my favourite bands but it’s definitely not for their new music. I’m glad Billy is finally happy but I wish this incarnation of the band was called literally anything else because this just isn’t the Pumpkins anymore.
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May 10, 2023 13:16
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The Black Stones posted:Here’s my thoughts on Atum. The thing for me is that not only are there 3 albums worth of songs, it's that they also all sound so very very very similar that even if I wanted to go back and re-listen to a bit, I don't even remember what track it was. All the songs all kind of run together like a gray amalgamate of rinsed colors from watercolor paint. You can tell some cool colors were used here and there, but they're lost in the slurry.
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May 10, 2023 14:12
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I used to be a hard-headed synth hater, but I saw the error of my ways and now I think they're great. If you use them as a musical instrument, that is. That means phrasing, dynamics, and fitting into the overall sound. I'd argue that Adore is a great example of making timeless music that features synths. For some reason now, all of Billy's synth poo poo sounds exactly the same. Loud and corny. It doesn't help that Billy's voice is even louder. I think it was Jimmy who said, regarding Atum, that they wanted to see if they could make a "modern" album, but I would not use that word to describe this album. Side note... I wish he'd get rid of the harmonized female backing vocals featured on pretty much every song. It rarely adds anything, and it sounds exactly the same every time they show up. If it were an occasional flourish, I think it would be more effective. This isn't a knock on the singer(s). The sound itself is good, it just seems compositionally lazy. I do love the Pumpkins, though, so maybe I'll try to listen to all three discs again to see if I can make my own playlist I don't hate.
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May 10, 2023 14:37
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Seaniqua posted:
This is my biggest wtf. It sounds so bad and it's in EVERYTHING. I read some article where Billy said he wanted to keep the Smashing Pumpkins going so his kids wouldn't think he's a has-been. Which sounds like some narcissistic dad poo poo...like I guarantee your children don't give a poo poo and you're just coming up with an excuse for why you have to keep putting out subpar poo poo for another decade.
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May 10, 2023 15:25
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Seeing as how he's a millionaire, I would be far less concerned about my dad being a has-been and more concerned about slowly realizing that my dad is Billy Corgan
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May 10, 2023 15:50
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Seaniqua posted:Seeing as how he's a millionaire, I would be far less concerned about my dad being a has-been and more concerned about slowly realizing that my dad is Billy Corgan "I would be far less concerned about my dad being a has-been and more concerned about slowly realizing that my dad is Billy Corgan" - The Smashing Pumpkins Thread, is probably too long, right?
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May 10, 2023 16:11
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CherryCola posted:"Slowly realizing that my dad is Billy Corgan" - The Smashing Pumpkins Thread
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May 10, 2023 16:32
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SUNKOS posted:I just checked and Adore only had the two singles released for it (Ava Adore & Perfect) and it seems like Billy moved on from the album really fast considering the Perfect single was released in September of 1998 and the first single from Machina (The Everlasting Gaze) was released nearly a year later in December of 1999.
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May 10, 2023 17:16
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This Is the Zodiac posted:Crestfallen was also released as a promotional single but it didn't chart. Didn't Daphne Descends get some attention, too? I remember there being like a short remix album or something? Or was that a B-side to a different single... I love Daphne Descends.
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May 10, 2023 17:46
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I gave the whole thing a spin yesterday since I had yet to hear Act III/Disc 3. I had morbid hope that perhaps with the 9 minute "Intergalactic" some catharsis would finally be displayed, but no. Corgan defitly manages to balance the line between forgettable synth rock and the faded memory of what the Pumpkins did in 90's. It's nice he let Chamberlain off his leash for a bit though. The opening of "Avalance" still rubs me the wrong way, and I can't figure out why. True Confession: We hit up some record stores in New Orleans this weekend before and after Jazz Fest on Saturday and I saw the vinyl box for $90. I almost just did the thing, because maybe the album rewards with a more dedicated listen as opposed to streaming it while I'm at work. I feel ok about passing on it though. He can have my money if the Machina box set ever sees the light of day. I think I remember enjoying ZWAN but since that album isn't on Spotify and I long since unloaded all my CD's I can't remember much about it other than the last track being a rager?
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May 10, 2023 18:21
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