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rotinaj posted:I don’t want to get too into it because of spoilers, but hosea definitely does not get enough criticism as one of the reasons the gang is so into crime and heists and essentially being snake oil salesmen at times. Reminds me some of nigel west dickens in RDR1. Aren't most of Hosea's ideas things that involve just tricking rich people (or at least people who are pretty well off landowners)? He definitely likes doing crimes, but they don't seem like the "kill lots of people" sort of crimes (and the rest of their group also likes those sorts of crimes, so it's not like Hosea is the catalyst there). Arthur also never has a problem with that sort of thing, as opposed to stuff like the loan collecting (or stuff that devolves into doing lots of murders in general).
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May 16, 2023 00:24
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ploots posted:
He really does, God bless him! 
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May 16, 2023 01:08
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Another Bill posted:It has mediocre reviews but Days Gone is the only game that felt as immersive as RDR2 to me. The gameplay is a bit repetitive but that repetition involves wasting zombies by the dozen with a variety of automatic weapons, so I didn't get bored. The story has a couple of pretty good twists too imo. Yeah. Days Gone had a rough launch that put a lot of people off, but nowadays I firmly recommend it to anyone remotely interested. Is there a mod or tool or anything that lets you port your online character into single player? I know there's the Red Dead Offline stuff that adds clothes and guns and some activities to single player, but I really liked how my character came out and it'd be fun to yeehaw around without fretting about the servers taking a dump.
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May 16, 2023 01:43
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Poo In An Alleyway posted:Don't forget the drunk soldier talking about the Native American camp where he killed people before passing out and/or dying in his sleep One guy told me a horrifying story about leading a wagon train up north and abandoning them to cannibalism. I like the ones that just let you sit and hang out.
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May 16, 2023 03:40
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Hosea is the one who seemed to get Jack big into reading, seeing as John has no interest and Abigail has what’s implied to be a learning disability. Not that it absolves him of blame but a few times with the younger and more moral of the group wants them to do better that what they are currently doing on the run with a gang, especially Lenny.
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May 16, 2023 13:41
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Ytlaya posted:Aren't most of Hosea's ideas things that involve just tricking rich people (or at least people who are pretty well off landowners)? He definitely likes doing crimes, but they don't seem like the "kill lots of people" sort of crimes (and the rest of their group also likes those sorts of crimes, so it's not like Hosea is the catalyst there). Hosea is also the one who plans the Saint Denis bank heist, and convinces an unsure Dutch to go through with it ("every plan is a good plan if we execute it properly") Of course he was also against getting revenge on Bronte and who knows, maybe if the Bronte's murder and the trolley heist hadn't put things on edge the bank job would have worked.
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May 16, 2023 15:57
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ploots posted:The ones that come to mind are: Oh yeah, I've met some of those, but i include them in the named category since they seemed like handcrafted exceptions to the general fyad attitude of wilderness campers. Sounds like there's still quite a few cool exceptions to find though, thanks!
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May 16, 2023 16:32
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christmas boots posted:Hosea is also the one who plans the Saint Denis bank heist, and convinces an unsure Dutch to go through with it ("every plan is a good plan if we execute it properly") Of course Hosea knew all of that and still insisted on the bank robbery. Even if Dutch ruined it through his actions, Hosea isn't blind, deaf and stupid. He should have given up on the bank job based on what Dutch had done instead of going full steam ahead with it. In any event, while this was a bigger disaster for certain, Hosea being all for robbing the two families to get their gold is too often overlooked. Trelawney himself tells us he tried to dissuade Hosea and Hosea blew him off. The dude tried to sell the Braithwaites back their own moonshine. Catherine Braithwaite laughed in his face, clearly onto him from the start. She directs him and Arthur to a bar and then eventually the Raiders - her business partners - show up at the bar to kill Hosea and Arthur. At no point after all this does Hosea deem to think "maybe I haven't totally fooled her. Nah, I'm in complete control." I think it's as simple as Hosea is a lot more humble and open-minded in camp, among his family, which we mostly see since he's too old to go out and do much else these days. But put him with others, he's as cocky and sure of himself as Dutch. He's been doing this even longer than Dutch. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:01 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 16:58
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NikkolasKing posted:Of course Hosea knew all of that and still insisted on the bank robbery. Even if Dutch ruined it through his actions, Hosea isn't blind, deaf and stupid. He should have given up on the bank job based on what Dutch had done instead of going full steam ahead with it. Hosea and Dutch both are horrifically out of their element in Rhodes and even moreso in Saint Denis. They are outlaws from the frontier and their tried and true methods and scams work in that context. They are in over their heads with the corruption and crime in the more settled portions of the country and the most important portion is their lack of understanding of how interconnected the various players are and their reaction times. The gang's plans and scams are designed to work in the type of isolation they are familiar with in frontier towns. This is why in general they do very well in Chapter 2, with only Cornwall and their repeated targeting of him showing their lack of adjustment to the modern world. They underestimate how quickly consequences of their actions will show up. In Rhodes, they assume the local rich families are stupid and inbred and attempt a comically easy to suss out ruse. They assume the 2 families will behave like them and the O'Driscoll's, mortal enemies that never speak. That is not the case, and the low level family members or servants absolutely talked and figured out the gang's game. The gang also fails again to grasp how fast consequences will show up because they are used to being in isolated towns where the various factions are days of travel apart from each other, not 2 wealthy family farms that keep a fairly large town running to service their farmhands and servants. In Saint Denis they are completely overmatched by Bronte and an actual criminal syndicate that has the mayor and police in its pockets. Dutch and Hosea simply do not even consider the fact that Bronte not only had contacts with the police, but could order them around. They plow ahead with their heists and do not understand that the police have much more significant resources than a town sheriff and can put together who was behind the Trolley station and Riverboat heists, and deduce that the bank is a likely target as well, and thus know not to bite on obvious diversions. This then continues as Dutch loses it and thinks he needs "noise" to escape the Pinkertons, because yet again he does not grasp that their organization is large enough that it can handle multiple cases at once and won't be distracted by his smokescreens. If anything each thing he does simply puts an even bigger spotlight on the gang. Their best bet to escape was after the fight in the swamp. If the gang cut and ran then and split off the noncombatants, they could have potentially seen the heat die down enough to escape the country. Still unlikely, but that was the best chance they had to actually have their trail get lost as essentially every pinkerton in the area was dead.
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May 16, 2023 18:21
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Hosea and Dutch both are horrifically out of their element in Rhodes and even moreso in Saint Denis. They are outlaws from the frontier and their tried and true methods and scams work in that context. They are in over their heads with the corruption and crime in the more settled portions of the country and the most important portion is their lack of understanding of how interconnected the various players are and their reaction times. I agree with all of that. I think we both would say the gang's collapse is a lot more nuanced than some present it as. I also like Hosea and think he did his best. But I was responding to what I feel is a simple fact, that Hosea isn't held accountable enough and I think it's all due to the way his character is presented. At this point I've been in the fandom long enough and also watched enough LPs to see how most players come away viewing Hosea as the voice of reason and conscience and wisdom. Which he might be a lot of the time but, just like Arthur, he still makes plenty of mistakes which are his fault. But because Arthur and Hosea are sad, sad men, some fans overlook their flaws more readily. Here's a dialogue which I feel is completely indefensible from Hosea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwBnrC3ootY&t=26s Dutch heard his lifelong friend coughing and asked "you okay?" and Hosea had to use this as a springboard to attack Dutch about how they all might die and it's all Dutch's fault. That's not wisdom and compassion, it's being a dick. Is he being a dick because he's worried about everyone? Absolutely. I think everyone in the gang save Micah had the gang's interests at heart but that doesn't mean Dutch or Hosea or even Arthur always went about it the right way. That's the tragedy.
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May 16, 2023 18:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt2VA_hf3jg I love these. My GF pointed out to me that, while we don't get much philosophy from Hosea like we do with Dutch and Arthur, he probably more or less agrees with them in their dislike of the modern world. I had forgotten this exchange but here you are. It's a bit like how John opens up how much he is like Dutch and Arthur more in RDR1 . In RDR2, like Hosea, he's a bit too worried by personal issues to go on about his politics or whatever.
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May 18, 2023 05:07
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christmas boots posted:Hosea is also the one who plans the Saint Denis bank heist, and convinces an unsure Dutch to go through with it ("every plan is a good plan if we execute it properly") The impression I got regarding that bank heist is that they were in a desperate situation (due to all the Bronte stuff) and needed to get a big infusion of cash from *somewhere*. I think what WoodrowSkillson describes is accurate, but it's important to remember that the main push against just fleeing West early on was from Dutch. Most of the bad stuff that happens stems from Dutch's insistence on gathering a bunch of money (via doing crimes in relatively urban areas) before getting out of dodge.
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May 18, 2023 05:31
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The actual size of the gameworld is something I sometimes struggle to get my head around, because I basically consider it all to be happening essentially in one (very large) geographical area but the game is supposed to be happening across several states right? I got the initial conceit that they couldn't go West because they'd had to flee Blackwater (which is....South? It's across the border from Mexico, right? Geography is NOT my strong suit) and they were too weak/exhausted/broke for a long trip after surviving the storm, and settled on Valentine as a place to rebuild their status.... but after they flee the confrontation with Cornwall and head into Rhodes (I'm assuming that's Virginia?) surely they have the opportunities now to head West? I know the reason they don't is because then there isn't a game, but outside of Dutch's obsession with getting one over on Cornwall before they finally leave I felt like there probably should have been better reasoning given for why they didn't try to push out West again. But hell, maybe that was enough, Dutch didn't want to leave just yet and what he said went.
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May 18, 2023 06:19
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That's a question gang members bring up over and over, more frequently and more seriously as the game progresses. Arthur and Hosea ask Dutch why they don't just leave several times, and Dutch always answers that they need more money or that they need to blow away whichever villain is giving them trouble at that point.
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May 18, 2023 14:37
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He has….A PLAN I don’t know how much clearer he needs to make it!!
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May 18, 2023 15:08
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Ainsley McTree posted:He has….A PLAN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_RWqt8lieE
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May 18, 2023 15:13
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Ainsley McTree posted:He has….A PLAN Have some goddamn faith!
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May 18, 2023 15:44
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MANGOES
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May 18, 2023 15:49
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Jerusalem posted:The actual size of the gameworld is something I sometimes struggle to get my head around, because I basically consider it all to be happening essentially in one (very large) geographical area but the game is supposed to be happening across several states right? I love nerding out over this so forgive me, this is a nice distraction from a boring work day. there is no 1:1 map for the game world over the USA, but various people have made approximations. Here are a couple that mostly seem correct in assigning locations to their rough place geographically, but there is no "correct" map as its not a real map and not meant to be perfectly overlaid on the real USA.   the characters mention having moved significant distances a few times, and Arthur mentions being wanted in multiple states. So the basic read to me is each chapter break represents the gang making a significant move that would have taken days/weeks. They start in Blackwater, one of the most nebulous locations as the "real" blackwater is in northern Missouri and Blackwater is St Louis and Dallas mushed together into a town that is more like where Tusla is, but also on the Mississippi/Gulf of Mexico. Blackwater is fled by making a sprint northwest across the plains and then lose the pinkertons in the Grizzles, which are the Rockies but with a fictional east/west spur that juts nearly to Missouri. This takes weeks, to the point the gang has nearly exhausted all food supplies. They move roughly southeast to leave the Grizzles, popping out west of Valentine and setting up southeast of Valentine in the plains of Colorado/Kansas. This again takes time, though faster with the snow melting and heading downhill. Horseshoe Overlook is then abandoned and they head southeast again, crossing the plains and entering Lemoyne which is a hodgepodge of Arkansas, Louisiana, and The South. This represents going from roughly The shift from the Clemens's point to shady belle move is much smaller, but still likely took a day or 2. Lakay is not far from Saint Denis the move to Beaver Hollow is the last big move that represents going from New Orleans to The Ozarks which is hundreds of miles. The way Rockstar organized the game world is that nearly everything makes sense scale wise for the active mission. They take care to make sure that normally you do not wander into different biomes mid-mission, even if you do change "states." So kind of like with skyrim, you have to imagine that along the roads in between towns there are invisible time breaks. I.e. along the road from Valentine to Rhodes either are the state border or elsewhere they is a skip where Arthur is just riding along and camping for days. However if you cross that same place mid-mission, that is ignored and where you are is supposedly consistent geographically. This gets pushed to its limit at the end of the game where the gang is met in Beaver Hollow in the Ozarks by native people living in the Wapati Reservation which is solidly located in the northern Rockies. They then ride to the Cornwall Oil Fields in Oklahoma. that's obviously impossible so the prior "within the mission its consistent" rules takes precedence. Jerusalem posted:The actual size of the gameworld is something I sometimes struggle to get my head around, because I basically consider it all to be happening essentially in one (very large) geographical area but the game is supposed to be happening across several states right? I got the initial conceit that they couldn't go West because they'd had to flee Blackwater (which is....South? It's across the border from Mexico, right? Geography is NOT my strong suit) and they were too weak/exhausted/broke for a long trip after surviving the storm, and settled on Valentine as a place to rebuild their status.... but after they flee the confrontation with Cornwall and head into Rhodes (I'm assuming that's Virginia?) surely they have the opportunities now to head West? Yeah, Nikkolas and I were just discussing a portion of that as well. The thing that nearly any successful escape hinges on the fact the gang as it is cannot be held together. Micah is not incorrect in his assertion that the camp followers are a liability. The problem is the camp followers are what make Dutch's gang not a normal gang of outlaws. Dutch does truly care for people like Uncle and Reverend, but also they are the ones that give him his cult leader status and allow him to maintain his fiction as a higher minded individual compared to Colm. At nearly any point after one of the big shootouts they could have cut and ran, but it would be to an uncertain future out west where even traditional lawless areas are now being brought to heel. They would have to move to like, Oregon or Washington and then Canada to escape the reach of the US govt and Pinkertons. they need pure physical distance from Govt offices and telegraph/telephone lines. There are too many mouths to feed as it stands and anyone kicked out of the gang against their will might go flip on them. Dutch is losing it but he does not want to shoot Uncle dead for instance. Their best chance was to listen to Hosea and head west ASAP from Valentine instead of pursuing anything else. The heat from Blackwater would die off eventually and if they could survive for a few years in the remote parts of the PNW living rough they could maybe come back for the money someday. However Micah would not stand for that, neither would Bill and possibly not Javier either. So again we are stuck with the gang potentially breaking up only with the hired guns being kicked out, who likely would only leave peacefully if given the location of the Blackwater money, meaning the rest of the gang likely never sees it.
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May 18, 2023 16:04
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Their best chance was to listen to Hosea and head west ASAP from Valentine instead of pursuing anything else. The heat from Blackwater would die off eventually and if they could survive for a few years in the remote parts of the PNW living rough they could maybe come back for the money someday. However Micah would not stand for that, neither would Bill and possibly not Javier either. So again we are stuck with the gang potentially breaking up only with the hired guns being kicked out, who likely would only leave peacefully if given the location of the Blackwater money, meaning the rest of the gang likely never sees it. In this situation they could have done some homesteading in the PNW/British Columbia, and Dutch could have become a different kind of cult leader. How much of the west coast was settled in 1899? The gameworld is pretty populated, but there's a world outside it, too.
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May 18, 2023 16:26
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Philippe posted:In this situation they could have done some homesteading in the PNW/British Columbia, and Dutch could have become a different kind of cult leader. How much of the west coast was settled in 1899? The gameworld is pretty populated, but there's a world outside it, too. Decently populated, but significantly more isolated from things like the Pinkertons and law enforcement simply because phones were still a new idea and its 2000 miles from DC. Idaho was pretty drat empty at the time. The issue is getting the gunslingers of the group to go along with it. They are on board with "steal a ton of money and live rich" not "scrape by living off the land and laying low in Idaho." So one way or another they have to part ways. Now the simplest would be put a bullet in Micah and move on, but Dutch wont do that.
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May 18, 2023 16:31
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To be fair while Micah is the biggest liability I can't really see Bill, Javier, Sean or even most of the ladies being willing to hunker down and till the soil. Abigail was the only one who even really wanted a quiet farm life and even she struggles with it when she gets it.
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May 18, 2023 16:38
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From the conversations I think it's mostly a skill issue. She's happy with the house and the animals, but worried that they're not good enough at farming to make a decent living (while also very specifically not taking any of John's outlaw money, and also not any of his legitimately obtained fur trading money for some reason). I agree that most of the gang wouldn't be okay with dirt farming, but what else could you do? You wanna live fast and die young, go right ahead, bucko.
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May 18, 2023 16:49
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Here's another map of the game world I saved somewhere. They did a great job of compressing so much variety of the country into such a small area.
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May 18, 2023 16:53
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American truck sim should take notes
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May 18, 2023 16:57
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FuturePastNow posted:Here's another map of the game world I saved somewhere. the Cumberland forest is absolutely not Michigan lol. the only big geographical change that needs to be accounted for are the grizzles running east west through southern Kansas into Missouri. That basally covers how you can get from the Ozarks to the Rockies without going too far. Basically in RDR2 world Kansas is actually mountainous and there is Mordor style right angle in the Rockies that juts through the plains. this is neat https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/red-dead-redemption-2-3d-map-af68b2398b99446dbf0f7e90f9f104f3 WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 17:25 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 17:13
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Philippe posted:From the conversations I think it's mostly a skill issue. She's happy with the house and the animals, but worried that they're not good enough at farming to make a decent living (while also very specifically not taking any of John's outlaw money, and also not any of his legitimately obtained fur trading money for some reason). I think my queen Sadie would be okay with dirt farming. That woman is adaptable, especially now that Colm O'Driscoll is dead.
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May 18, 2023 17:41
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Cumberland Forest always seemed to be Virginia/Tennessee to me. Where the Cumberland gap is in real life.
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May 18, 2023 18:07
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Poo In An Alleyway posted:I think my queen Sadie would be okay with dirt farming. That woman is adaptable, especially now that Colm O'Driscoll is dead. not with the gang though. she tags along due to the set of events that occur, she would leave if they were headed up to homestead.
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May 18, 2023 18:18
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Thanks for the replies everybody, fascinating stuff, I really didn't have a grasp of just how big the area the game ends up supposedly traversing actually is.... they move across half of America! Arthur riding his horse from Van Horn to Blackwater in one trip is pretty loving crazy!
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May 18, 2023 18:31
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Lol yeah, but if you notice, you don't go past any mountains or whatnot and it's all along the Mississippi analogue, so for that mission the landscape makes sense in isolation.
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May 18, 2023 18:32
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Jerusalem posted:Thanks for the replies everybody, fascinating stuff, I really didn't have a grasp of just how big the area the game ends up supposedly traversing actually is.... they move across half of America! It explains why the horse keeps running out of stamina at least
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May 18, 2023 18:38
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i wonder if they had done what W3 did and have separate maps for each major area if that would have worked better or worse. you lose the full interconnected map but theoretically could have gained space and a more realistic feel in each area.
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May 18, 2023 19:00
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WoodrowSkillson posted:i wonder if they had done what W3 did and have separate maps for each major area if that would have worked better or worse. you lose the full interconnected map but theoretically could have gained space and a more realistic feel in each area. Ehh, that sounds worse to me. One of the joys of rdr1, and even more so in rdr2, was the way it made a long horse trip feel so fun that you didn’t want to fast travel. The scenery, the random encounters, etc, long trips kinda feel like a proper journey, if that makes sense. I feel like loading screens would take me out of it, we’d lose more than we’d gain and the game feels like it has plenty of space to me already.
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May 18, 2023 19:03
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WoodrowSkillson posted:i wonder if they had done what W3 did and have separate maps for each major area if that would have worked better or worse. you lose the full interconnected map but theoretically could have gained space and a more realistic feel in each area. TBH I prefer what we got even if it means suspending some disbelief.
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May 18, 2023 19:05
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christmas boots posted:TBH I prefer what we got even if it means suspending some disbelief. Same. Being able to ride the whole way across the map through the different states and environments seamlessly is so good.
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May 18, 2023 19:11
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christmas boots posted:TBH I prefer what we got even if it means suspending some disbelief. i agree in general for sure Edit: yeah i don't think anyone is actually complaining, its just a trade off that has to be made to deliver the open world they wanted. was just a thought i had. WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 19:17 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 19:13
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Yeah, I love Witcher 3 but I wasn't complaining about RDR2's map, I think it's incredible and I love being able to mosey my way through it on my good horsey 
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May 18, 2023 19:13
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Especially for a game that revels in the small moments and letting you soak in the landscape.
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May 18, 2023 19:36
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Philippe posted:Especially for a game that revels in the small moments and letting you soak in the landscape. I think this is it. It works for other games, but moseying through the countryside is such a part of the core experience that I wouldn't want it broken up in any way.
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May 18, 2023 19:38
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