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as we get more serious about climate change and if we get walkable/ridable cities, it is the cars that will be removed off the road to make way for more trucks and busses. Like Singapore which has much higher density heavy vehicles than any city in Australia (and no freight rail at all!)
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May 15, 2023 15:04
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Electric Wrigglies posted:as we get more serious about climate change and if we get walkable/ridable cities, it is the cars that will be removed off the road to make way for more trucks and busses. Like Singapore which has much higher density heavy vehicles than any city in Australia (and no freight rail at all!) Tokyo is similar - most of the road traffic is vans owned by small businesses or taxis
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May 15, 2023 22:09
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Wipe leppington off the map
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May 16, 2023 00:13
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Put Leppington on the map -- with a monorail, by gum -- it worked for Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook
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May 16, 2023 00:17
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Webster's dictionary defines leppington as "a square of sponge cake dipped in melted chocolate and grated coconut." In conclusion, leppington is a land of contrasts.
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May 16, 2023 05:34
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Expand the SES, and include it as a "subject" in years 11/12, but don't mess with the volunteer model. Yes, I agree, socially necessary labor should only ever be stolen from people.
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May 17, 2023 05:30
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It's actually quite a nuanced point and the volunteer model has a lot of benefits and seems to work quite well for all parties at the moment, especially in the circumstances where you need a large number of people, but only briefly and on sporadic occasions. A team of people who are there for the love of the community is different from people that are there to cash a cheque. Also it's not stealing if they give it to you dummy.
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May 17, 2023 06:16
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Bucky Fullminster posted:It's actually quite a nuanced point and the volunteer model has a lot of benefits and seems to work quite well for all parties at the moment, especially in the circumstances where you need a large number of people, but only briefly and on sporadic occasions. Wrong. Compensate people for socially necessary labour, or legislate that any volunteer work with the SES is at full pay at whatever other job you have. By your logic unpaid internships aren't stealing labour either.
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May 17, 2023 06:20
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At the bare minimum a retainer fee and hourly rates for active service would be fair, IMO
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May 17, 2023 06:23
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hooman posted:Wrong. mate if you're going to start talking policy I'm afraid we're gonna need to see some qualifications, because the people who set it up like this are unimpeachably wise and you have no right to question them. Volunteering for the SES isn't like an unpaid internship, because people are not doing it to create surplus value for private shareholders in a for-profit business, they are doing it for the community, which is a thing that some hoomans do occasionally, and it's actually good to move beyond a transactional financed framework where possible from time to time. Helping people for the sake of it is something we should be more familiar with, not less.
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May 17, 2023 06:35
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People should be compensated for their labour Bucky. I’d also say that exposing literal children to potentially hazardous situations in the SES is probably one of the more unhinged suggestions I’ve ever heard, and I hear some pretty unhinged ideas get spitballed.
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May 17, 2023 06:43
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Bucky Fullminster posted:mate if you're going to start talking policy I'm afraid we're gonna need to see some qualifications, because the people who set it up like this are unimpeachably wise and you have no right to question them. I'm not shocked you are still mad about being owned about trains. There is a difference between an ideological position of "people should not perform necessary labour uncompensated" and a practical position of "put a train exactly here". However, stopping businesses and properties burning down actually does create value for shareholders when assets are not destroyed and insurance companies don't have to pay out. When roads aren't melted and transportation stopped a lot of value is prevented from being lost. There is no legislation that protects those that do that community service from not suffering personal financial penalties from the businesses that employ them for being civically minded. That is bullshit. Pay people for work, take the L here Bucky.
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May 17, 2023 06:45
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Yeah nah bucky you're wrong on this one I read your posts otherwise, don't be a dickhead liberal wrt capitalism.
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May 17, 2023 07:02
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This is not about ideology, this is a very practical question of "how can we most effectively deal with the large numbers of jobs that swell up in times of emergency". The current model works pretty well and all parties seem happy with it. I am yet to see any details of how you would propose to replace it with a paid model. I'm not being a dickhead liberal, I'm being a communist. You guys are the ones trying to be capitalist by making it all about a financial incentive and saying "people shouldn't lift a finger to help their community unless they get paid". If it makes you feel any better, we do often walk away from jobs saying "gently caress it, too hard, let the insurance company's professionals sort it out". It's just that at the scale that these events happen, saying that to all of them would leave a lot of people with holes in their roofs for too long. That's it. You can say "screw them, let the free market sort it out", I don't think that delivers the best result for society. hooman posted:There is no legislation that protects those that do that community service from not suffering personal financial penalties from the businesses that employ them for being civically minded. That is bullshit. that part we can fix, sure. Also I did not get "owned" on the trains thing, I literally answered every single question, and literally no one was able to answer the one question of "where the gently caress is the government's proposed freight line going to go".
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May 17, 2023 07:21
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hooman posted:Wrong. I take it you are fully on board with the value delivered being recovered by those that needed the help? Besides, most of what SES does is not socially necessary, people will muddle through their own roof being blown away, insurance covers flood damage, etc. Additionally, we could use soldiers against their will (like what happened with Covid) but it is very inelegant, not what their training is for and not at all a great result. Volunteer labor has its pros and cons but saying that all work must be paid for every time is dogma. Do you pay your partner for household chores or refuse to attend Scouts, Guides or fundraisers?
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May 17, 2023 08:26
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Scouts, guides and fundraisers very much present their own problems!
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May 17, 2023 08:53
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Recoome posted:exposing literal children to potentially hazardous situations in the SES is probably one of the more unhinged suggestions I’ve ever heard, and I hear some pretty unhinged ideas get spitballed. when I said "make it a subject", I meant give them the skills and training, not send them out on active jobs per se. Ropes, knots, radio comms, maybe a bit of light chainsaw juggling. All good general skills. The point is that it would be better than waiting and doing these long drawn-out training sessions one weeknight at at time, which is what 90% of being in the SES is. Also don't underestimate literal children.
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May 17, 2023 08:54
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Bucky Fullminster posted:I'm not being a dickhead liberal, I'm being a communist. You guys are the ones trying to be capitalist by making it all about a financial incentive and saying "people shouldn't lift a finger to help their community unless they get paid". wow you're actually an idiot
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May 17, 2023 09:12
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Bucky Fullminster posted:that part we can fix, sure. You realise this suggestion is literally ensuring people get paid for the labour they do right?! Right??! Electric Wrigglies posted:Volunteer labor has its pros and cons but saying that all work must be paid for every time is dogma. Do you pay your partner for household chores or refuse to attend Scouts, Guides or fundraisers? Yes. Should people who run guides and scouts also get paid? Yes. Whether in payment in kind or in other ways. If people are dedicating their time to serve our collective best interest, our collective society should be compensating that. Why do you think carers payments exist? Or support for parents?
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May 17, 2023 09:14
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hooman posted:You realise this suggestion is literally ensuring people get paid for the labour they do right?! No No, you're not a communist. Communists believe people should work for free under capitalism, because I don't understand what communism, socialism or marxism is but I'm a communist
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May 17, 2023 09:14
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from each according to their labor, to each nothing because that's communism
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May 17, 2023 09:16
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Bucky Fullminster posted:when I said "make it a subject", I meant give them the skills and training, not send them out on active jobs per se. Ropes, knots, radio comms, maybe a bit of light chainsaw juggling. All good general skills. The point is that it would be better than waiting and doing these long drawn-out training sessions one weeknight at at time, which is what 90% of being in the SES is. Have you actually considered that 1. Subjects that serve these skills already exist and 2. Children have their own opinions on what they want to do and what skills they want to learn and that should be respected?
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May 17, 2023 09:18
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hooman posted:
I thought you meant like making sure they don't get fired for missing a shift cos they went to volunteer or something. If you want to make a law that says they're still on their company's clock when they go out to help, sure, that could be worth exploring I guess. But that's pretty complicated politically, and it's mostly retirees anyway. Look, if you guys have a model you want to propose, go for it, let's see your slide deck, and we can debate which model delivers a better result for the community. Until then, it ain't that broke, and you're not even fixing anything. Like, how many of you are even in the SES. hooman posted:Have you actually considered that 1. Subjects that serve these skills already exist and 2. Children have their own opinions on what they want to do and what skills they want to learn and that should be respected? I meant offering them as an elective to help 23 Skidoo's vision of a Civil Corps, but cool, what subjects are they? Ranter posted:wow you're actually an idiot I don't think that's very kind or accurate
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May 17, 2023 09:32
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Bucky Fullminster posted:when I said "make it a subject", I meant give them the skills and training, not send them out on active jobs per se. Ropes, knots, radio comms, maybe a bit of light chainsaw juggling. All good general skills. The point is that it would be better than waiting and doing these long drawn-out training sessions one weeknight at at time, which is what 90% of being in the SES is. I've taught children (and adults) ropes & knots, and without constant supervision, they would straight up kill each other and themselves.
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May 17, 2023 10:09
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hooman posted:You realise this suggestion is literally ensuring people get paid for the labour they do right?! ding ding ding, that's the correct answer. We are just talking past each other at this point. You agree that there doesn't need to be an employment contract at award rates and conditions, sick, stress and domestic violence leave provisions and all that with cost recovery in place for someone willing to put up their hand to help out others and neither do I. We expect volunteers to be provided a safe place to assist, be legally protected and to not be put under undue pressure to provide beyond their free and informed consent and to not unreasonably have withheld the expected benefits of their volunteer service (you touch the kids, you are no longer allowed to interact with kids). I am sympathetic to the issues around the volunteer model - for instance one of the benefits of lots of volunteer work is that it can become a necessary part of your CV for future leadership roles and therefore precludes people that don't have the time to volunteer. My own CV is basically my last three jobs and a list of volunteer work I did as a kid/student/single worker and I'm sure it has helped me more than if I had laboriously listed out every achievement/responsibility in a job from 15 years ago.
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May 17, 2023 10:29
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Ranter posted:wow you're actually an idiot please somebody probe bucky or something he may even learn a lesson (he won't)
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May 17, 2023 10:39
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Until then, it ain't that broke, and you're not even fixing anything. Ranter posted:wow you're actually an idiot
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May 17, 2023 10:49
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Me, writing a 52 minute medium post about the rise of fascism in the 21st century Also me, who didn't bother to understand the actual root cause nor how it could be addressed and instead doubling down on liberalism
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May 17, 2023 10:50
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It's 100 minutes, and it specifically identifies capitalism and capitalists as the root cause.
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May 17, 2023 10:52
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GoldStandardConure posted:I've taught children (and adults) ropes & knots, and without constant supervision, they would straight up kill each other and themselves. wow what a groomer, teaching kids shibari
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May 17, 2023 11:02
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Bucky Fullminster posted:It's 100 minutes, and it specifically identifies capitalism and capitalists as the root cause. that's longer than the communist manifesto
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May 17, 2023 11:30
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Tokamak posted:that's longer than the communist manifesto It's got more pictures and hyperlinks too. And it tells you who actually started Qanon. Which many people have spent much longer trying and failing to do.
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May 17, 2023 11:36
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Bucky Fullminster posted:It's got more pictures and hyperlinks too. this sounds really interesting and useful, do you have any more info
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May 17, 2023 11:40
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I am hesitant to ask, what the gently caress is a Qanan anyway? this chat about communist success and such, it makes me think it is a Qantas loyalty card? Which would explain why it is so irrelevant that I never hear of it except when Bucky is in a convo. Do you fly a lot Bucky? You should drop in on me and we can go look at the Abidjan train network together.
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May 17, 2023 11:41
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I would much rather have dedicated, trained and well compensated professionals working in emergency services than a bunch of volunteers than a bunch of amateurs. Volunteer fire fighting makes its own sort of sense for very remote areas, but it is at best a necessary evil.
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May 17, 2023 11:55
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Electric Wrigglies posted:ding ding ding, that's the correct answer. We are just talking past each other at this point. You agree that there doesn't need to be an employment contract at award rates and conditions, sick, stress and domestic violence leave provisions and all that with cost recovery in place for someone willing to put up their hand to help out others and neither do I. We expect volunteers to be provided a safe place to assist, be legally protected and to not be put under undue pressure to provide beyond their free and informed consent and to not unreasonably have withheld the expected benefits of their volunteer service (you touch the kids, you are no longer allowed to interact with kids). The reason I think this is important is that a friend of mine used to take unpaid leave to do SES work. He ended up stopping when a later job said nah we're not giving you time off. That's poo poo for him and for the people he spent a lot of time helping. I think that kind of stuff should be legislated as paid leave. Enabling people to volunteer, rather than punishing those who do. My belief is that there should be government/community funding in place to support these kind of things, there are a bunch of makework and bullshit jobs that don't really need doing and a bunch of things that actually improve people's lives and we, as a society, should be putting money into doing those things. It doesn't need to be an employment contract but if people are spending their time improving their community, coaching youth sports, community gardens, pensioner outreach, teaching knots, my belief is that those people should be paid. All the money will go straight back into the economy anyway. Especially when your volunteers are pensioners. I'm woozy as gently caress so sorry if this makes no sense. Bucky Fullminster posted:Look, if you guys have a model you want to propose, go for it, let's see your slide deck, and we can debate which model delivers a better result for the community. No. I'm not making a slide deck. I'm not a specialist in this area. I'm stating a belief about how we should value service in the community. What is wrong with you?
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May 17, 2023 12:18
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SES: exists happily and successfully for many years, willingly helping little old ladies fix their roofs, based on the principles of mutual aid and goodwill, on nights when the state has been slammed by a disaster and the professional sector is overwhelmed by the sheer volume and is physically unable to deliver the help they need. AusPol goons: No! gently caress you! Make it about the profit motive! Like we have this one nice thing in an otherwise capitalist hellscape, which people do for the community, outside of the transactional system, and you guys are trying really hard to take that away. People do it because they want to do it. It is weird and creepy of you to deny them that agency, especially when ultimately it means a little old lady will have to wait longer to get her roof fixed. A wise man once said that people "have their own opinions on what they want to do, and what skills they want to learn, and that should be respected". For a bunch of people who were so willing to fellate the institutional wisdom of the government's rail system, you sure seem awfully eager to overturn this system that's functioning better than most parts of our failing society. hooman posted:The reason I think this is important is that a friend of mine used to take unpaid leave to do SES work. He ended up stopping when a later job said nah we're not giving you time off. That's poo poo for him and for the people he spent a lot of time helping. I think that kind of stuff should be legislated as paid leave. Enabling people to volunteer, rather than punishing those who do. Like I said, if you want to pitch legislation that would mean you friend can keep helping, cool, I could see that. But it's still working without him and I don't think it's worth fundamentally overhauling the system over. Nothing is wrong with me (in this convo at least), you are making a suggestion which would severely disrupt a service that provides a benefit to our community, and I think you should provide some more details about exactly what that would look like. If you've got no actual model, then we don't really have much to discuss. Thanks for stating your belief. In this particular case, I believe it's misguided, and would deliver a worse result for society in time of disaster.
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May 17, 2023 12:54
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Bucky Fullminster posted:It's got more pictures and hyperlinks too. Why do you think that matters or is useful information in any way Bucky Fullminster posted:SES: exists happily and successfully for many years, willingly helping little old ladies fix their roofs, based on the principles of mutual aid and goodwill, on nights when the state has been slammed by a disaster and the professional sector is overwhelmed by the sheer volume and is physically unable to deliver the help they need. Literally no one is saying this and you should know it
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May 17, 2023 13:11
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Why do you think that matters or is useful information in any way historical interest, and accurately understanding the nature of the radicalisation machine that is threatening the fabric our socio-political institutions Ghost Leviathan posted:Literally no one is saying this and you should know it people are very explicitly saying that we should drop the volunteer model and move towards one that is based on financial payment. Is that not profit motive? Fine, retracted, put whatever you want in there.
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May 17, 2023 13:19
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Vote Bucky for Prefect
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May 17, 2023 13:25
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