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Soviet doctrine for the longest time was to fight buttoned up. This was at odds with the tank designs that had poor vision and ventilation. Every time I read about crew experiences in T-55s, T-62s, and even T-64s on, many of them talk about how often their hatches were open for reasons of vision or comfort.
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May 12, 2023 22:15
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Der Kyhe posted:So the Russians took the exactly wrong lesson here; they are cope-caging against their own weapons, not against the weapons their opponent uses. I’ve seen pics of cope-cages that had ERA on top of them. They’ve had plenty of examples of what a tandem charge does, but somebody somewhere is probably getting screamed at to “DO loving SOMETHING, ANYTHING!!!”, so that’s what happened. We end up getting a bunch of goofy looking stuff bolted on in random ways places/places, but I’m pretty sure the only way you’re beating a javelin missile (once airborne) is to shoot it down, or hoping the person shooting or sucked at targeting. Again, that tandem charge was literally designed against Soviet ERA, and we haven’t seen anything shut those missiles down yet.
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May 12, 2023 22:19
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Der Kyhe posted:I find it sort of funny that the slit armor works when it goes against the old Soviet anti-armor weapons, but basically has no meaning against the western weapons produced after 60's. It worked in the recent conflicts for the NATO and US forces because their enemy was using old Soviet weapons. ukraine is using a lot of older russian weapon systems too and even stuff that is a further step down, eg the rocket propelled mortars and the like. common theme with russian stuff seems to be that the higher end of it is genuinely quite capable but there's never all that much of it
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May 12, 2023 22:32
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Der Kyhe posted:I find it sort of funny that the slit armor works when it goes against the old Soviet anti-armor weapons, but basically has no meaning against the western weapons produced after 60's. It worked in the recent conflicts for the NATO and US forces because their enemy was using old Soviet weapons. I think there is still sense in slat armor on Russian tanks. There are a lot of RPG-7 launchers in Ukraine. As in, more than they can possibly have users for. It has been seen in many, many videos from the front, simply because there are enough of them that every squad walking around somewhere probably has at least one. Ukraine also has a bunch of more modern weapons, but they don't have enough of those to always have them everywhere, and the very least the slat armor on an ancient tank encourages Ukrainians to spend more valuable munitions to defeat it.
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May 12, 2023 22:44
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And even if they have modern weapons, they are used sparingly. If you remember the trench warfare footage from a month or two ago with the guy fighting off a BMP-load of Russians with his helper handing him weapons and ammo, in that video he shoots off a bunch of RPG rounds but when he wants to use a Matador ATGM, he radios his commander for permission. He ends up not using it, but I found that interesting that they're rationing the better western kit that way.
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May 12, 2023 22:48
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Duzzy Funlop posted:*edit: Link removed because dead bodies* The Ukrainian narrative says that the explosions are his own side trying to kill him before he can surrender
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May 12, 2023 22:50
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, bunch of close-call explosions that I can't quite explain
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Der Kyhe posted:I find it sort of funny that the slit armor works when it goes against the old Soviet anti-armor weapons, but basically has no meaning against the western weapons produced after 60's. It worked in the recent conflicts for the NATO and US forces because their enemy was using old Soviet weapons. There are a lot of reasons to operate your tank unbuttoned, and the most significant one is that with the commander operating head out, he has far better situational awareness in a battlefield. If you're not in an artillery bombardment or getting shot at by small arms, you can potentially have better survivability head out as compared to the illusion of safety buttoning up your tank provides. There are plenty of reasons to close the hatches, too, but a tank in combat with open hatches isn't automatically a dumb thing.
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May 12, 2023 23:21
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A.o.D. posted:There are a lot of reasons to operate your tank unbuttoned, and the most significant one is that with the commander operating head out, he has far better situational awareness in a battlefield. If you're not in an artillery bombardment or getting shot at by small arms, you can potentially have better survivability head out as compared to the illusion of safety buttoning up your tank provides. There are plenty of reasons to close the hatches, too, but a tank in combat with open hatches isn't automatically a dumb thing. And the reason to operate buttoned up is that the Soviets fully expected the WW3 battlefield to be heavily contaminated by all 3 of NB and C.
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May 12, 2023 23:57
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It's not a terrible assumption to be making, seriously
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May 12, 2023 23:58
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A.o.D. posted:There are a lot of reasons to operate your tank unbuttoned, and the most significant one is that with the commander operating head out, he has far better situational awareness in a battlefield. If you're not in an artillery bombardment or getting shot at by small arms, you can potentially have better survivability head out as compared to the illusion of safety buttoning up your tank provides. There are plenty of reasons to close the hatches, too, but a tank in combat with open hatches isn't automatically a dumb thing. How far is the TC out? Just his head or like full torso WH40K style?
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May 13, 2023 00:01
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Der Kyhe posted:So the Russians took the exactly wrong lesson here; they are cope-caging against their own weapons, not against the weapons their opponent uses. Cope cage cargo cult
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May 13, 2023 00:07
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Tuna-Fish posted:I think there is still sense in slat armor on Russian tanks. There are a lot of RPG-7 launchers in Ukraine. As in, more than they can possibly have users for. It has been seen in many, many videos from the front, simply because there are enough of them that every squad walking around somewhere probably has at least one. Yeah, there's a common tendency in Internet Armchair General discussion to say "X system can be defeated by Y system so why even bother?", which ignores the real life challenges in getting Y into a position where it can effectively engage X, and the ability of X to effectively defend against threats A through W. I don't speak Tank well enough to really comment on that side of things, but you see it a lot in air defense / air power discussions as well. "Helicopters are vulnerable to MANPADS", well yeah, that's why you have tactics and systems that mitigate that threat, and in a heavy combat situation you make a calculated risk decision that you may lose a certain number of aircraft in order to achieve your objective.
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May 13, 2023 00:09
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Tuna-Fish posted:And the reason to operate buttoned up is that the Soviets fully expected the WW3 battlefield to be heavily contaminated by all 3 of NB and C. Tbf it got Donald trump elected for them
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May 13, 2023 00:12
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Wingnut Ninja posted:Yeah, there's a common tendency in Internet Armchair General discussion to say "X system can be defeated by Y system so why even bother?", which ignores the real life challenges in getting Y into a position where it can effectively engage X, and the ability of X to effectively defend against threats A through W. I don't speak Tank well enough to really comment on that side of things, but you see it a lot in air defense / air power discussions as well. "Helicopters are vulnerable to MANPADS", well yeah, that's why you have tactics and systems that mitigate that threat, and in a heavy combat situation you make a calculated risk decision that you may lose a certain number of aircraft in order to achieve your objective.
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May 13, 2023 00:14
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Nystral posted:How far is the TC out? Just his head or like full torso WH40K style? "Name tag defilade" is a term I've heard used.
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May 13, 2023 01:11
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Hekk posted:It's easy to forget that we have goons with friends and family in Ukraine right now fighting for their existence. I know that information and updates about progress ebbs and flows but before we completely derail this thread with extremely off topic subjects, take a look around GIP and see if there isn't a better spot for that conversation. Yeah, I played EVE with my Ukrainian friends. I hope they are safe and doing well. 
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May 13, 2023 01:59
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They should join cyberwar and steal from Russian corps for real
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May 13, 2023 02:02
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Nystral posted:How far is the TC out? Just his head or like full torso WH40K style? As far as he needs to, and as low as he can while still seeing poo poo. Depending on the tank you are on (for example, the CROWS .50 on the abrams sits squarely in front of the TC and is the size of a trash can) I have seen TCs from nametape defilade to ”standing on top of the turret to peek over the hilltop” depending on what is necessary. The difference between ”looking through periscopes and optics” vs ”seeing 360 around you” is hard to explain without showing but reality is that 99% of the time nobody will ask ”why was the TC looking outside” - instead the question is gonna be ”why was he buttoned up and didnt see X/Y/Z next to the tank?”
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May 13, 2023 02:02
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When I was going through training, they told us that Soviet doctrine was to have TC exposed until they encountered armor, and that's why their hatches opened backwards. Anyone else ever heard that? I haven't a clue if it's correct. I didn't think it really mattered, because I can only hurt the squishy parts anyway.
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May 13, 2023 02:15
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Unsure if it was a deliberate design decision to have it act as a forward shield of sorts but it definitely forces the commander to be further out in order to see around the hatch. I've always gone with anything more than shoulders out is too much, unless you're doing some tight manoeuvring around obstacles.
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May 13, 2023 08:24
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Tuna-Fish posted:I think there is still sense in slat armor on Russian tanks. There are a lot of RPG-7 launchers in Ukraine. As in, more than they can possibly have users for. It has been seen in many, many videos from the front, simply because there are enough of them that every squad walking around somewhere probably has at least one. That reminded me of this video from early in the war where the Ukrainian forces were kitted out with an absurd amount of ordnance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADsM8PhGN8U
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May 13, 2023 09:22
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https://twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1657067703889166342 Fun new toys found in the Ukrainian inventory. Lots of armchair theorizing going on about how it's going to make Russian air defenses cry, which seems accurate since it was apparently used in connection with a Russian repair point getting blasted with pinpoint accuracy in the Russian-held parts of Luhansk.
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May 13, 2023 11:55
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PurpleXVI posted:https://twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1657067703889166342 It was claimed it was heralding a Storm Shadow missile in it's wake. Some tweets show Storm Shadow fragments. It makes sense to use the Storm Shadow missiles ASAP once the capability is known and the enemy starts moving their assets beyond the missile's range. fe: the tweet https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1657317762157477888 edit: closer to source tweet says it was 2 Storm Shadow missiles  https://twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/status/1657314335507595266 karoshi fucked around with this message at 12:19 on May 13, 2023 |
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May 13, 2023 12:06
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Was it already known the AFU had received MALD? Very cool they are getting the good stuff.
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May 13, 2023 12:53
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This war is progressing in reverse order. We started at Cope cages, we've regressed to MALD, when do we get to seethe?
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May 13, 2023 12:55
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I'm not malding, you're malding! This is a pretty big deal, right? Even if the Russians move their important assets beyond the range of the missile, that will still stretch their supply lines?
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May 13, 2023 13:03
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Which are already laughable.
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May 13, 2023 13:05
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Torrannor posted:I'm not malding, you're malding! MALD isn't a particularly big deal, it's just a system that can improve the survivability of Ukrainian pilots. It doesn't necessarily introduce a new capability. Storm Shadow, however, gives them longer legs on what they can effectively strike. As has been noted, depending on the exact version they've been supplied with, they can hit anything outside of Crimea with the export version, and the Kerch Bridge if they have the top of the line model from territory they already control. However, as it's an air-launched system, the pilots will need to launch it from significantly further back from the front lines to give themselves the greatest possible chance of evading Russian anti-air. Storm Shadow is really expensive, so they're not going to have the availability to sling it at every ammo dump in range. They'll need to be discriminating in order to get the most out of it.
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May 13, 2023 13:17
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Today is apparently the day where Russian telegram scrambles to work out if it is more embarrassing to claim that Ukraine shot down 4 aircraft, or that it was friendly fire.
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May 13, 2023 14:16
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I wonder if there was a brief panic in Russias IADS command center when they locked on to what they thought was an F 15
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May 13, 2023 14:19
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https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1657368124788809728 Speaking of "in range," it seems like pretty big news that some Russian aviation now isn't even getting over the border before coming crashing down burning. Feels like the first time we've seen that outside of technical failures. There are also some unconfirmed rumours the downed helicopters were specifically carrying artillery unit officers, which it would seem like a pretty big coup for Ukraine to blow up since the biggest threat Russia has going for it appears to remain their artillery numbers advantage. https://twitter.com/KilledInUkraine/status/1657362337626484736 quote:“According to an army source based in Klintsy, one of the helicopters was carrying officers from two artillery brigades and inspectors from the group headquarters who were flying to inspect the location of artillery units. There is no confirmation of this information yet.”
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May 13, 2023 14:19
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Torrannor posted:I'm not malding, you're malding! Yeah supply lines will stretch to Crimea and Russia, extending beyond main land Ukraine.
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May 13, 2023 14:23
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Moving patriot near the front where it will be combat useful.
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May 13, 2023 14:35
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PurpleXVI posted:https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1657368124788809728 That's some next level fragging there. Not dropping grenades in your own command tent anymore!
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May 13, 2023 14:37
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But why would Russia blow up their own air force?!?
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May 13, 2023 14:40
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kemikalkadet posted:But why would Russia blow up their own air force?!? The helicopter in front has the working IFF transponder. When it is shot down, the helicopter in back picks it up and continues.
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May 13, 2023 14:47
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Calvin dad: And to verify the BUK's IFF subsystem they shoot at everything not responding and check twitter after running out of ammo. (They should've run out of ammo after 4 hits.)
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May 13, 2023 14:54
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https://twitter.com/natalkakyiv/status/1657009895491641344?s=46&t=lbKxPpxJyMeDN0i-nFAg4A
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May 13, 2023 15:03
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Hour long interview with Zaluzhny. Only had time to see a few minutes but it's looking really interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TadXxP_26V8&t=1399s
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May 13, 2023 15:15
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Murgos posted:I wonder if there was a brief panic in Russias IADS command center when they locked on to what they thought was an F 15 Pardon my complete ignorance but I wonder if the use of the AD-160 decoy threw off the AD and they got trigger happy. Yeah, it happened in a different area and time but if it were set say, to appear as a f-15 then maybe people on the ground freaked out a bit and were overly heightened?
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