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Considering you can throw the bones far away from the casino or while hidden, how would you distinguish them from a whale? It ain't even concentration, so it would appear entirely mundane
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May 13, 2023 19:26
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The Taxman posted:E: what are everybody's opinions on a Divination wizard using augury to bet all of their money on red at roulette? Another player in one of my sessions tried to use this and it caused a big argument. Portent is not "I am changing the outcome" but instead "I already know what will happen." As such, this isn't them using magic, it's them using their previous knowledge. No one else should know that the Wizard did anything. e: However, a good casino should know to have a Protection From Divination and Detection ward on all of their tables which should prevent this, but the DM would need to be in the know before the Wizard made their claim. Zurreco fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 13, 2023 |
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May 13, 2023 19:32
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Zurreco posted:Portent is not "I am changing the outcome" but instead "I already know what will happen." As such, this isn't them using magic, it's them using their previous knowledge. No one else should know that the Wizard did anything. I guess the type of wizard is unimportant, specifically I'm asking about the Augury spell However those wards are a good idea
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May 13, 2023 19:43
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Augury isn't a wizard spell, it's a Cleric spell, one that specifically involves communing with your patron deity. And no self respecting divinity would stoop to advising their servants on how to cheat at a gambling hall. Even gods of trickery would consider it beneath them unless it was in the service of some greater mischief, rather than just lining their agent's pocket
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May 14, 2023 05:34
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I usually find if my kneejerk reaction is "it doesn't work" it's usually an excuse to do some fun worldbuilding. I think portent or augury should work fine on gambling but that makes you question, how does gambling evolve to take magic into account? How common is magic in your world, and at what levels is it common (e.g., maybe low level magic is quite common but leveled spells or advanced class features are uncommon to rare). To what extent is a casino going to bother changing their games to account for it, versus just bullying people with pointy hats that enter their property? Do they employ their own counter-diviners that find or disrupt divination magic? Or do they just push people around the old fashioned way?
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May 14, 2023 05:43
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Augury became a wizard spell with Tasha's. There's no real way to defend from it because it's instantaneous and doesn't actually target the hypothetical casino in any way. Only way would be to put the casino on an anti magic island more than a 30 min trip away from shore, or something similar. From a DM's perspective though, it's vagueness let's you pretty much dictate the situation. It can simply show nothing, or something can change the circumstances after the casting, changing the outcome. You can even give a good omen, but have the player loose their money, as long as this leads directly to something else that turns things into a net positive.
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May 14, 2023 11:48
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My take as a DM would be that if casinos exist then either augury-like magic doesn't work in a way that allows cheating or something exists to allow the casino to know when augury-like magic is being used. Even with spells of that level being rare, augury-like magic working and being undetectable means anyone setting up a casino is basically lighting a SCAM ME beacon.
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May 14, 2023 13:15
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I'd be inclined to think that the only entity which could provide a reliable outcome on something as pure chance as gambling would be whichever deity is responsible for luck, and to some extent I'd think that providing certainty on a matter of luck is in a sense antithetical to a luck god. Thus my gut feeling is that Augury is useful for identifying if a game is fair, rather than for identifying if you'll win. So asking for betting advice via augury on a fair roulette wheel will probably give "weal and woe" while a rigged wheel will just give "woe". Sacrificing to the luck god or receiving their blessing might tilt the odds in your favour, as might be a priest or cleric. Of course, the casino is probably sacrificing to the luck god too (and if they're an evil casino, the god of misfortune on top of that) so maybe that only evens the odds, and I'd expect casinos to refuse entry to any known members of the luck god's priesthood. Or alternatively, back them off games of chance and tell them they can only play skill games ("You can play blackjack, but you have to card count")! Barring all that, I would think Casinos could get around divinations by having patrons swear that they have not and do not intend for outside interference to adjust the odds of the games they play, and that should they be lying, ask the god of misfortune to rob them of all luck they may have brought with them to the establishment. If someone comes in with a divination on them to help them win, they basically curse themselves when they swear the oath. Reveilled fucked around with this message at 13:21 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 13:16
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The Taxman posted:E: what are everybody's opinions on a Divination wizard using augury to bet all of their money on red at roulette? Another player in one of my sessions tried to use this and it caused a big argument. you say "okay, solid effort, I'll let you do this for some amount of gain once because it's cool and creative but obviously we can't let the game be entirely about this so it's only working once." and then you do not use it to introduce a bunch of casino-related concepts and worldbuilding unless you really, really want to make the entire campaign about those things. if the money is somehow a serious issue for the campaign then I think "when you wait to bet until augury returns 'weal', a good thing happens but it's not necessarily making money" is also a perfectly reasonable dm response because augury is explicitly very imperfect as a predictive tool. gold has no specific meaningful gameplay function that isn't already gated by "dm may I" (e.g. it cannot add to your rolls or increase spell slots without a player first asking hey so can I buy a thing that--") so as long as you take the party's now doubled gold into account when setting prices, it doesn't really matter going forward. If they use it to obtain something that previously seemed out of reach, that's a neat and memorable thing for a player to do and now we've all learned a valuable lesson about using GP pricing as a narrative gate. trying to game out the casino divination countermeasures is the easiest way to ensure the argument continues forever. Valentin fucked around with this message at 13:47 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 13:40
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Valentin posted:you say "okay, solid effort, I'll let you do this for some amount of gain once because it's cool and creative but obviously we can't let the game be entirely about this so it's only working once." and then you do not use it to introduce a bunch of casino-related concepts and worldbuilding unless you really, really want to make the entire campaign about those things. if the money is somehow a serious issue for the campaign then I think "when you wait to bet until augury returns 'weal', a good thing happens but it's not necessarily making money" is also a perfectly reasonable dm response because augury is explicitly very imperfect as a predictive tool. The casino detects them, bans them from gambling, but hires them to do a job instead.
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May 14, 2023 13:51
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I say augury could work well on a non magical casino once. A single middling score that could pass for luck. That's the kind of wizard you are, and character choices should matter, so every gambling house isn't completely protected from your bullshit. But if you try to push your luck you will get marked as a cheater. They may not know how you are cheating but they know something is up because math doesn't lie.
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May 14, 2023 13:56
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Also Casinos ban people for being too good all the drat time. Like Card Counting isn't cheating persay but they don't care and will kick you out. Win too much even without overt cheating and they will kick you out.
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May 14, 2023 13:59
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as a rules fight it's nothing, because augury just straight up doesn't work like that (imagining a divination gambler giving up very quickly because every single question returns "weal and woe" because victory at the table only pulls her deeper into her addiction, while losses take the shine off of gambling but lose her money). as a table fight it should be nothing because you either go "alright nice one" and reward it or "hey come on Jim you know that shortcuts the whole campaign" and handle it that way. the whole thing is a great learning exercise and litmus test. Valentin fucked around with this message at 14:08 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 14:06
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Hra Mormo posted:Only way would be to put the casino on an anti magic island more than a 30 min trip away from shore, or something similar. You could probably get away with games of dice or three card ante at a tavern, but equally if they take the piss or do something really obvious, probably make them roll deception if they're covered in amulets, wearing robes and haven't been using subtle spell.
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May 14, 2023 14:24
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Yusin posted:There is so nods, but Out of the Abyss and the Drizzt novels don't cover the exact same events. The finale of Out of the Abyss explicitly does not happen in the novels. Ahh, okay. I thought it was a direct tie-in: "this is what your adventurers are off doing while those books happen" kinda thing.
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May 14, 2023 14:48
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Dexo posted:Also Casinos ban people for being too good all the drat time.
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May 14, 2023 23:46
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Payndz posted:Fantasy Robert de Niro smashes the cheating wizard's hands with a hammer. "Cast your little spells with those, rear end in a top hat." Exactly. Or the TV show Poker Face where her power is the ability to detect lies which makes her better than average at poker. Within a few months she is infamous on the circuit and blacklisted as a cheater, despite nobody being able to prove she's cheating. I imagine in a D&D world security guards learn to recognise the "adventurer look" and expect bullshit.
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May 15, 2023 07:09
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Yeah, their training seminars gotta be something else. "Wears a robe? Face gets broke!"
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May 15, 2023 07:16
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Bardic inspiration has got to be a pain in the rear end. The bard may not do anything, but one of their friends will have better than average luck a few times per night. And the bard doesn't even have to come into the casino to do it.
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May 15, 2023 07:20
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Facebook Aunt posted:Bardic inspiration has got to be a pain in the rear end. The bard may not do anything, but one of their friends will have better than average luck a few times per night. And the bard doesn't even have to come into the casino to do it. But if it only lasts ten minutes you can watch for anyone rushing through the doors, getting on a table, going big on their first hand, and rushing out. There will be behavioural tells, and if we're taking magic as part of the world, casinos will be experienced in noticing them.
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May 15, 2023 07:51
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For a big casino- The casino has 16 wizards on shift to cast augury with the question "Should we withhold payment from the next big winner for cheating?". Then the potential cheater gets a "Woe" on their own casting, because if they jackpot they're going to get banned from the casino. (Then part of the big heist becomes bribing the right augury wizard to give you the all clear)
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May 15, 2023 09:41
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Lamuella posted:But if it only lasts ten minutes you can watch for anyone rushing through the doors, getting on a table, going big on their first hand, and rushing out. There will be behavioural tells, and if we're taking magic as part of the world, casinos will be experienced in noticing them. Every casino has a entrance greeting crew with some combination of c-tier celebrities, bouncers, and scantily clad folks whose only job is to delay you for 10 minutes after entering. They'll give you a tour, flirt with you, teach you how to play their newest game, anything to keep you delayed for 10 minutes before turning you loose on the floor. Anyone who tries to blow past them and gamble within 10 minutes immediately gets a cattle prod to the armpit.
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May 15, 2023 14:09
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This is all why you just break in and steal all the gold. Skip the middleman. Edgin’s 11
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May 15, 2023 14:45
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You cast Augury and ask if you should go on all in on red at the high noon roulette game in the northwest corner. You get a response of Weal. You get in position, place your bet, and watch as green 00 comes up. You lose everything. Later, you directly commune with your deity and ask what that was about. They make it clear that gambling is amoral and they wanted to get any desires to gamble out of your system so you could focus on tasks that would better serve you in the long run.
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May 15, 2023 16:02
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Part of it is also going to depend on how commonplace magic is in your setting. If you're the first wizard in 200 years, nobody will know how to stop you. If there are six wizards storefront on the same street as the casino they will be a lot more developed in the arms race.
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May 15, 2023 16:07
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I’m always in favor of letting player schemes work if at all possible, at least seemingly at face value. Let the side effects and complications slide into view later after you have time to really concoct some rat bastard counter-schemes. The delay has the effect of tricking your players into thinking you’re smarter than you actually are. “Oh you must have planned this from the beginning.”
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May 15, 2023 16:12
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Tias posted:Yeah, their training seminars gotta be something else. "Wears a robe? Face gets broke!" I think randomly antagonizing every wizard constitutes a Bad Idea; your problem stops being cheating and becomes things like “casino fireballed to the ground”, “oops suddenly relocated to the Abyss”, or “cursed so EVERYONE wins big against the house”. I expect you could probably deal with the occasional magic cheat by making a deal with the setting’s luck god(dess) to shut down such “blasphemy”, which would also reassure people you aren’t running an (excessively) rigged casino since that would also piss off said luck god.
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May 15, 2023 22:21
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I think Bardic Inspiration isn't magical, and it can just be stirring words, so there's really nothing stopping it from working right at the poker table. Just give a quick speech about how great poker is and boom. And short of banning encouragement there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. Of course this is mostly an argument against treating it as some known function of the world instead of just a narrative enhancing piece of story kit. Otherwise the next step is just a line of hired bard pit bosses inspiring all the dealers. Also the augury trick should work once and then just always return Woe because the fates are worried you might be developing a gambling problem, which would surely be woeful. theironjef fucked around with this message at 22:39 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 22:25
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theironjef posted:I think Bardic Inspiration isn't magical, and it can just be stirring words, so there's really nothing stopping it from working right at the poker table. Just give a quick speech about how great poker is and boom. And short of banning encouragement there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. Banning encouragement doesn't seem that unreasonable though? Either the bard is not playing, and the dealer telling them to go away really wouldn't be weird at all, or they are and then they might get kicked out for collusion. I'm also not sure what the dealers would use the inspiration for, unless you mean perception checks to catch someone straight up cheating?
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May 15, 2023 22:44
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You think banning encouragement is reasonable in a casino? Have you ever been to a craps table? Honestly that's exactly why it should just be treated as a bit of narrative toolkit and not a known entity that "bards make everyone a semi random but measurable bit better at things". You end up having to ban encouragement.
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May 15, 2023 22:48
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Bardic Inspiration may not be magical, but it sure comes off as supernatural given the context. More to the point, there is nothing in the real world that an associate of yours can do to improve your odds at a game of chance aside from cheating. Bards can directly affect the outcome of a similar game of chance. As such, D&D casinos worth their salt would also ban encouragement or friends at the table just in case. Alternatively, the pit boss is a trained Eloquence Bard that can not only identify when someone is using Bardic Inspiration, but also can counter it with Unsettling Words when a player gets a bit too hot.
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May 16, 2023 00:15
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The wizard wins the gambling but when he is about to fall asleep Jiminy Cricket speaks in his ear and is like "wow you think you're so cool" and takes the wizard to see a soup kitchen and they don't have any soup, they couldn't afford to buy any, because you see, it was a non-profit casino ran by a family of awakened rabbits and the only way they can afford to feed their children every night is by the winnings of the casino and then cute baby bunny after cute baby bunny grabs its stomach in pain and cries, starving.
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May 16, 2023 02:42
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theironjef posted:Also the augury trick should work once and then just always return Woe because the fates are worried you might be developing a gambling problem, which would surely be woeful. the fates start returning Weal all the time because they're gambling addicts in recovery living vicariously through you
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May 16, 2023 02:55
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Zurreco posted:Bardic Inspiration may not be magical, but it sure comes off as supernatural given the context. More to the point, there is nothing in the real world that an associate of yours can do to improve your odds at a game of chance aside from cheating. Bards can directly affect the outcome of a similar game of chance. As such, D&D casinos worth their salt would also ban encouragement or friends at the table just in case. I guess my question is why is everyone assuming the actual act of gambling is an ability check? What ability check would it even be? Because that's the only way Bardic Inspiration would actually work in this scenario. I mean, it'd be one thing to inspire a Dexterity Sleight of Hand check, or maybe help with a Deception check to bluff, but that's just helping out with regular ways of playing the game (or cheating), which is kind of different from what we're talking about here. More like being more likely to pull out the hidden ace up your sleeve without being noticed than changing fate itself. It's not like Bardic Inspiration can affect rolls that aren't Ability Checks, Saving Throws, Attack Rolls and Healing or Damage rolls with Tasha's. And yeah, in that case, you'd just have to hire Pit Bosses with high perception/insight to counteract it, no magic required.
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May 16, 2023 03:24
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Yeah, this is exactly why I sort of hate what 3e did to folks and D&D in general, in this case wrapped up in the notion that bardic inspiration is a discrete thing that has like a visible tell and a start point and end point. It's just a story beat, it's basically "You remember that time a cool guy gave you some advice or sung a rad song you like" and then you do that thing you're trying to do but better. It's a common narrative tool in stories. It's Obi-Wan's voice saying "Use the force, Luke" and no one else is like "Well obviously Luke cheated at shooting the Death Star because a ghost bard whispered a magic trick in his ear." A bard doesn't even need to be around for his inspiration to go off, so there's literally nothing for any amount of trained bouncers to spot. It's not magic, so if right before you sit down at the poker table some bard hits you with the chorus to The Gambler and disappears into the crowd, you can sit down and at some point in the next ten minutes be like "He was right. I DO know when to hold 'em!" What's gonna happen then, some pit boss is gonna be all "That guy looks inspired! Break his thumbs, boys!"?quote:I guess my question is why is everyone assuming the actual act of gambling is an ability check? What ability check would it even be? Because that's the only way Bardic Inspiration would actually work in this scenario. I mean, it'd be one thing to inspire a Dexterity Sleight of Hand check, or maybe help with a Deception check to bluff, but that's just helping out with regular ways of playing the game (or cheating), which is kind of different from what we're talking about here. More like being more likely to pull out the hidden ace up your sleeve without being noticed than changing fate itself. It's not like Bardic Inspiration can affect rolls that aren't Ability Checks, Saving Throws, Attack Rolls and Healing or Damage rolls with Tasha's. This too. theironjef fucked around with this message at 06:33 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 06:30
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theironjef posted:Yeah, this is exactly why I sort of hate what 3e did to folks and D&D in general, in this case wrapped up in the notion that bardic inspiration is a discrete thing that has like a visible tell and a start point and end point. It's just a story beat, it's basically "You remember that time a cool guy gave you some advice or sung a rad song you like" and then you do that thing you're trying to do but better. It's a common narrative tool in stories. It's Obi-Wan's voice saying "Use the force, Luke" and no one else is like "Well obviously Luke cheated at shooting the Death Star because a ghost bard whispered a magic trick in his ear." A bard doesn't even need to be around for his inspiration to go off, so there's literally nothing for any amount of trained bouncers to spot. It's not magic, so if right before you sit down at the poker table some bard hits you with the chorus to The Gambler and disappears into the crowd, you can sit down and at some point in the next ten minutes be like "He was right. I DO know when to hold 'em!" What's gonna happen then, some pit boss is gonna be all "That guy looks inspired! Break his thumbs, boys!"? Precisely! The pit bosses want reliable, depressed gambling addicts in their casinos! Not some happy-go-lucky stranger who looks awfully inspired and cheerful - they might have some new trick up their sleeve, to beat the system! 
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May 16, 2023 06:35
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MadDogMike posted:I think randomly antagonizing every wizard constitutes a Bad Idea; your problem stops being cheating and becomes things like “casino fireballed to the ground”, “oops suddenly relocated to the Abyss”, or “cursed so EVERYONE wins big against the house”. I expect you could probably deal with the occasional magic cheat by making a deal with the setting’s luck god(dess) to shut down such “blasphemy”, which would also reassure people you aren’t running an (excessively) rigged casino since that would also piss off said luck god. Good point! Perhaps I'd settle for ensorcelled tables. "Oh you lost at the Craps Table -3? Yeah, that's how they get you."
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May 16, 2023 06:40
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...ad this is why we'll never get the warlord ever again, and martial only characters will never be as good as magic users.
YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 07:15 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 07:09
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Major Isoor posted:Precisely! The pit bosses want reliable, depressed gambling addicts in their casinos! Not some happy-go-lucky stranger who looks awfully inspired and cheerful - they might have some new trick up their sleeve, to beat the system! does this mean 21 is actually the best D&D movie
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May 16, 2023 07:17
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You could probably lean on "I'd like to use my wisdom/intelligence to guide my betting choices (card counting, knowing when to hold, etc)" or "i'd like to use my perception to detect any bluffing / flaws in the dice / flaws on the table" and get some inspiration on a difficult DC check. There's definitely wriggle room around the edges, even if there's no check for straight up luck.
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May 16, 2023 07:40
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