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Jagganoth just wants to end the stasis he believes Zoss and Metatron are inflicting on existence. It’s not suffering inherent to life he wants to end, but artificial and infinite suffering (that most cannot even perceive)
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May 15, 2023 20:03
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Victis posted:Jagganoth just wants to end the stasis he believes Zoss and Metatron are inflicting on existence. He's also not enthused with the idea of a world that creates Yaun ten Jantris.
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May 15, 2023 20:23
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thechosenone posted:Wait we were supposed to get more gog agog right? What if the idea is to get Gog to defeat Jagganoth? I don't know if she couldn't mostly beat him herself, since she sort of represents the proletariat in the work (as a teeming mass of worms that largely can't be made to do much because so easily distracted and otherwise caught up in her foibles). I do not think Gog represents the proletariat.
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May 15, 2023 20:27
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Gog-agog is going to show up again and give either Allison or Jagganoth exactly what they want from her. How hard she twists the knife first is up in the air.
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May 15, 2023 20:43
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Schwarzwald posted:I do not think Gog represents the proletariat. You telling me "the mass always win" isn't really about historical materialism!?
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May 15, 2023 20:53
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Victis posted:Jagganoth just wants to end the stasis he believes Zoss and Metatron are inflicting on existence. his stated goal is the destruction of time.
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May 15, 2023 21:17
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Maybe we need to go beyond the time
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May 15, 2023 21:30
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Schwarzwald posted:I do not think Gog represents the proletariat. Yeah Gog-Agog represents the Spectacle, which is a whole other thing and discussed pretty widely Also she literally says that Solomon David’s great dignity will be reduced to spectacle in her big speech Ain’t no proletariat in Gog, just hungry eyes
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May 15, 2023 21:40
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Ah so she's more like mass media and consumerism, always trying to be liked and knifing people who don't pay tribute to them? Sounds right.
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May 15, 2023 22:59
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thechosenone posted:Ah so she's more like mass media and consumerism, always trying to be liked and knifing people who don't pay tribute to them? Sounds right. Yeah, she’s “bad stagnant social decay that doesn’t require a single tyrant, just an opiate supplier (metaphorical and literal)” Lowest common denominator stagnation.
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May 15, 2023 23:10
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Niavmai posted:his stated goal is the destruction of time. What? That’s his response to “what is the prison” that reality is held in. A prison controlled by Zoss (by Jagganoth’s dawning understanding) because he keeps rewinding it via the powers stolen from Metatron, causing infinite tragedies as he experiments over and over. His goal is to annihilate Existence containing Metatron and Zoss, whom he blames for maintaining an artificial cycle that no one can even perceive, let alone escape. He believes that only with those external influences removed (himself included) can anyone or anything be free Now, if you happen to currently exist this might be a problem for you; but as he also states, there have already been a countless number of souls snuffed out due to “resets” wiegieman posted:He's also not enthused with the idea of a world that creates Yaun ten Jantris. Sure, at first. Then imagine how pissed off he is when he realizes that there’s some rear end in a top hat that’s creating endless Yauns as a byproduct of his hubris Victis fucked around with this message at 00:25 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 00:08
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Victis posted:What? That’s his response to “what is the prison” that reality is held in. A prison controlled by Zoss (by Jagganoth’s dawning understanding) because he keeps rewinding it via the powers stolen from Metatron, causing infinite tragedies as he experiments over and over time is the prison -> metatron maintains the prison -> i want to destroy him so i can make things differently without the prison -> i want to destroy time
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May 16, 2023 00:22
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Victis posted:Jagganoth just wants to end the stasis he believes Zoss and Metatron are inflicting on existence. I mean, he does want to do that. But his stated step two and three are to "Burn away this midden heap permanently" and "Reforge the Wheel, free of pain, fear, and suffering." That is to say, he plans on annihilating all of a flawed (but very populated!) creation, so that he can supposedly make a better one.
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May 16, 2023 00:25
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Niavmai posted:time is the prison -> metatron maintains the prison -> i want to destroy him so i can make things differently without the prison -> i want to destroy time I find that an unsupported reading? Jagganoth wants there to be AN existence. Just not this one, with a guy manipulating it whom everyone seems either powerless or unwilling to stop Jagganoth isn’t the “stasis” guy so I’m not sure what arguing he wants time gone but an otherwise functional universe leads to
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May 16, 2023 00:41
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Yeah, his plan is definitely to destroy time, along with space and matter and everything else, and then he'll put together a new reality, which will presumably have its own versions of those things. He's pretty clear about that being his goal; a new reality that he can set up however he wants, because he's operating on the assumption that he can create a better world than the current one, where maybe no kids have to watch their mothers get split in half. If he actually did it? Of course, his world would suck just as much. Probably more, since even with the Key he would be less capable than YISUN was. That said, of course, The Song of Maybe posted:Only once was there a question which YISUN hesitated to answer. Strangely enough, it was asked by Aesma, the least wise of their companions. They trod a stony road together, and Aesma's feet grew hot and sore. She swore and spat, and clutched her feet, and asked YISUN a stupid question.
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May 16, 2023 00:42
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idonotlikepeas posted:The story of the Silver Prince probably has some relevance here. Once he acknowledged that violence was inescapable, that didn't mean that he himself had to become a master of it; he was able to use the violence of others to serve his own ends. It wasn't the life he wanted, but he was able to find peace in it not just despite, but because of acknowledging the violence inherent in the human condition. I mean, there's the problem that YISUN probably DIDNT want to create a "better" world than this. a "better" world from the perspective of most people would be incredibly dull to YISUN. never forget the initial act of division was divine suicide out of sheer boredom also gog represents worms and their power of decay obv ThatBasqueGuy fucked around with this message at 01:43 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 01:30
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Thundarr posted:Gog-agog is going to show up again and give either Allison or Jagganoth exactly what they want from her. How hard she twists the knife first is up in the air. No, I honestly think she's going to show up and give both Allison and Jagganoth exactly what they want from her. She won't even be trying to twist the knife, too. I believe in Gog-Agog.
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May 16, 2023 04:07
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Curtana posted:No, I honestly think she's going to show up and give both Allison and Jagganoth exactly what they want from her. She won't even be trying to twist the knife, too. I believe in Gog-Agog.
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May 16, 2023 06:40
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Given enough time we'll all be Gog parachute accounts.
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May 16, 2023 12:21
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girl dick energy posted:Gog parachute spotted. Their alt-account too. Must be weird to go skydiving with yourself. And yourself. And yourself. And-...
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May 16, 2023 13:41
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Thyrork posted:Their alt-account too.
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May 16, 2023 14:45
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Why didn't Jagganoth attack Metatron directly? Does he think he isn't strong enough yet?
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May 16, 2023 15:18
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probably. metatron is the closest remaining thing to God in the setting and the keys are literally his words made manifest. his take on “PERISH” would probably be way more potent that or jagganoth wants the keys to circumvent the time rewind that he assumes would happen upon his rebellion
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May 16, 2023 15:23
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FuturePastNow posted:Why didn't Jagganoth attack Metatron directly? Does he think he isn't strong enough yet? Metatron exists in the ethereal plane where angels' bodies are corporeal, but mortals are shades. And even if you are there it's questionable you'd even know where to find him. Also Jagganoth's invincibility literally comes from Metatron - the nails in his back are Metatron's feathers. I've got a feeling he couldn't hurt Metatron if he tried. Really though, no one really knows or understands the nature and depth of Metatron's power. He's kept the charade of being subjugated by Zoss up for a long time.
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May 16, 2023 15:24
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Metatron exists in the ethereal plane where angels' bodies are corporeal, but mortals are shades. I wonder what Giant Voltron Ladies are in that realm
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May 16, 2023 15:25
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Really though, no one really knows or understands the nature and depth of Metatron's power. He's kept the charade of being subjugated by Zoss up for a long time. is it a charade though? every narrator on the subject we've had so far has been unreliable, with the exception of the scene of him invading white chain's mind. 1 michael's perspective is the closest one we know to being what metatron wants, and his statement is an empty sterlie heaven with the king still on their throne.
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May 16, 2023 16:42
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Of course we can't really know for sure, since there may be other revelations, but Jagganoth's assertion that Metatron is control of Zoss and not the other way around seems likely. And since most people believe Zoss was the one that dominated Metatron and stole the names, instead of being enslaved by Metatron, yeah, it seems like a charade to me. I don't think 2 Michael is reliable at all though, he seems like just another pawn with incomplete information. He thinks the heir will join Metatron to bring in the new pure world, when Metratron actually just wants Jagganoth to kill everyone (again) and start a new cycle with the same problems (again). If Metatron even has "wants" and isn't just a broken computer-god. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 18:15 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 18:08
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I suspect Zoss and Metatron are in direct conflict, with neither actually having control of the other. If either is in a position of power I think it’s Zoss, but Metatron seems more like a cosmic disaster that Zoss has yet to overcome and definitely caused by breaking God’s Scribe. Remember we saw Metatron and he is physically broken with wings coming out of the cracks, and all the other Prime Angels were slain by Zoss. The “Metatron’s in charge” account is very ‘this isn’t blood it’s victory wine’ on Juggernaut’s part.
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May 16, 2023 18:21
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Yeah, there's a lot that's unknown about Metatron. He had the names and the godly power the whole time - how else would Zoss have taken them from him? - but apparently never used them until Zoss and the other mortals appeared and colonized Throne. Why sit on that much power that long, and then NOW use that power? If he really wants to remake the world, couldn't he have done that on his own long ago? Is it revenge against Zoss for slaughtering the angels and torturing him? Is he a broken machine? Are his reasons just so completely inscrutable and alien they can't be comprehended? We definitely don't have all the revelations yet. I'm always keeping in mind he's God's scribe, not God itself, and what that might mean. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 19:02 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 18:59
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Joe Slowboat posted:I suspect Zoss and Metatron are in direct conflict, with neither actually having control of the other. If either is in a position of power I think it’s Zoss, but Metatron seems more like a cosmic disaster that Zoss has yet to overcome and definitely caused by breaking God’s Scribe. This seems likely. If there's any truth to Jagganoth's narrative, I suspect that Metatron may have cut some kind of deal with Zoss in order to further his own plans, but not one where Zoss willingly bent the knee. Michael, Jagganoth, and Zoss are all nominally working for Metatron (in at least one telling of the story) and are all working at cross purposes with each other. If they were all willingly serving a role in Metatron's scheme then the redundancy wouldn't be necessary. They're all multiple contingencies set up by Metatron in order to engineer a win-win scenario. If Michael wins, history comes full circle and plays out the same way as it did before and Metatron gets a stagnant world. If Jagganoth wins, the universe is cleansed and Metatron gets a completely sterile, stagnant world. And the best Zoss can do in the face of such opposition is to mash the reset button and try again, leading to yet another form of stagnation. In no case does the multiverse substantially evolve beyond its current state.
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May 16, 2023 19:12
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Yeah, there's a lot that's unknown about Metatron. He had the names and the godly power the whole time - how else would Zoss have taken them from him? - but apparently never used them until Zoss and the other mortals appeared and colonized Throne. Why sit on that much power that long, and then NOW use that power? If he really wants to remake the world, couldn't he have done that on his own long ago? Is it revenge against Zoss for slaughtering the angels and torturing him? Is he a broken machine? Are his reasons just so completely inscrutable and alien they can't be comprehended? It's been mentioned that Metatron is heavily restricted by The Old Law that Koss forged into the angels. There are plenty of angels that abandoned the new laws of man, but no angel is capable, at all, of violating the old law, it was shaped into them when they were made and is fundamental to their very existence. (Although who knows about new White Chain). Metatron has the power to win, instantly, but the Old Law won't let him. Granting power to Zoss was probably his way of loopholing. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:25 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 19:18
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I keep thinking about Myself, who seems to be some sort of cosmic opposite to Metatron and whose big foreshadowed moment hasn't come up yet.
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May 16, 2023 19:22
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Yeah, there's a lot that's unknown about Metatron. He had the names and the godly power the whole time - how else would Zoss have taken them from him? - but apparently never used them until Zoss and the other mortals appeared and colonized Throne. Why sit on that much power that long, and then NOW use that power? If he really wants to remake the world, couldn't he have done that on his own long ago? Is it revenge against Zoss for slaughtering the angels and torturing him? Is he a broken machine? Are his reasons just so completely inscrutable and alien they can't be comprehended? Angels don't change, don't create, and they don't rule. Even just the regular ones are constantly emphasized to be nigh-unstoppable badasses but they're totally absent from the upper echelons of any organization, where even purpose-bred servitors like Mammon pop up from time to time, and we can infer from the common thread between his followers that even among angels Metatron is exceptionally into keeping everyone in their rigidly defined roles. I don't think Metatron wants to, or is capable of conceptualizing, remaking the world, on his own or otherwise. All of his pawns think the whole cycle is working towards some kind of static endpoint where time will stop (literally or metaphorically) and things will be perfect forever, and that's always been presented as delusional. The world inexorably moves forwards, through violence and suffering, but Metatron fears change above all; and while he can't freeze the universe in place or end conflict forever he can at least keep it from evolving beyond his ken by diverting the biggest agents of change to keep it running in the same circle over and over. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 19:52 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 19:38
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Bongo Bill posted:I keep thinking about Myself, who seems to be some sort of cosmic opposite to Metatron and whose big foreshadowed moment hasn't come up yet.
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May 16, 2023 19:48
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I hope they turn back time just enough to have more adventures with grandpa dog.
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May 16, 2023 20:27
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Carve a new reality where Mammon and Vigilant Gaze sit on a shaded veranda, sip iced tea, and discuss their grandchildren.
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May 16, 2023 20:37
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Angels can violate the Old Law, it's just doing so is incredibly injurious to them. The shape Metatron is in indicates he definitely did some no-nos, imo. A Wizard of Goatse posted:Even just the regular ones are constantly emphasized to be nigh-unstoppable badasses but they're totally absent from the upper echelons of any organization Vash had a high ranking angel in his org, Delicious. So not totally absent. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 20:44 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 20:40
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An old quote from Operant that might be relevant, asked if it was possible for an Angel to become a demiurgequote:They (quite literally) don’t have the ambition for it, because the Old Law hammered into their beings prevents it. You can see this with 2 Michael and Metatron, who are extremely powerful beings (Metatron himself being a remnant of true divinity and magnitudes more powerful than any of the Demiurges), but must concoct very convoluted plots to get their efforts to rule Throne in order to get around their prohibition on ruling.
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May 16, 2023 20:49
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I wonder how Metatron will be portrayed when he finally appears again. I feel like he's the sort who's too formidable to directly speak to Allison and so will need some sort of interpreter.
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May 16, 2023 21:01
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Yeah, that was a problem when he spoke to White Chain
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May 16, 2023 21:08
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