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Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

Was that the weird loving half-Vivec magic angel self insert creature?

RoHT had a lot going for it but christ some of the writing was another level of dire

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Stuporstar
May 5, 2008

Where do fists come from?

mbt posted:

I could be convinced to add more to roht. I mostly just wanted to excise the weird lore of the main character which was a monumental task considering how load-bearing that characterization was.

Oh yeah, I totally get that. Like you took care of the important poo poo first, fixing what’s there. And I see you at least made obliterating the Mages Guild optional rather than a failure if you don’t. The “you have to be an eeeeevil wizard to succeed” was my biggest peeve, cause being a member of the amoral wizard faction means it should be equally valid to play chaotic good. Antislavery options are another big one for me

A lot of what I wanted to see was additional though, like converting Folms Mirel and setting him up in Falenserano. A few people I talked to wanted to be able to recruit their Mage Guild faves into the Telvanni as well—not necessarily giving them a tower. I think in the RoHT patch I was last working on, I gave Ajira a housepod budding off Tel Dwemeris on someone’s request.

Dragomorph posted:

You have my attention as an adventure gamer. :getin:

Hell yes. I’ve always wished my favorite RPGs would just be a little more like Quest for Glory

Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 21:25 on May 10, 2023

FlocksOfMice
Feb 3, 2009
The idea in RoHT that you WANT to destroy the Mages Guild or whatever also just seems fundamentally weird to me. This is an Imperial Institution, and yeah, Telvanni as a faction doesn't want none of that--but this is one of the largest Imperial Institutions AROUND. Declaring actual war and destroying the Mages Guild is like, that's a very easy and fast way to have someone go "Uhhh you're breaking the terms of the Armistice??" which results in way more politics than a group that is strongly anti-political should want. Actually declaring any kind of war on the Mages Guild should have a strong risk of, like, if not literal imperial fleets outside of the more isolated Telvanni towers, other severe political ramifications as other Great Houses are forced to distance themselves from the Telvanni as they become absolute pariahs.

Just because Telvanni is a noble house that USES magic doesn't really make sense that they look at the Mages Guild and go "these are our competitors, because they're the good guy mages!" Dunmer Great Houses, and TR's team seems to agree, aren't JUST "Fighters Guild Thieves Guild Mages Guild but for Dunmer" they are political factions that have thematic flavors to one playstyle or another or favor one kind of skill but like, House Telvanni is an entire political body comprising wizard lords but also craftsmen and farmers and guys who haul muck from place to place and guar tamers and netch herders and musk chemists. The Mages Guild is a handful of buildings and a few groups of field researchers. They sell spells and potions to the public. House Telvanni is several actual cities, some of which are like a thousand years old.

It's a very RPG playeroriented mindset to go "Well these are the BAD mages, they can't stomach the GOOD mages being around!"

In vanilla you work against the Mages Guild monopoly on magic which makes sense, that's your shared field of profit? But Telvanni doesn't really WANT to mantain a network of public transport. Telvanni doesn't really WANT to train and moderate upcoming wizards and debate spell ethics and do all the functions the Mages Guild does. That they NEED to conflict to the point where there can Be Only One seems like such an artificial and gamey reading of the setting.

I think in RoHT you get like, a bunch of Mages Guild members into House Telvanni and they all build towers, right? It just seems weird to me that House Telvanni necessarily would WANT, would go out of their way, to specifically talent-scout people in a faction based on anarchic meritocracy.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.
Yeah, a handful of targeted attacks or assassinations on individual Mage Guild members that are seen to be encroaching too much on Telvanni spheres of influence would make sense, destroying an entire imperial institution that doesn't seem to actual impede them in any real way seems insane, and not the fun kind of insane that Telvanni excel at.

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)
What would be more thematic is the Telvanni masses themselves start agitating against the Mage's guild cutting in on their traditional crafts and the Telvanni have to figure out whether they want the bother of letting it get out of control or being seen as Imperial stooges when they crush the uprising to maintain the status quo.

Stuporstar
May 5, 2008

Where do fists come from?

FlocksOfMice posted:

The idea in RoHT that you WANT to destroy the Mages Guild or whatever also just seems fundamentally weird to me. This is an Imperial Institution, and yeah, Telvanni as a faction doesn't want none of that--but this is one of the largest Imperial Institutions AROUND. Declaring actual war and destroying the Mages Guild is like, that's a very easy and fast way to have someone go "Uhhh you're breaking the terms of the Armistice??" which results in way more politics than a group that is strongly anti-political should want. Actually declaring any kind of war on the Mages Guild should have a strong risk of, like, if not literal imperial fleets outside of the more isolated Telvanni towers, other severe political ramifications as other Great Houses are forced to distance themselves from the Telvanni as they become absolute pariahs.

Just because Telvanni is a noble house that USES magic doesn't really make sense that they look at the Mages Guild and go "these are our competitors, because they're the good guy mages!" Dunmer Great Houses, and TR's team seems to agree, aren't JUST "Fighters Guild Thieves Guild Mages Guild but for Dunmer" they are political factions that have thematic flavors to one playstyle or another or favor one kind of skill but like, House Telvanni is an entire political body comprising wizard lords but also craftsmen and farmers and guys who haul muck from place to place and guar tamers and netch herders and musk chemists. The Mages Guild is a handful of buildings and a few groups of field researchers. They sell spells and potions to the public. House Telvanni is several actual cities, some of which are like a thousand years old.

It's a very RPG playeroriented mindset to go "Well these are the BAD mages, they can't stomach the GOOD mages being around!"

In vanilla you work against the Mages Guild monopoly on magic which makes sense, that's your shared field of profit? But Telvanni doesn't really WANT to mantain a network of public transport. Telvanni doesn't really WANT to train and moderate upcoming wizards and debate spell ethics and do all the functions the Mages Guild does. That they NEED to conflict to the point where there can Be Only One seems like such an artificial and gamey reading of the setting.

I think in RoHT you get like, a bunch of Mages Guild members into House Telvanni and they all build towers, right? It just seems weird to me that House Telvanni necessarily would WANT, would go out of their way, to specifically talent-scout people in a faction based on anarchic meritocracy.

Completely agree.

It’s why I’d much prefer an option to infiltrate the Mages Guild just to keep a check on their activities, cause it’s mostly the Mages Guild loving with the Telvanni in the original quests and not the other way around. In my mind, poaching their most effective members would be part of a strategy to just neuter them and keep them boffing around doing nothing more than harmless training and poo poo.

Like in QTA, I took into count options where the player is a member of opposing factions and has to deal with that. So like treating the “Telvanni spy” working for Archmage Trebonius as really a spy, and as a Telvanni you can work with him to set up Ranis Athrys to stop her hassling Telvanni about paying Mage Guild dues and all that other poo poo.

Trebonius asking you to kill all the Telvanni Councilors, even the original game treats that as kinda “wtf Trebonius,” but I guess Pozzo was like, “ok but what if I made a mod that was tit for tat” but then cranked it to 11 with the Evil Overlord meglomania poo poo. The thing about Evil Overlords is they characteristically overreach and that’s one of the many reasons for their downfall. Like yeah, destroying the Mages Guild would pretty much invite disaster, and I’d like to see a version of RoHT where you get a proportionate loving over from the Empire for breaking the Armistice by pulling that poo poo

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

I run open perms, if you want to support the latest roht iteration please be my guest lol

Stuporstar
May 5, 2008

Where do fists come from?

mbt posted:

I run open perms, if you want to support the latest roht iteration please be my guest lol

Lol I might. I can’t work at anything but a snail’s pace anymore though, so it’ll take forever. I gave Lucivar permission to incorporate anything from QTA in her huge dialogue and quest overhaul, but I haven’t checked how much she incorporated

FlocksOfMice
Feb 3, 2009
There's also nothing in vanilla stopping you from becoming Vvardenfell's Archmage AND Archmagister and honestly it doesn't... make sense you couldn't? House Telvanni is a political affiliation and the Mages Guild is a trade guild, it honestly makes SENSE for Telvanni to have some ambitious rear end in a top hat take over the Mages Guild and the House at the same time and go "Okay now I'm in charge of both" as a way to cut out any interference. There are mods that make it so you can't join HT and MG at the same time and that seems kinda silly to me honestly? Telvanni NOT having any fingers in the MG feels weird. It's like, hey here's this trade guild dedicated to the thing your political faction is good at--do you ignore it, try to destroy it, or sign up a bunch of your low ranking members to it and take it over from the bottom up by just polluting its work culture with your own?

It's all one of the big problems of Morrowind's modding culture maturing over the years I think? Early on Morrowind was the only game you COULD mod like this, so you got stuff like Sloth's Goth Shop and faery princess sparkle designer clothes boutique in the Ascadian Isles like the Ascadian Isles were some fanciful magical paradise and not where most of the slaves in Vvardenfell are worked to death. Stuff like Vampire Embrace ignoring elderscrolls vampire lore in favor of putting Anne Rice vampirisms where feeding on someone has them go "Oh yes, it's so much fun to feel you bite me teehee :3 i can't resist..." It was the only game that had space for ANY kind of stuff like this so everyone just kinda tossed it in like a single player SecondLife.

And it was "fine" at the time but there's been so many mods between OAAB and TR and stuff taking the lore way more seriously where stuff that was okay Back Then now just sticks out so drastically in comparison.

It's kinda like the shift in the webcomics climate where very amateur stuff like Dominic Deegan and Megatokyo were acceptable on a relative scale, but the genre has become way more professional and now stuff like that sticks out as being really, really bad because there's become quality to compare it to? That kinda happened to Morrowind modding where anyone releasing a long questline was releasing gold, but now there are like, standards and stuff and having a Vivec-faced superqueen who's way cooler than you just doesn't get to get away with itself anymore lol.

Telvanni being a sort of dangling thread in TR makes it hard too I think to really get a good handle on Telvanni modding? TR still has an Archmagister Dral and I don't know if the plan is still to demote Gothren even though a lot of modern mods have done things like make Gothren a legitimate threat and make Tel Aruhn into a believable Archmagister tower and with a lot of TR's Telvanni up for change it feels like Telvanni modding is in a liminal state where nothing's landed on the ground yet? Any big sweeping Telvanni mod released today is going to probably eventually conflict with what TR does with the Telvanni rework when it finally comes around in some way or another.

Stuporstar
May 5, 2008

Where do fists come from?
By now they’ve put out enough of their plans that I’m following along and planning for it. Like yeah, they’re gonna demote Gothren to Magister, but my edit to make him a viable threat will just account for that (since you still have to kill him to become Magister of Vvardenfell if you choose, I read). And the “seal of the Archmagister” can just have a name change to Magister to go along with it, nbd.

And since the questline is gonna extend how long it takes to rise up the ranks, my rebuild of Tel Uvirith is gonna make the lower tower more viable, and I’ll have them dig the dungeon before the upper tower is built because they’re really eager uncover Uvirith’s Tomb in this version.

As for the RoHT stuff, yeah… it would need another overhaul for TR

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)
Should just keep two arch-magisters. If any house were to have a magister take up residence out in the loving sticks and unilaterally declare themselves the anti-archmagister to absolutely no response, it's Telvanni.

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Should just keep two arch-magisters. If any house were to have a magister take up residence out in the loving sticks and unilaterally declare themselves the anti-archmagister to absolutely no response, it's Telvanni.

I don't remember the specifics (i don't particularly enjoy telvanni or the silly contrived solutions to this issue) but iirc the justification is that the True Archmagister Dral is so cooped up in his pocket plane that he got effectively usurped by Gothren on Vvardenfell and no one is around to stop him. The bylaws dictate that you have to actually kill the person, so in theory gothren isn't archmagister yet, but realistically he is. also dral becomes a mothmonsterman or something and attacks you in his special dimension, the end.

FlocksOfMice
Feb 3, 2009
The whole thing with Dral seems kinda weird to me, honestly. I can't think of many more TR instances where they are actively changing vanilla lore on such a direct scale like that, and it's in service of like... a super coolest bestest wizard ever (older documents described him as being almost as old as Divayth Fyr and more powerfuller than Gothren and just the coolest super wizard evar) and going through so much work just to justify like... their own OC? Sorta? It feels like someone's cool OC who is still hanging around the design of the game because of intertia of how cool he is?

It reminds me of SCP-076, who was a bishounen anime boy who was also Abel from the bible but named Able and he was shirtless and slept in a coffin and covered in demon tattoos and he could summon swords out of the darkness and the SCP team realizes they can work WITH him so he assembles a super cool awesome team and they go around fighting monsters and for a long time after the SCP project started taking things more seriously, 076 was still around by virtue of "no HomerS, we're allowed to have one!" until they finally diegetically put him back in his box with the explanation of "No he was dangerous and started killing when we ran out of things for him to kill" and an in-character note saying in and out of character "We aren't sweeping this under the rug, people have to know the mistake we made so we don't repeat it."

And Dral feels a lot like that--this super coolest Telvanni megaboss that now all of the lore in the base game has to be tweaked around so he can be justified to exist.

And instead of retconning a bunch of stuff in the vanilla game and causing huge conflicts with mods that incorporate TR lore and mods that don't and just making things really weird... just... not having an Archmagister Dral who's ACTUALLY the coolest oldest bestest wizard seems... the obvious answer???

Also the argument that at least in the forums was still going back in like 2016 of "why would anyone want to become a mouth, when mouths are mindwiped cloneslave proxies because that's what we apparently decided is what they're supposed to be despite that not being what they are in the game at all."

There's a lot in the Telvanni design documents that are like... going through a lot of work to justify how something works, when the thing itself is something TR made up at some point and all the problems of implementing it in the lore is because they made it up and it doesn't match the existing setting.

I'm not part of TR tho like I do not have the brain energy to commit to it so I don't have a hat in the ring and I don't know what's been discussed about it since things moved to the discords, but a lot of it feels very silly.

FlocksOfMice fucked around with this message at 06:33 on May 11, 2023

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

FlocksOfMice posted:



It's all one of the big problems of Morrowind's modding culture maturing over the years I think? Early on Morrowind was the only game you COULD mod like this, so you got stuff like Sloth's Goth Shop and faery princess sparkle designer clothes boutique in the Ascadian Isles like the Ascadian Isles were some fanciful magical paradise and not where most of the slaves in Vvardenfell are worked to death. Stuff like Vampire Embrace ignoring elderscrolls vampire lore in favor of putting Anne Rice vampirisms where feeding on someone has them go "Oh yes, it's so much fun to feel you bite me teehee :3 i can't resist..." It was the only game that had space for ANY kind of stuff like this so everyone just kinda tossed it in like a single player SecondLife.

And it was "fine" at the time but there's been so many mods between OAAB and TR and stuff taking the lore way more seriously where stuff that was okay Back Then now just sticks out so drastically in comparison.

This is why Muffinwind, amidst all the forgotten and ill-advised 2005-era quest mods (even the largely excellent Havish has characters from the Drizzt books who disable you in cutscenes), has remained timeless. I spent a great deal of time ensuring that while it wears its silliness on its sleeve, it is fully in line with the lore and setting*, even taking feedback on board in later patches to ensure that existing characters had their dialogue rewritten to remain properly respectful to their characterisation. I briefly thought about redesigning the short Necrom section a few years ago to look in line with TR's Necrom but I have my limits.

*(results may vary)

Fake Name
Mar 6, 2009


"Han Solo, ha. If I'm around, you don't need that guy."

Air Skwirl posted:

Yeah, a handful of targeted attacks or assassinations on individual Mage Guild members that are seen to be encroaching too much on Telvanni spheres of influence would make sense, destroying an entire imperial institution that doesn't seem to actual impede them in any real way seems insane, and not the fun kind of insane that Telvanni excel at.

To add to the "murder shouldn't be the default or only option" it would be great if you could work to get problematic Mages guild members reassigned to distant or small outposts or set them up to get expelled from the guild.

Makes me want to try learning modding...

Dragomorph
Aug 21, 2007

HE'S NOT A REAL GOON, SAM!

Can I keep his head as a souvenir?

Say, why is it ticking?

FlocksOfMice posted:

OC do not steal Archmagister Dral and the whole Mouths thing, etc.

Telvannis is the first region they released, right? Which would have put it smack dab into that early period of anything goes modding that got mentioned earlier. It could be that those ideas came from that era, and by the time the current folks came in it was so deeply entrenched that it was difficult to extract it again. I remember reading the history of the project and there's been a lot of cultural changes since the start of the project. I couldn't say for certain though.

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008


I'm playing this for the first time, I made a Redguard Rogue. What is the most broken stuff I can do as early as possible in a new game? I followed this guide and stole the warehouse stuff

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Starting_Out

FlocksOfMice
Feb 3, 2009

Dragomorph posted:

Telvannis is the first region they released, right? Which would have put it smack dab into that early period of anything goes modding that got mentioned earlier. It could be that those ideas came from that era, and by the time the current folks came in it was so deeply entrenched that it was difficult to extract it again. I remember reading the history of the project and there's been a lot of cultural changes since the start of the project. I couldn't say for certain though.

Yeah Telvannis was the first release, and back then, the mainland factions were entirely separate factions and House Telvanni outright had dialogue talking about "No no the vanilla-game Telvanni are all actually rogues and we don't recognize them as House Telvanni at all, if you want us to take you seriously you have to join OUR House Telvanni and start from the bottom" which was kinda like... dumb, and there were mods to unify the factions long before that was just how it worked by default and now even TR's Ma'iq makes fun of the idea.

So yeah afair Dral has been there as the mainland Archmagister and he seems to sorta just stick around as the cool OC donut steel and now it's the struggle of how to justify his inclusion into a lore which contradicts him despite HIM being the odd one out and, idk! It seems such a strange artifact to hold on to when instead it could just be, the mainland Telvanni are more conservative and far less political than the Vvardnefell ones (which is stated in lore) and there just isn't the leader of the faction in Port Telvannis

Fake Name posted:

To add to the "murder shouldn't be the default or only option" it would be great if you could work to get problematic Mages guild members reassigned to distant or small outposts or set them up to get expelled from the guild.

Makes me want to try learning modding...

Modding is very easy, dumbass child me figured it out when I was 14 to the point where I made several personal mods that rewrote the main quest so that you were actually a Telvanni agent instead of an imperial agent and it was easy. Look up tutorials, learn how to clean your mods, make a few practice bits, have fun it's super accessible.

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream

icantfindaname posted:

I'm playing this for the first time, I made a Redguard Rogue. What is the most broken stuff I can do as early as possible in a new game? I followed this guide and stole the warehouse stuff

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Starting_Out

It’s hard not to break Morrowind even just playing normally but if you really want to speedrun the removal of all challenge look up the list of artifacts on the wiki and try hunt down the most OP ones asap. Chrysamere, Lord’s Mail or Savior’s Hide, the helmet that gives you 40 each of agi and end. Some of them might be tricky to grab early but you can probably google around and find pro tricks to get them at level 1. Not sure if they’re technically an artifact or just a unique enchant but definitely grab the boots of blinding speed asap (they’re easy to get early) and make a spell that gives you 100% magic resist for a second or two to counter their drawback when you put them on, they’re an amazing QOL upgrade. There’s two hidden merchants that buy poo poo for base price regardless of your personality/mercantile which are great for selling expensive loot early: Creeper upstairs in the manor house full of IRC’s than in front of you when you enter Caldera from the south, and the mudcrab merchant on an island east of Vivec which you’ll need to look up to find. Once you’ve sold them a bit of expensive poo poo look up the master mercantile trainer and level that up high then go do the raven rock quest line on solstheim which will give you access to a merchant with 10k gold (choose the Smith) and you can sell them poo poo with a base price of like 6.5k for 10k, wait 24 hours for their money to replenish, buy it back off them for 3-4k, then sell it again for 10k+. Repeat every 24 hours for infinite free money, look up where the master trainers for the skills you want are and turn your infinite money into 100 in all your skills

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

icantfindaname posted:

I'm playing this for the first time, I made a Redguard Rogue. What is the most broken stuff I can do as early as possible in a new game? I followed this guide and stole the warehouse stuff

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Starting_Out

Ignore all of that and just play the game. Don't try to metagame, the game is piss easy. I know people say this for other games, they're like "dude just play the game don't worry half the fun is figuring it out". Most of the time they're lying, there's some optimal builds that make the game less frustrating and they're hoping you discover them organically.

In Morrowind this is actually the case. Don't try stealth or pickpocketing, they don't work in the vanilla game. Other than that you can't lose.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink
You don't want to chase down a named artifact. You want to find a weapon that just incidentally has Paralysis 10 Seconds On Hit.

ContinuityNewTimes
Dec 30, 2010

Я выдуман напрочь

icantfindaname posted:

I'm playing this for the first time, I made a Redguard Rogue. What is the most broken stuff I can do as early as possible in a new game? I followed this guide and stole the warehouse stuff

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Starting_Out

Make intelligence potions, chug them then brew more. Repeat. Congratulations, you have broken the game completely

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

FlocksOfMice posted:

The whole thing with Dral seems kinda weird to me, honestly. I can't think of many more TR instances where they are actively changing vanilla lore on such a direct scale like that, and it's in service of like... a super coolest bestest wizard ever (older documents described him as being almost as old as Divayth Fyr and more powerfuller than Gothren and just the coolest super wizard evar) and going through so much work just to justify like... their own OC? Sorta? It feels like someone's cool OC who is still hanging around the design of the game because of intertia of how cool he is?

It reminds me of SCP-076, who was a bishounen anime boy who was also Abel from the bible but named Able and he was shirtless and slept in a coffin and covered in demon tattoos and he could summon swords out of the darkness and the SCP team realizes they can work WITH him so he assembles a super cool awesome team and they go around fighting monsters and for a long time after the SCP project started taking things more seriously, 076 was still around by virtue of "no HomerS, we're allowed to have one!" until they finally diegetically put him back in his box with the explanation of "No he was dangerous and started killing when we ran out of things for him to kill" and an in-character note saying in and out of character "We aren't sweeping this under the rug, people have to know the mistake we made so we don't repeat it."

And Dral feels a lot like that--this super coolest Telvanni megaboss that now all of the lore in the base game has to be tweaked around so he can be justified to exist.

And instead of retconning a bunch of stuff in the vanilla game and causing huge conflicts with mods that incorporate TR lore and mods that don't and just making things really weird... just... not having an Archmagister Dral who's ACTUALLY the coolest oldest bestest wizard seems... the obvious answer???

Also the argument that at least in the forums was still going back in like 2016 of "why would anyone want to become a mouth, when mouths are mindwiped cloneslave proxies because that's what we apparently decided is what they're supposed to be despite that not being what they are in the game at all."

There's a lot in the Telvanni design documents that are like... going through a lot of work to justify how something works, when the thing itself is something TR made up at some point and all the problems of implementing it in the lore is because they made it up and it doesn't match the existing setting.

I'm not part of TR tho like I do not have the brain energy to commit to it so I don't have a hat in the ring and I don't know what's been discussed about it since things moved to the discords, but a lot of it feels very silly.

I wouldn't read dral as a power fantasy, he's intentionally a bad telvanni who lucked into a role he's unqualified for and is unwilling to play the game. He would have been a prime mages guild candidate who loves research and magic for the sake of magic and couldn't care less about the politicking. Defeating him for the true archmagister title is only required for de facto leadership and not de jure leadership. He's written as a recluse too socially awkward to deal with the outside world.

Hlaalu also gets the decapitation with John narsis being the true leader. That's less contentious I think because no one likes hlaalu. Redoran is the only one confirmed as being completely on vvardenfell.

You should join the Discord and become a developer lol

FlocksOfMice
Feb 3, 2009

mbt posted:

I wouldn't read dral as a power fantasy, he's intentionally a bad telvanni who lucked into a role he's unqualified for and is unwilling to play the game. He would have been a prime mages guild candidate who loves research and magic for the sake of magic and couldn't care less about the politicking. Defeating him for the true archmagister title is only required for de facto leadership and not de jure leadership. He's written as a recluse too socially awkward to deal with the outside world.

Hlaalu also gets the decapitation with John narsis being the true leader. That's less contentious I think because no one likes hlaalu. Redoran is the only one confirmed as being completely on vvardenfell.

You should join the Discord and become a developer lol

That's FAIR, I'm working off of like older forum posts and I don't know what the plan is up to right now tbh. And I spend a lot of my time in bad fiction voyeurism so I'm primed to look at things through certain lenses--that is, the reluctance to kill your sacred cows.

I actually LIKE Hlaalu half my playthroughs have been Hlaalu but I think Hlaalu also has the benefit of by design kind of being a headless beast? Like technically isn't Duke Vedam Dren the head of Hlaalu but he barely factors into the quests themselves. It seems more of a... weird republic kinda organization? I don't think it'd be weird if TR added a new Hlaalu headguy because like Vedam Dren is already the head guy but Orvas Dren and the Cammona Tong are also already the head guy and it feels like it's very primed for that sort of corporate "yeah so this is the CEO but this is the president and this is the founder and--" kinda stuff ngl.

I very much WANT to work on TR but my IRL life is a bit unstable and unsecure so I'm holding off on trying to join until I know I can actually like... commit to working on it? Covid kinda threw my life on a 3 year weirdo path and joining something big and new is more than I have the mental space for right now. Morrowind is my actual unironic autism hyperfocus and I'd love to spend a ton of time working on projects for it! I don't think TR is wrapping up in a year or two so there'll be time for it at least lol.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
john narsis sounds like the name of an EVEN WORSE mod self-insert.

also I'm gonna echo what mbt said, just playing morrowind and not worrying about breaking it is really a good idea. however, if you must, from that uesp page are links to two other pages called "Quest Timing" and "Hints" that will give you lots to work with to get you started.

Stuporstar
May 5, 2008

Where do fists come from?

mbt posted:

I wouldn't read dral as a power fantasy, he's intentionally a bad telvanni who lucked into a role he's unqualified for and is unwilling to play the game. He would have been a prime mages guild candidate who loves research and magic for the sake of magic and couldn't care less about the politicking. Defeating him for the true archmagister title is only required for de facto leadership and not de jure leadership. He's written as a recluse too socially awkward to deal with the outside world.

Hlaalu also gets the decapitation with John narsis being the true leader. That's less contentious I think because no one likes hlaalu. Redoran is the only one confirmed as being completely on vvardenfell.

You should join the Discord and become a developer lol

Also if they’re making him powerful as a boss you have to kill, that’s totally within reason for added high level content

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

Stuporstar posted:

Also if they’re making him powerful as a boss you have to kill, that’s totally within reason for added high level content

this. TR and morrowind in general lacks challenges for high level characters

partially because the mechanics devolve past level 20, also because things are balanced around dagoth ur/expansions. its somethign i hoped to fix with my rebalances, and the TR balancing is definitely taking those into account

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

FlocksOfMice posted:

That's FAIR, I'm working off of like older forum posts and I don't know what the plan is up to right now tbh. And I spend a lot of my time in bad fiction voyeurism so I'm primed to look at things through certain lenses--that is, the reluctance to kill your sacred cows.

I actually LIKE Hlaalu half my playthroughs have been Hlaalu but I think Hlaalu also has the benefit of by design kind of being a headless beast? Like technically isn't Duke Vedam Dren the head of Hlaalu but he barely factors into the quests themselves. It seems more of a... weird republic kinda organization? I don't think it'd be weird if TR added a new Hlaalu headguy because like Vedam Dren is already the head guy but Orvas Dren and the Cammona Tong are also already the head guy and it feels like it's very primed for that sort of corporate "yeah so this is the CEO but this is the president and this is the founder and--" kinda stuff ngl.

I very much WANT to work on TR but my IRL life is a bit unstable and unsecure so I'm holding off on trying to join until I know I can actually like... commit to working on it? Covid kinda threw my life on a 3 year weirdo path and joining something big and new is more than I have the mental space for right now. Morrowind is my actual unironic autism hyperfocus and I'd love to spend a ton of time working on projects for it! I don't think TR is wrapping up in a year or two so there'll be time for it at least lol.

yeah nbd, if you made a quest showcase i could get you in pretty easily. you know how the cs works and speak english as a first language which clears both initial hurdles.

here's the actual telvanni writeup we're going with. I think it does a good job of justifying the vanilla divergences. I was just going off memory for the last few posts, so excuse me if I completely forgot what the plan actually was lol
https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/forum/marks-grand-telvannis-redo-proposal

FlocksOfMice
Feb 3, 2009

mbt posted:

yeah nbd, if you made a quest showcase i could get you in pretty easily. you know how the cs works and speak english as a first language which clears both initial hurdles.

here's the actual telvanni writeup we're going with. I think it does a good job of justifying the vanilla divergences. I was just going off memory for the last few posts, so excuse me if I completely forgot what the plan actually was lol
https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/forum/marks-grand-telvannis-redo-proposal

Oh yeah okay I have not seen this treatment yet, this sounds like a brilliant idea for it absolutely. If y'all also manage to pull off Telvanni wizards in their weirdass bug suits that'd be the hypest poo poo.

And yeah when life settles down I will probably end up applying to TR somepoint! I have spent like 20 years playing with the CS for fun in my spare time I should actually like actually do more publicly than like the 2 mods I've ever released lol.

FlocksOfMice fucked around with this message at 01:48 on May 12, 2023

Stuporstar
May 5, 2008

Where do fists come from?

mbt posted:

yeah nbd, if you made a quest showcase i could get you in pretty easily. you know how the cs works and speak english as a first language which clears both initial hurdles.

here's the actual telvanni writeup we're going with. I think it does a good job of justifying the vanilla divergences. I was just going off memory for the last few posts, so excuse me if I completely forgot what the plan actually was lol
https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/forum/marks-grand-telvannis-redo-proposal

By the time all this happens, RoHT is just gonna feel obsolete. I dunno if it’d be worth updating rather than just dropping it or making something new. As for Tel Uvirith, in the next version I plan to replace the dungeon’s deep tunnels with a hotspring, so it’ll end up a kinda resort town, which fits well with the summer/winter palace idea in the comments there

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

Stuporstar posted:

By the time all this happens, RoHT is just gonna feel obsolete.

I don't think it will. The thing I like most about RoHT is setting House policy and working to get it implemented. A bunch of new quests as the shitkicker for two dozen new mage-lords won't really replace that. A couple of lines from each council's magister reacting to your council's actions would be enough to ground it I'd reckon.

WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 19:54 on May 12, 2023

FlocksOfMice
Feb 3, 2009
I checked Nexus today and look what seems to have finally dropped!

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52872

It's fishing time baybey!

RubricMarine
Feb 14, 2012

mbt posted:

You should join the Discord and become a developer lol

I have suggested this to her multiple times while talking about Morrowind around the house lol

looking forward to the day it actually happens because I'm sure TR will take off like a spinning top after that

Stuporstar
May 5, 2008

Where do fists come from?
So looks like my brain has veered off into making a small mod—a travel expansion for Vvardenfell that’s faction based, minimalist, and lore-friendly. By giving these new travel NPCs factions and quest requirements for many, it’ll limit who you can get a ride from so the player is forced to explore the area before they can take fast travel and skip the walk. It’ll hopefully make some fetch quests less tedious, especially the Redoran back and forth and back and forth bullshit.

So far I’ve planned:

- An Ashlander caravan that requires friendly disposition with the tribe and quests to access, like clearing out caves of hostiles on the route or curing blighted kwama queens so the Ashlanders in the area have eggs to trade. As well as a guide to Ghostgate if you do the Cure the Outcast Ashlander quest for the Temple. The Eastern Ashlanders are all connected, but the Urshilaku are kinda on their own unless I give them and Ahemmusa a boat between them. I’m trying to keep this mod minimalist and lore friendly, so I’m not sure about the boat.

- An Imperial guar-cart shipping route spanning from Ebonheart to Gnisis, with stops at Seyda Neen, Pelagiad, Forth Moonmoth, Caldera, Fort Buckmoth, and fort Darius. Requires a friendly disposition, which is easier if you’re Imperial Legion/Cult. I might require clearing bandits in the area, forcing the player to explore before they can access this fast travel as well.

- Added boat/ship routes to places lacking them, including a fishing boat from Sadrith Mora to Tel Aruhn, Tel Fyr, and drop you on the shore near Uvirith’s Grave. Also a boat to Ald Velothi and one from Seyda Neen to Ebonheart and Hla Oad.

- Stronghold travel services, like an armed guard from Indarys Manor, a shipping cart from Rethan Manor, and a small Ashlander caravan that stops outside Tel Uvirith (as well as a boat on the shore) which you have to clear all the nearby bandit caves for. The Redoran and Hlaalu could also build strider ports at their strongholds to increase their range, but I’m not sure if other mods already add that. As for Telvanni, I’ll leave to Uvirith’s Legacy or that Telvanni Travel Network mod that’s already out their for non-UL players.

Cerebulon
Mar 29, 2010

Destroyer of Worlds*
(*No worlds were harmed in the making of this title.)

Finished my modathon contribution for this year yesterday:



MWSE - Revered Dead - Consequences for Graverobbing
This MWSE mod is intended to improve immersion by adding a variety of complex interactions surrounding the shameless plundering of sacred burial places.
Honest merchants may refuse to trade in grave goods, openly wearing graverobbed items may draw ire, and trading in actual mortal remains is likely to really piss people off. But it's all dependent on who you're talking to, what they think of you, and exactly what is it you're trying to sell.

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52886

Basically adds a bunch of conditional dialogue and service refusal, crime reporting and potential violence to what is supposed to be a pretty hosed up thing in-world but has absolutely no reprecussions in vanilla.
Planning on adding even more conditionals and configurable options before the end of the month, I was just keen on getting it out on the 15th. For the silly achievement. Main requested one is the option to exclude artifacts like the Mentor's Ring from the "people recognise that you're wearing stolen grave goods around town and think you're being a total dick" checks. So, that soon too.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010


The Great Twist
That seems cool as hell.

Vichan
Oct 1, 2014

I'LL PUNISH YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR CRIME

Orcs and Ostriches posted:

That seems cool as hell.

mbt
Aug 13, 2012

Cerebulon posted:

Finished my modathon contribution for this year yesterday:



MWSE - Revered Dead - Consequences for Graverobbing
This MWSE mod is intended to improve immersion by adding a variety of complex interactions surrounding the shameless plundering of sacred burial places.
Honest merchants may refuse to trade in grave goods, openly wearing graverobbed items may draw ire, and trading in actual mortal remains is likely to really piss people off. But it's all dependent on who you're talking to, what they think of you, and exactly what is it you're trying to sell.

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52886

Basically adds a bunch of conditional dialogue and service refusal, crime reporting and potential violence to what is supposed to be a pretty hosed up thing in-world but has absolutely no reprecussions in vanilla.
Planning on adding even more conditionals and configurable options before the end of the month, I was just keen on getting it out on the 15th. For the silly achievement. Main requested one is the option to exclude artifacts like the Mentor's Ring from the "people recognise that you're wearing stolen grave goods around town and think you're being a total dick" checks. So, that soon too.

this rules, good job

Proletarian Mango
May 21, 2011

mbt posted:

this rules, good job

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Necronormiecon
Mar 12, 2019

Farewell, sweet Nerevar. Better luck on your next incarnation.

mbt posted:

this rules, good job

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