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site posted:what's this Honestly, it doesn't sound that bad. She said that Sam Raimi told her that he had never seen Wandavision and the writer of the movie wrote it before Wandavision was finished, so she felt like they were retreading some of her character beats from Wandavision. She said she wanted to try and give a dramatically different portrayal of her in MoM compared to Wandavision and she said she was struggling to make it her own because Raimi had his own direction he wanted to take the character and she thought he wasn't as excited with her ideas as he should be because he hadn't seen Wandavision.
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May 10, 2023 18:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Honestly, it doesn't sound that bad. That sounds pretty bad.
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May 10, 2023 18:28
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live with fruit posted:That sounds pretty bad. We don't know exactly what she wanted to do, but "director has idea for character and doesn't go with actor's vision" happens all the time and isn't usually a bad thing. They all knew how Wandavision ended, they just hadn't seen a final product. She was mostly not happy that they made MoM as standalone as possible so watching Wandavision wasn't necessary to understand 98% of the movie.
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May 10, 2023 18:35
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:We don't know exactly what she wanted to do, but "director has idea for character and doesn't go with actor's vision" happens all the time and isn't usually a bad thing. They all knew how Wandavision ended, they just hadn't seen a final product. She was mostly not happy that they made MoM as standalone as possible so watching Wandavision wasn't necessary to understand 98% of the movie. There's a reason Olsen's still being asked about it a year later. This is a shared universe and Wanda was coming off of a show that was all about her processing her grief and Raimi made her into a child-killing villain. Especially after Volume 3, there's a huge divide between characters who belong to specific creators (and even Gunn used screentime to complain about what the Russos did to his characters) and characters who bounce from voice to voice.
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May 10, 2023 18:45
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Does she not know she's a villain?live with fruit posted:There's a reason Olsen's still being asked about it a year later. This is a shared universe and Wanda was coming off of a show that was all about her processing her grief and Raimi made her into a child-killing villain. Especially after Volume 3, there's a huge divide between characters who belong to specific creators (and even Gunn used screentime to complain about what the Russos did to his characters) and characters who bounce from voice to voice. ...Did you see how Wandavision ends?
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May 10, 2023 18:49
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Aphrodite posted:Does she not know she's a villain? Yes, with Wanda sacrificing her family to save Westview.
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May 10, 2023 18:55
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Aphrodite posted:Does she not know she's a villain? With Wanda having processed her grief over Vision's death, said goodbye to her fictional children, and ends with the hope that she will one day be reunited again with Vision?
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May 10, 2023 18:57
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live with fruit posted:Yes, with Wanda sacrificing her family to save Westview. Parkingtigers posted:With Wanda having processed her grief over Vision's death, said goodbye to her fictional children, and ends with the hope that she will one day be reunited again with Vision? 
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May 10, 2023 18:57
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Prioritizing a vague post-credit scene over 9 hours of character development is still pretty bad.
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May 10, 2023 19:04
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Is this your first MCU?
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May 10, 2023 19:08
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The postcredits scene isn't some non-sequitur. The core story of WandaVision is Wanda refusing to let go of what she has, long after she's realized it's harming people, and reluctantly letting go of it at the end once it can no longer be maintained.
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May 10, 2023 19:08
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Like, I'm fairly certain the people making WandaVision had some idea that Wanda would be a villain in MoM. That they put in weird, bad attempts to absolve her anyway isn't a good thing for either story.
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May 10, 2023 19:10
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She's also fleeing the consequences of her actions at the end.
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May 10, 2023 19:13
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None of this really contradicts the idea that things were a mess BTS.
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May 10, 2023 19:14
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And then nothing. That's the end of the story. She had her villain arc, felt guilt and shame about it, and retires to a cabin to study magic and be away from people ready for her heroic redemption arc in her next outing.
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May 10, 2023 19:29
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Parkingtigers posted:And then nothing. That's the end of the story. She had her villain arc, felt guilt and shame about it, and retires to a cabin to study magic and be away from people ready for her heroic redemption arc in her next outing. She was studying magic from an evil book and is specifically using it to seek out her kids in the multiverse.
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May 10, 2023 19:33
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An evil book that they spent like 30 seconds establishing in the show. Wanda's story is a mess.
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May 10, 2023 19:36
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live with fruit posted:Wanda's story is a mess. But hey, enough about the comic books, this is the movie thread!
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May 10, 2023 19:41
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At least they didn’t have her wipe out all but a few mutants in this version?
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May 10, 2023 19:56
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I realized the other day that Phase 4 is over, so for the films I would rank them this way- A tier- No Way Home B tier- Thor Love and Thunder, Doctor Strange 2 C tier- Black Panther 2, Shang Chi D tier- Black Widow, Eternals Definitely the weakest of the phases. I think the only two that I mostly didn’t like were Black Widow and especially Eternals
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May 10, 2023 20:04
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FlamingLiberal posted:I realized the other day that Phase 4 is over, so for the films I would rank them this way- I'd flip B and C tier.
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May 10, 2023 20:08
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Man, it's like pulling teeth trying to get anyone to admit that Wanda wanting to murder a child isn't suddenly a satisfying plot just because we saw five seconds of her reading a bad book.
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May 10, 2023 20:16
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What did Gunn have to say about the Russos' treatment of the Guardians?
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May 10, 2023 20:19
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BrianWilly posted:Man, it's like pulling teeth trying to get anyone to admit that Wanda wanting to murder a child isn't suddenly a satisfying plot just because we saw five seconds of her reading a bad book. You're right, that's not the reason it's satisfying, it's because of the entire rest of WandaVision that makes it make perfect sense
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May 10, 2023 20:20
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I feel like some of you think the jump from mindslaving hundreds of people to murdering a teenager is much too large and this concerns me.
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May 10, 2023 20:20
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Even with the wobbly rushed ending I would still put Ms. Marvel over basically everything post Endgame except No Way Home and GOTG3
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May 10, 2023 20:23
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The audience surrogate character let Wanda off the hook.
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May 10, 2023 20:30
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Like multiple sources have stated on multiple occasions that the director never even watched the climax that actually ties the two stories together, and you're all here going, man that climax really tied the two stories together so well~! If ever there was a muddy hill to die on...
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May 10, 2023 20:33
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live with fruit posted:The audience surrogate character let Wanda off the hook. That scene sucked. BrianWilly posted:Like multiple sources have stated on multiple occasions that the director never even watched the climax that actually ties the two stories together, and you're all here going, man that climax really tied the two stories together so well~! Who gives a poo poo if he watched it? The story works.
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May 10, 2023 20:37
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#SamRaimiDidNothingWrong.
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May 10, 2023 20:40
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Arist posted:That scene sucked. MoM would've worked better without it.
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May 10, 2023 20:40
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BrianWilly posted:Man, it's like pulling teeth trying to get anyone to admit that Wanda wanting to murder a child isn't suddenly a satisfying plot just because we saw five seconds of her reading a bad book. Length of the shot doesn't matter. Especially since it tells you what we're saying anyway. She took the Darkhold with her and became dangerously obsessed with using it to find "her" kids somewhere else in the multiverse. If the shot was 10 minutes it would have said the same thing.
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May 10, 2023 20:41
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theironjef posted:Length of the shot doesn't matter. Especially since it tells you what we're saying anyway. She took the Darkhold with her and became dangerously obsessed with using it to find "her" kids somewhere else in the multiverse. If the shot was 10 minutes it would have said the same thing. A 10 minute meal is more satisfying than a five second one.
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May 10, 2023 20:44
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That's the point. He was told how Wandavision ends. Based on how MoM goes this seems to have been "on the path to full-on villain". Elizabeth Olsen thinks there was more nuance to it, and that's understandable because she's protective of her character and has been vocal in the past about how much MCU Wanda sucks. People above her evidently don't see it that way though.
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May 10, 2023 20:44
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Honestly, "Who gives a poo poo if the director saw the story he's making a direct sequel to" is the type of take would get someone laughed out of a thread if it got applied to any other project.theironjef posted:Length of the shot doesn't matter. Especially since it tells you what we're saying anyway. She took the Darkhold with her and became dangerously obsessed with using it to find "her" kids somewhere else in the multiverse. If the shot was 10 minutes it would have said the same thing.
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May 10, 2023 20:56
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BrianWilly posted:Honestly, "Who gives a poo poo if the director saw the story he's making a direct sequel to" is the type of take would get someone laughed out of a thread if it got applied to any other project. On a very nuts and bolts practical level, he couldn't. Raimi and Waldron wrote the film while WandaVision production was shut down due to Covid, and they didn't finish shooting WV until right before MoM started production. You are of course, free to question if this is a wise way to run a railroad (it is not). In retrospect, they probably tabbed the wrong Disney+ head writer for the job, but Feige had a Rick & Morty writer quotient to fill, so it was Waldron over Schaefer.
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May 10, 2023 21:30
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Even if we forget about how Wanda held an entire town hostage and puppeted them around for a while, The Darkhold corrupts whoever reads it and makes them evil, that's very clearly laid out. Even the sorcerer supreme can't stand up to it as we see from both the evil Strange and then prime Strange at the end. Wandavision ends with Wanda running away from what she's done and studying the evil book that corrupts anyone who reads it, it's not a stretch to think that it made her believe that she was right all along
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May 10, 2023 22:10
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BrianWilly posted:Honestly, "Who gives a poo poo if the director saw the story he's making a direct sequel to" is the type of take would get someone laughed out of a thread if it got applied to any other project. It's conjecture, but maybe she didn't learn that in Wandavision, she just learned she was in an untenable situation and couldn't keep using magic to have her way any more. She had run out of options, she had a powerful witch in there messing with stuff, there were SWORD agents on the outside working out how to get in, even her imaginary husband was against her plan. It was only a matter of time before other Avengers or Dr. Strange or whatever caught wind of the city sized magic hexagon on the Eastern Seaboard and then they'd get involved. Even she was now not going to be able to be happy in there, knowing full well that it was all a fake and everyone could tell. She realized she was spiraling, and making an overture towards fixing it by letting everyone go (especially the actual kids of Westview that she was just keeping sort of turned off in their rooms) and getting out of there was her best option to get the heat off so she could keep working with the Darkhold. Did she feel guilty about it? Yeah, probably, she's human. But the notion that she gave it all up after a major personal change towards good is also conjecture. Either path was valid, right up until the waveform collapsed and a movie came out about it. Also yeah, it was real sad when she gave up the boys and they stopped existing. But we see at the start of MoM that she was already living in a brand new Westview all by herself, having turned her weird mountain hellscape into an apple orchard, and there was nothing stopping her from just imagining up a new Wiccan and Speed in there, but she didn't. Why? I assume because she realized at the end of Wandavision that fake brain kids can be easily taken away, and she wanted a set of real ones now. Maybe she realized that in Westview proper, and even as hard as it was to watch them fade away, she was already working on how to prevent that next time. theironjef fucked around with this message at 22:30 on May 10, 2023 |
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May 10, 2023 22:24
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The Darkhold is brought up for two seconds at the end of Wandavision. If the plan was for it to corrupt her leading into MoM, they should've done a better job of setting it up.
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May 10, 2023 22:28
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The darkhold is introduced in episode 7 when Agatha reveals herself.
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May 10, 2023 22:31
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