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Impermanent posted:I can kind of see the lore of evil high cultures but what's a good aligned dark culture Mall Goths. Not actually bad people, they just want to be edgy.
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May 16, 2023 01:49
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 14:05 |
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May 16, 2023 03:03
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You're looking at the damage numbers, I'm looking at the words 'Mirror Veil'.
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May 16, 2023 03:27
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I think if you put an army on an underground entrance, the AI can't figure out how to use it or attack through it. I've been keeping my basement rats bottled up for a hundred turns or so just by having an army parked on the exit, and they're too dumb to go around, just been sat there in their one city absolutely fuming all game while at war with me.
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May 16, 2023 03:32
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OwlFancier posted:I think if you put an army on an underground entrance, the AI can't figure out how to use it or attack through it. I've been keeping my basement rats bottled up for a hundred turns or so just by having an army parked on the exit, and they're too dumb to go around, just been sat there in their one city absolutely fuming all game while at war with me. I do that too, but they've attacked me a few times.
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May 16, 2023 04:41
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IIRC battles between underground passages only consists of one army vs. one army, so if you have a sufficiently high power doomstack camping an entrance, an AI trying to fight through it might never get an attacking stack strong enough for the AI to pull the trigger.
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May 16, 2023 05:03
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It was only a couple of t3s and a t2 and 2 t1s, shouldn't have posed much of a threat.
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May 16, 2023 05:48
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toasterwarrior posted:IIRC battles between underground passages only consists of one army vs. one army, so if you have a sufficiently high power doomstack camping an entrance, an AI trying to fight through it might never get an attacking stack strong enough for the AI to pull the trigger. in previous games (this logic also applied to teleporters) it would be your [however many stacks are there] vs their singular stack trying to come through the cave entrance/teleporter. has this changed?
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May 16, 2023 05:50
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I parked my scout on an underground entrance and it got attacked by 3 mole stacks.
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May 16, 2023 05:53
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OwlFancier posted:I wish that the sustained terraforming spells like enchanted bloom, wouldn't destroy forests. I want a mostly forested environment because I get bonuses moving and fighting in it. It should replace other clear terrain with grassland but I think for forests it should just replace one tile. Same should probably be the case for marching winter. We have single tile spells if we want to completely wipe a province (another alternative would be letting me target those on provinces that already have those features so I can increase forestation on provinces) Yeah I agree with this. The effect doesn't actually remove the forest trait from the province, but it does remove the forest hexes, which is a bit annoying. It seems like a bug to me. I'd rather have it remove the forest trait so I could then replace the forest with the Create Forest spell. Also I agree with other posters that it's silly that you can create passable mountains on accident using the Bloom and March of Winter city spells, especially since you can't do so with the direct target versions of them. Regarding the armor discussion earlier, armor piercing would probably be a great niche for guns when those show up. Slightly lower base damage but bypasses half armor. You could also do an enchant that does something similar, or possibly bypassing some amount of armor on crit to synergize with crit builds. As far as melee goes, I could see providing some armor pierce to maces and hammers. Lower base damage, but a "crushing" keyword that ignores the first 2 or 4 armor similar to resistance bypassing with some magic attackers.
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May 16, 2023 07:09
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Isn't the counter to high defense already just magic damage?
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May 16, 2023 07:13
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Isn't the counter to high defense already just magic damage? Lol I was thinking about that yeah. The downside to a "lower damage but AP" enchant is that already kind of exists with the elemental damage enchantments. I do think some limited armor bypass for physical attacks could fit into the game because there's limited resistance bypass for some magic attacks, but I wouldn't go overboard with it.
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May 16, 2023 07:19
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Technically there already is a 'lower damage but AP' enchant - Sundering Blades adds no damage but does add Sunder Defense. My main issue with how bufffff units can get is that they can make the mythics look a bit sad. The dragons and giants and so on have a tough time competing. Like sure a bone dragon is still probably better to have than a t2 pikeman, but not by a lot. And you can get as many t2 pikeman as you want for 100 gold each while the bone dragon is like 400 from rallies only with Imperium upkeep, and tends to die a lot in autobattle. A heavily enchanted Tier 3 is probably gonna get your more mileage than any Rally tier 4. If Mythics are gonna be largely outside the racial/unit enchant system they might need buffs to keep up. A few units having 'vorpal' damage would be cool. Maybe the Reaper - it needs a buff anyway, and it would fit that armor can't save you from Death. Been thinking about sieges lately. I think the basic mechanics are sound but some of the specifics seem kinda boned. Some of this is hard to get perspective on because of the AI's strategic shyness; I really only have knowledge of sieges as the attacker. -Spell Jammers. Tactically speaking, these are better than all the defensive structures you can get put together. All my toughest siege battles have been trying to attack without spells because I forgot about the Jammer. They are pretty gamey; I didn't know they existed at first and by the time you're in the battle itself it is too late. I guarantee a lot of players are discovering this face-first. And its also pretty gamey how they're used; a smart player is gonna game the Jammers location to be extremely annoying for the attacker. Either extremely far away (perhaps next to another city or an outposts), or just close enough that they can dash out and smash whoever is pillaging the jammer then dash back in. I think these should have their effects in tactical battles stripped and relegated to a strategic role only (it's still very useful to not have the enemy casting Gremlin Ambushers on all your cities.) I realize that there's probably some intended gameplay with pulling attack stacks away from the siege but again it feels *very* gamey. It would also open up having Spell Jammer towers as a building, acting in a similar way to Mage Banes and blocking the attacker's spellcasting until they are destroyed. That would actually be tactically engaging rather than gamey and frustrating. -Battlements. Without the battlement structure the defender has literally no ranged advantage over the attacker. This feels wrong imo. If I see the other player using any amount of ranged units at all its just the smart play to remove this from combat. It also means I don't actually care about getting more breaches etc.; if anything, fewer breaches works in the attackers favor if they have the ranged advantage. Even with intact battlements, there's a number of means of just bypassing the advantage - battlemage Evocations or the Guided Projectiles from Tome of Scrying - which themselves are somewhat deprecated in value because they aren't needed. -Attackers Advantage: The above is part and parcel of the advantage in a siege battle generally lying with the attacker. In a fully developed siege with say 3 siege projects, the defender will generally be taking a 20% hp haircut and losing their actually effective defenses while the attacker fields useful stuff like Bolt Repeaters or Unleash the Hounds. Where the defender can get an advantage is generally only gonna be in defensive city enchantments like Consecrated Domain or Fortress of Vines. But these apply to all combats in the domain not just to sieges. Thus the defender has no actual incentive to ever fight a defensive siege battle - they are literally always better off sallying out. -Strategic Damage Spells: This is the part where I have to theorycraft because I've only ever been the attacker. There doesn't seem to be any reason a defender can't just cast strategic damage spells until the attackers strongest stacks are all fried. So far as I can tell, the attacker can only contest this with Army Heal. 'Defensive' siege projects - anti-spell domes, building a siege camp underground, etc. - seem like they'd be useful for the attacker. -Outposts: 2 hero turns to siege down and 2 more turns to raze but any random rear end in a top hat can zoom by on their wyvern and slam down a palisaded outpost for 25 gold in 1 turn. ????? -Fortification curve. It feels like 90% of your battles are gonna be against wooden palisades. Developing a city to Tier 3 is expensive and time consuming because you need income structures more than you need tier 3. Good luck ever actually getting ballista towers outside your capital - if you can afford it, it's probably because you're winning the game already and don't need them. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 09:32 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 09:25
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:
Yes, that's what a siege is. You successfully sally, you wait long enough for outside help (literal help, or disease or something else) to get rid of the sieging army, or you eventually die. It's, overall, not a good time for the defender.
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May 16, 2023 09:40
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You eventually die cuz you're outnumbered 5:1 and you ran of out food, not because the besieger literally has the advantage in combat. Also in real life you can't simply walk out of hte siege at any time you want. In any case, this is a game, not the thirty years war.
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May 16, 2023 09:46
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Outposts probably should be easier to raze, and yeah, Spelljammers are way too strong. A Wizard King instantly gets shut the gently caress down by one, and any competent player in a competitive setting is probably good enough at protecting it through either positioning or just having a stack sit on it. I feel like maybe they should double or whatever casting costs for combat spells at least, even if they keep the stopping overworld spells thing.
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May 16, 2023 10:36
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Captain Oblivious posted:It's probably not intentional that the auto arctic terraformer just explodes mountain ranges left and right.
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May 16, 2023 10:44
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Impermanent posted:I can kind of see the lore of evil high cultures but what's a good aligned dark culture Splicer posted:proletariat necromancer ratman for fully automated luxury gay skeleton communism. Splicer fucked around with this message at 15:07 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 10:47
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A friend noticed that the angelic transformation gives immunity to berserk, while the nature spell that restores AP to the whole army debuffs you with berserk. He can't be assed to play a full game to test it out yet, so I guess I'm asking on his behalf here: Does this basically turn the spell into "Here's all your AP back, no downsides"?
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May 16, 2023 10:57
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my dad posted:A friend noticed that the angelic transformation gives immunity to berserk, while the nature spell that restores AP to the whole army debuffs you with berserk. He can't be assed to play a full game to test it out yet, so I guess I'm asking on his behalf here: Yes. Order Nature can just go twice every turn. It makes Barbarian Order/Nature with a heavy shock unit focus very funny.
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May 16, 2023 10:58
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OwlFancier posted:Argh, I also wish the sustained terraforming spell wouldn't delete the loving mountains that are forming important defences for my cities... What spell is this? I just tried with Marching Winter and it doesn't destroy mountains... Edit: Nevermind, I went back to a version before we started patching and now I see it! Edit2: And I checked the logs, looks like we fixed it for the next patch already! Gerblyn fucked around with this message at 12:09 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 12:02
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Isn't the counter to high defense already just magic damage? Unless someone's stacking both defense *and* resistance.
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May 16, 2023 13:36
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For Industrious in particular it's extremely easy to stack both with a simple dip into Warding at tier 1.
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May 16, 2023 13:38
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Kanos posted:For Industrious in particular it's extremely easy to stack both with a simple dip into Warding at tier 1. big industrious pro tip right here. puts steelshapers on steroids in particular.
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May 16, 2023 13:49
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Impermanent posted:I can kind of see the lore of evil high cultures but what's a good aligned dark culture Any non-conformists to the culture or alignment charts I figure are the freethinkers and rogues of their group. As Dark has alot of research and vision stuff, I figure good aligned dark cultures are meaningful spymasters, law-breaking researchers and information brokers / mercenaries for the highest bidder. Or to draw upon nerd poo poo; I could see a character like Grand Admiral Thrawn* be cast as a "Good aligned, dark culture spymaster and warlord". I'm also going to say good cops in a crap country because this is a fantasy and we can have those. *Don't loving @me if the new canon has Thrawn be a right up dickhead.
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May 16, 2023 13:51
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The old Zahn Thrawn was a straight up dickhead.
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May 16, 2023 14:06
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Impermanent posted:I can kind of see the lore of evil high cultures but what's a good aligned dark culture e: Dark is the existing culture, not necessarily the ideals of the new leader. If you're a sorcerer king running a Dark culture but choose the good option in all situations and deal fairly and generously with your neighbours and allies then it can be assumed that you stumbled onto an existing culture of assholes, killed the leader, and are currently working on turning them to a force of good. Similarly a champion of the people doing the same can be assumed to be a reformer working to change things from the top while hampered by the existing entrenched infrastructure. It would be neat if being irritatingly good in a dark empire led to events where the old guard try to take you down. Splicer fucked around with this message at 14:30 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 14:13
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Kanos posted:The old Zahn Thrawn was a straight up dickhead. Fair, I'm probably casting him in a nicer light owing to the bundle of issues no sane therapist would take Vader and the literally-a-saturday-morning-cartoon-show evil Palps. That and its been a decade at least since I last read anything Star Wars.
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May 16, 2023 14:15
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Finished my second run with dwarf druids and a nature magic victory - not sure if next up I wanna go for eldritch cult toadlings, return to my High Orcs, or just make some classic Skaven
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May 16, 2023 14:16
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Thyrork posted:Fair, I'm probably casting him in a nicer light owing to the bundle of issues no sane therapist would take Vader and the literally-a-saturday-morning-cartoon-show evil Palps. Zahn Thrawn gets killed because he enslaved the Noghri by secretly contaminating their home planet with space kudzu and then showed up and said "i'll give you droids that will fix this if you serve me as my loyal soldiers" and then gave them rigged droids that didn't work to ensure they'd be in his pocket forever, and then the Noghri found out and murdered him in the end. He might not blow up planets or choke people to death with space magic but he's a huge monster! He'd actually be a pretty good Order/Dark theme leader in this game, though. rear end in a top hat backstab diplomacy.
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May 16, 2023 14:20
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:You eventually die cuz you're outnumbered 5:1 and you ran of out food, not because the besieger literally has the advantage in combat. Also in real life you can't simply walk out of hte siege at any time you want. Fair enough, but you model how you can to keep gameplay. At any rate, the gameplay explanation is it already forces you to take several turns to force a siege battle, giving up all that time and still not going first when you do in every other case would be infuriating. The idiots inside the walls should be tired and hungry. Do they even lose out on production? I've definitely seen units spawn in a besieged city, but maybe they just teleported or were summoned. At any rate, being besieged in this game basically ensures you take a fight on whatever terms are most acceptable. The defender already has an advantage. Why should they get to go first, too?
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May 16, 2023 14:24
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Kanos posted:Zahn Thrawn gets killed because he enslaved the Noghri by secretly contaminating their home planet with space kudzu and then showed up and said "i'll give you droids that will fix this if you serve me as my loyal soldiers" and then gave them rigged droids that didn't work to ensure they'd be in his pocket forever, and then the Noghri found out and murdered him in the end. He might not blow up planets or choke people to death with space magic but he's a huge monster! Oh right he did do that. Also "Space Kudzu" is giving me a horrible image of some kind of planty version of a Brethren Moon spreading its tendrils across an entire star system.  quote:He'd actually be a pretty good Order/Dark theme leader in this game, though. rear end in a top hat backstab diplomacy. He sure would be that too! Also I've done that and its oddly satisfying. Rally the Lieges becomes a thing of terror with it. Although you do want to devalue minor and major transforms as a result. Won't really get the returns you normally get.
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May 16, 2023 14:34
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You can recruit units but you can't make city structures, while under siege.
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May 16, 2023 14:35
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Thyrork posted:Any non-conformists to the culture or alignment charts I figure are the freethinkers and rogues of their group. As Dark has alot of research and vision stuff, I figure good aligned dark cultures are meaningful spymasters, law-breaking researchers and information brokers / mercenaries for the highest bidder. Also isn't one guy telling everyone what to do literally just every player empire anyway?
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May 16, 2023 14:43
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orangelex44 posted:Unless someone's stacking both defense *and* resistance. Is there a specific set-up here that's broken or are we just worried that industrious culture is tanky and good? Not saying you guys are wrong or anything, just curious.
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May 16, 2023 14:47
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The culture you pick doesn't mean you need to pick their tomes at all. I dunno why it's assumed I would take Undead just because I took a dark culture. Plus, half of dark is frost. Your alignment doesn't reflect your people, it reflects you. So a good aligned dark culture is one where one decent guy leads a collection of dickheads.
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May 16, 2023 14:50
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If you're sieging a city that means you have control of the field. Just put a tier 1 unit on top of the jammer and voila, it stops working. You don't even have to raze it.
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May 16, 2023 14:55
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Splicer posted:A Dark society is a "dictatorial empire where the strong and ruthless dominate the weak". While dictatorships obviously tend toward evil (hence the starting +2), what if the powerful have decide that what they want is for everyone to have three square meals a day, a roof over their heads, and easy access to public education, transport, and healthcare? "They're good because they deal with people in a firm but well meaning way. I pay my taxes and the town guard actually does her job instead of the last guy who was robbing me on the side. It's not freedom, but at least the nearby dragon's lair is gone and the city next door has agreed to coexistence." In all seriousness, I've said on discord that I love the ambiguity of a lot of the tomes and cultures. There is some trending evil and trending good, but both can, and historically to the setting, have gone too far. But both have also been used in careful measured doses. Splicer posted:Also isn't one guy telling everyone what to do literally just every player empire anyway? Don't break the fourth wall, you clever child you.
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May 16, 2023 14:57
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Is there a specific set-up here that's broken or are we just worried that industrious culture is tanky and good? Not saying you guys are wrong or anything, just curious. i'm not sure anyone's saying that it's broken exactly, but some of the effects of stacking defense (especially at high defense values) can be unintuitive. in pf stacking defense was pretty OP in some cases (loving engulfers were the bane of balance for so long until triumph finally just took them out back and put them down harsh) but i have yet to run into it as A Problem You Can't Deal With in 4. i'm pretty out of touch with the developing mp scene atm though, i'll see if i can skim their discord for discussion on the topic or ask them about it and see what they think.
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May 16, 2023 15:10
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 14:05 |
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For what it's worth the big post I made about defense was meant to say that defense stacking is a good viable strategy, I called it "the most overpowered custom faction I've found" when I should have said "the most powerful" I guess because I don't think it's "overpowered" in the sense of breaking the game, just in the sense of it's really strong. e: Everything is overpowered in this game and it owns
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May 16, 2023 15:19
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