|
Mad Hamish posted:I feel like the belief that after you die you get to be the God of your own planet is sort of incompatible with Christianity, but again, I am not a Christian. are you allowed to listen to metal and swear and be gay and have sex and smoke weed on your own planet or do you still have to obey all the christian laws? if the latter still seems pretty christian to me. if the former, then i get why you'd say its not christian, but then why are mormons so uptight about all that stuff here on earth??
|
#
?
May 11, 2023 16:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 15:45 |
|
|
"Do other Christians consider this group to be authentically Christian" is kind of a land of contrasts at best. Like I've met people (and not just on the business end of a Chick Tract) who would consider Catholics to be non-Christian idol worshippers . I'm honestly not sure where "Worships Christ, but has some other doctrines I don't quite agree with" becomes "is a distinct religion from mine" but I feel like LDS is somewhere on the far side of that line. Though I'm also not sure how much that matters. I've always liked the story told of the Apostle John, who in his old age would just go around saying "Love one another, love one another" to people over and over, and when someone finally asked why, he said that if you get that right, that's really the important bit. I have no idea if it's true, but it's a story I like.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2023 17:14
|
|
|
I think the Mormons consider themselves Christian and they are certainly in political alignment with many Christian churches. I understand the theological distinctions, it’s just been unclear to me how they differ between LDS and Methodists compared to, for instance, the Catholic Church and Jack Chick Evangelicals. To me they all seem like Christians (if with greatly varying ideas) much like how my aunt the cantor at a Reform temple is a Jew and so is Jimmy Haredi, the frummest man to ever diaper a chicken.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2023 17:16
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:are you allowed to listen to metal and swear and be gay and have sex and smoke weed on your own planet or do you still have to obey all the christian laws? if the latter still seems pretty christian to me. If you're not allowed then that sounds pretty loving lame if you ask me!
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2023 17:22
|
|
|
 has been the Mormon endgame this whole time
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2023 17:33
|
|
|
Wow. Dragonball Z.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2023 19:59
|
|
|
I'm not generally comfortable with declaring Mormons aren't Christians, but they are fairly unique in their theology. For most Christians,* there are two deciding factors: the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in essence and coeternal, and God the Son became incarnate as Jesus Christ. Catholics, Orthodox, most Protestants, Copts, and Nestorians all basically agree on all this. Mormons believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but consider them all separate beings, and God was once a mortal who was exalted the same way Mormons hope to be exalted. That, plus the use of the Book of Mormon, make for a pretty big departure from most other forms of Christianity. So then... Nessus posted:it’s just been unclear to me how they differ between LDS and Methodists compared to, for instance, the Catholic Church and Jack Chick Evangelicals. * meaning on an institutional level; there's no way I can possibly describe the beliefs of every individual.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2023 20:03
|
|
|
Mormon are clearly a Christian group that originated out of the burnt over district roughly coinciding with the end of the second great awakening, that identities as Christian but is not Trinitarian and deviates significantly from most of the rest of Christianity.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2023 21:43
|
|
|
Reading Flaubert's The Temptation of St.Anthony It is extremely sick. The phantasmal parade of Gnostics, Heretics, and Profligates is the most imaginative piece of religious adjacent art I've seen since M&M, but Flaubert really seems to have done his research. I seen several Goofy Goober doctrines I've heard of, but some totally new to me! Love a good life long masterwork, good job at inadvertently recommending it to me Borges.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 02:11
|
|
|
Keromaru5 posted:I'm not generally comfortable with declaring Mormons aren't Christians, but they are fairly unique in their theology. For most Christians,* there are two deciding factors: the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in essence and coeternal, and God the Son became incarnate as Jesus Christ. Catholics, Orthodox, most Protestants, Copts, and Nestorians all basically agree on all this. Mormons believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but consider them all separate beings, and God was once a mortal who was exalted the same way Mormons hope to be exalted. That, plus the use of the Book of Mormon, make for a pretty big departure from most other forms of Christianity. i can still how it's a big departure, but as a non-christian, from my perspective it still very much falls into the group of "religions in which people worship jesus as christ", which imo still puts it way closer to christianity than it is to judiasm or islam, in which the centrality of jesus and use of the term and concept of "christ" are simply not relevant. like, if you believe in the "father and son" at all that seems awfully christian to me, regardless of the difference in whether they are separate beings or one being or whatever, because really its pretty much only christians who concern themselves with the nature of those beings in the first place. muslims recognize jesus as a somewhat important prophet but certainly not as a son of god or central messianic figure of the religion, and most jews consider jesus to possibly, at most, be a human being who might have existed at one point. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 03:18 on May 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 03:13
|
|
|
I think Jesus is actually considered the most important prophet with the highest power level in Islam, they just follow Muhammad's words because he was the most recent guy and included error protection protocols so his message didn't get distorted. Like I think they both agree that Jesus is going to hit Satan with a Chaos Dunk in the end times.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 03:21
|
|
|
He's not divine though in Islam.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 03:26
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:He's not divine though in Islam.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 03:43
|
|
|
Islam explicitly denies Jesus' divinity and status as Son of God, but IIRC, does consider him the prophesied Messiah, and even teaches that he'll return again. And yeah, the idea of a divine Father and Son is very much a Christian concept, but then, there was also a time when worshipping the single God of Israel was synonymous with Judaism. Stands to reason that some ideas that originated with one religion aren't necessarily going to stay within that religion.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 04:10
|
|
|
Wow Daniel 3 is a long chapter. Phew! e: I just looked up the NIV version and it was missing an entire section in which someone is praying for everything from the snow to whales in the sea to worship God. From rsv2ce The Prayer of Azariah in the Furnace 1 And they walked about in the midst of the flames, singing hymns to God and blessing the Lord. 2 Then Azari′ah stood and offered this prayer; in the midst of the fire he opened his mouth and said: 3 “Blessed art thou, O Lord, God of our fathers, and worthy of praise; and thy name is glorified for ever. 4 For thou art just in all that thou hast done to us, and all thy works are true and thy ways right, and all thy judgments are truth. 5 Thou hast executed true judgments in all that thou hast brought upon us and upon Jerusalem, the holy city of our fathers, for in truth and justice thou hast brought all this upon us because of our sins. 6 For we have sinfully and lawlessly departed from thee, and have sinned in all things and have not obeyed thy commandments; 7 we have not observed them or done them, as thou hast commanded us that it might go well with us. 8 So all that thou hast brought upon us, and all that thou hast done to us, thou hast done in true judgment. 9 Thou hast given us into the hands of lawless enemies, most hateful rebels, and to an unjust king, the most wicked in all the world. 10 And now we cannot open our mouths; shame and disgrace have befallen thy servants and worshipers. 11 For thy name’s sake do not give us up utterly, and do not break thy covenant, 12 and do not withdraw thy mercy from us, for the sake of Abraham thy beloved and for the sake of Isaac thy servant and Israel thy holy one, 13 to whom thou didst promise to make their descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the sand on the shore of the sea. 14 For we, O Lord, have become fewer than any nation, and are brought low this day in all the world because of our sins. 15 And at this time there is no prince, or prophet, or leader, no burnt offering, or sacrifice, or oblation, or incense, no place to make an offering before thee or to find mercy. 16 Yet with a contrite heart and a humble spirit may we be accepted, as though it were with burnt offerings of rams and bulls, and with tens of thousands of fat lambs; 17 such may our sacrifice be in thy sight this day, and may we wholly follow thee, for there will be no shame for those who trust in thee. 18 And now with all our heart we follow thee, we fear thee and seek thy face. 19 Do not put us to shame, but deal with us in thy forbearance and in thy abundant mercy. 20 Deliver us in accordance with thy marvelous works, and give glory to thy name, O Lord! Let all who do harm to thy servants be put to shame; 21 let them be disgraced and deprived of all power and dominion, and let their strength be broken. 22 Let them know that thou art the Lord, the only God, glorious over the whole world.” The Song of the Three Jews 23 Now the king’s servants who threw them in did not cease feeding the furnace fires with naphtha, pitch, tow, and brush. 24 And the flame streamed out above the furnace forty-nine cubits, 25 and it broke through and burned those of the Chalde′ans whom it caught about the furnace. 26 But the angel of the Lord came down into the furnace to be with Azari′ah and his companions, and drove the fiery flame out of the furnace, 27 and made the midst of the furnace like a moist whistling wind, so that the fire did not touch them at all or hurt or trouble them. 28 Then the three, as with one mouth, praised and glorified and blessed God in the furnace, saying: 29 “Blessed art thou, O Lord, God of our fathers, and to be praised and highly exalted for ever; 30 And blessed is thy glorious, holy name and to be highly praised and highly exalted for ever; 31 Blessed art thou in the temple of thy holy glory and to be extolled and highly glorified for ever. 32 Blessed art thou, who sittest upon cherubim and lookest upon the deeps, and to be praised and highly exalted for ever. 33 Blessed art thou upon the throne of thy kingdom and to be extolled and highly exalted for ever. 34 Blessed art thou in the firmament of heaven and to be sung and glorified for ever. 35 “Bless the Lord, all works of the Lord, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 36 Bless the Lord, you heavens, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 37 Bless the Lord, you angels of the Lord, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 38 Bless the Lord, all waters above the heaven, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 39 Bless the Lord, all powers, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 40 Bless the Lord, sun and moon, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 41 Bless the Lord, stars of heaven, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 42 Bless the Lord, all rain and dew, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 43 Bless the Lord, all winds, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 44 Bless the Lord, fire and heat, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 45 Bless the Lord, winter cold and summer heat, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 46 Bless the Lord, dews and snows, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 47 Bless the Lord, nights and days, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 48 Bless the Lord, light and darkness, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 49 Bless the Lord, ice and cold, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 50 Bless the Lord, frosts and snows, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 51 Bless the Lord, lightnings and clouds, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 52 Let the earth bless the Lord; let it sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 53 Bless the Lord, mountains and hills, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 54 Bless the Lord, all things that grow on the earth, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 55 Bless the Lord, you springs, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 56 Bless the Lord, seas and rivers, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 57 Bless the Lord, you whales and all creatures that move in the waters, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 58 Bless the Lord, all birds of the air, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 59 Bless the Lord, all beasts and cattle, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 60 Bless the Lord, you sons of men, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 61 Bless the Lord, O Israel, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 62 Bless the Lord, you priests of the Lord, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 63 Bless the Lord, you servants of the Lord, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 64 Bless the Lord, spirits and souls of the righteous, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 65 Bless the Lord, you who are holy and humble in heart, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever. 66 Bless the Lord, Hanani′ah, Azari′ah, and Mish′ael, sing praise to him and highly exalt him for ever; for he has rescued us from Hades and saved us from the hand of death, and delivered us from the midst of the burning fiery furnace; from the midst of the fire he has delivered us. 67 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his mercy endures for ever. 68 Bless him, all who worship the Lord, the God of gods, sing praise to him and give thanks to him, for his mercy endures for ever.”[e] Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 11:18 on May 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 11:14
|
|
|
Prurient Squid posted:Wow Daniel 3 is a long chapter. Phew! The NIV does not have the Benedicite Omnia Opera? A shameful translation!
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 13:33
|
|
|
Blessed are all works? Is that what it means?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 13:37
|
|
|
Prurient Squid posted:Blessed are all works? Is that what it means? Something like that or "A Song of Creation". It is the name of the canticle based on that passage. Also called "The Song of the Three Children".
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 13:46
|
|
|
Prurient Squid posted:Wow Daniel 3 is a long chapter. Phew! Those are part of the Additions to Daniel, which is canonical for Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, but not Protestants. NIV is a Protestant edition, so it's left out.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 13:53
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:Those are part of the Additions to Daniel, which is canonical for Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, but not Protestants. It shows up in the Apocrypha in the KJV (at least until 1885) and it is one of the alternative canticles for morning prayer (normally in Advent) in the 1662 BCP so it has some standing in the Anglican Church even if it is not fully canonical.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 14:38
|
|
|
Massive respect to anyone who can remember all that while being roasted.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 16:11
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:He's not divine though in Islam. Islam also denies he was crucified.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
What's the claim, that it was all a smoke show by the Devil to distract people from what Jesus was teaching?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 19:15
|
|
|
Nessus posted:What's the claim, that it was all a smoke show by the Devil to distract people from what Jesus was teaching? I’ve been told that they believe his face was swapped with Judas’ face and Judas was crucified instead. I phrase it that way because I’ve only heard that from a couple Muslims I knew so I don’t know if that’s a widespread or institutional teaching. Edit: God switched their faces, I should say. Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 21:12 on May 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 19:30
|
|
|
Thirteen Orphans posted:I’ve been told that they believe his face was swapped with Judas’ face and Judas was crucified instead. I phrase it that way because I’ve only heard that from a couple Muslims I knew so I don’t know if that’s a widespread or institutional teaching. There's quite a few Gnostic texts that deny Jesus Corporeality, and by consequence someone else was crucified. I've seen Simon the Cyrene as the most common in my own lookings of these docetics, but it looks like it's common in Islamic circles for it to have been Judas instead. Perhaps influenced by the non canonical Gospel of Barnabas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas Then some people just think the Romans crucified a sort of shadow instead of anyone at all.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2023 23:46
|
|
|
I dreamt I encountered the Lamb of God. But it was anthropomorphic and stood on legs. Realistic, not loony toons. It might have been dressed. It was brown.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2023 08:01
|
|
|
Spinoza: Hey Kabbalah, can I borrow your homework? Kabbalah: Yeah, but change it so it's not too obvious.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2023 12:53
|
|
|
Prurient Squid posted:I dreamt I encountered the Lamb of God. But it was anthropomorphic and stood on legs. Realistic, not loony toons. It might have been dressed. It was brown. That sounds tremendously creepy. Did it have hands or regular sheep feet? ...sheep feet are called hooves right? I'm realising I don't know as much about sheep as I probably should.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2023 13:21
|
|
|
I always change my dreams when I explain them. I feel like it was at a certain remove, as if I was watching it on television. I remember no details.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2023 14:02
|
|
|
When Zevi in my Kabbalah videos talks about the interpretive readings of texts like the Torah and uses phrases like "hermeneutic device" and talks about the reciprocal relation between conciousness and text it makes me think of the idea of "lateral thinking". In lateral thinking what matters isn't the abstract truth of what's being said but it's movement value. Like out-of-the-box thinking but applied to biblical exegesis.
Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 18:35 on May 13, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2023 15:26
|
|
|
Prurient Squid posted:I always change my dreams when I explain them. I feel like it was at a certain remove, as if I was watching it on television. I remember no details. Nabokov has a section in Speak, Memory his autobiography, where he recollects his childhoold park, and the strolling down it only to realize his winding recollections are patchworks of remembrance and half remembrance, where the bench he can sit on is seen with perfect clarity while the space around it twists and compresses in a swirl of half remembered colors, sounds, and smells. Likewise in the introduction he is confronted with the fact that some of what he wrote in earlier editions was false or misremembered, places and objects transposed and bi-located thousands of miles and tens of years apart. Even in the text itself he recollects the recollections of his old Governess whom remembers things naught as Nabokov does, yet that is the truth that she lived by. Then we should ask, what is the Truth, the actual event, the remembered event, and if remembered which one? Both Nabokov and his Governess built their lives in small part on millions of those small events, ones that resemble but are not symmetrical with one another. Such as it is with our dreams, their truth is not beholden to our remembrance of them or what happens in them, but the conflation of the two. As Borges said, I think, probably him in paraphrase. "We are not frightened by the Grypon in our dreams. We are frightened and so we dream of a terrifying animal." Our emotions precede our ability to express them, as such putting them down, no matter how eloquent or descriptive is lacking as our ability to express our own truth in any given moment is always incomplete. Thus, paradoxically sometimes the best way to strike another human with the hammer of our reality is to not tell the truth as we see it, but to construct a simulacra that embodies the emotions, sculpt them into a labyrinth and force the others to run it like Theseus. When Vonnegut set out to write about his experince in WWII he wrote not of himself, except in cameo, but of a man stolen out of time, forced to live a dual life as a piece of meat set for consumption and conversely as an ordinary post war educated worker. Stanley Kubrick posted:A film is — or should be — more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later." When Kubrick wanted to film a man's dissolution in his isolation he did not film a man sitting alone in a room writing, he's not Paul Schrader lol, he twisted the corridors of the hotel into illogical and self spiraling directions, impossible turns. A labyrinth where one's mind is reflected unto the very architecture. When he filmed a man struggling to come to terms with his wife's sexual desire for other men, he did not film a man being sad. He filmed a man walking empty streets, a man whose status was never questioned is suddenly impotent, his money is useless compared to the stacks being thrown around, everyone around him seems to be having sex and yet he remains incapable, the structures of power he took for granted upturn themselves and reveal themselves as only the shadows of far greater monuments hidden. Perhaps then the question you didn't ask shouldn't be why you cannot remember your dreams the way they happened, but why you remember them the way you do? And what you're meant to discover in them. Stanley Kubrick posted:"If you really want to communicate something, even if it’s just an emotion or an attitude, let alone an idea, the least effective and least enjoyable way is directly. It only goes in about an inch. But if you can get people to the point where they have to think a moment what it is you’re getting at, and then discover it, the thrill of discovery goes right through the heart." Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 05:26 on May 14, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 05:24
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I think the Mormons consider themselves Christian and they are certainly in political alignment with many Christian churches. I understand the theological distinctions, it’s just been unclear to me how they differ between LDS and Methodists compared to, for instance, the Catholic Church and Jack Chick Evangelicals. If I was not non-denominational; I'd pick LDS because they are really great people.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 06:04
|
|
|
Off the top of my head, LDS is kinda estranged from classical christianity because they don't place primary emphasis on the bible (and then only on Joseph Smiths translation), don't use the cross as a symbol, and also the whole deal with God having a flesh body and that all mormons can one day become like he is now.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 07:45
|
|
|
I thought God did have a flesh body in Christianity.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 07:55
|
|
|
I'll bear that in mind Gaius. The feelings. Quakers was a ton of fun today. First I told the clerk all about the Kabbalah and connections to Jung and Spinoza. I enjoyed that conversation even though it was my one sided info dump. Then at the end I talked to woman about my journaling and the writers group I was involved with and it turned out that both of us love Alice in Wonderland and both of us read out You Are Old Father William in front of an audience. So I really enjoyed the two of us trying to remember the whole thing off the top of our heads. I spoke in afterword about the importance of telling the truth and how I've realised how much a value that is for me. The next person to spoke followed on from what I had said and what some other people had said.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 13:36
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I thought God did have a flesh body in Christianity. God the Son has a flesh body, God the Father however is not usually believed to have a body (and why, for example, Orthodox Christianity still forbids paintings of God the Father broadly except for representation of a hand etc., though this ban has been increasingly ignored in Russian Orthodoxy). Some new sects might believe that, I don't really know much about any new denominations, but the classical ones all deny God the Father having a physical body.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 14:24
|
|
|
You sure because my literalist bible education definitely taught me that Isaiah 49:16 means that God has big hands a la that joke from The Simpsons 
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 16:19
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I thought God did have a flesh body in Christianity. In addition to the previously mentioned Father. They also have the Holy Spirit have a body.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 16:36
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:In addition to the previously mentioned Father. They also have the Holy Spirit have a body. but... He's a spirit...
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 18:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 15:45 |
|
|
Also I seem to recall them thinking Jesus may have been an Archangel, not a part of God? Although that could be JW, I'm not sure..
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2023 18:19
|
|