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Yeah that's the rub, the only way to involve Trump in a debate (or even a town hall!) and not have it turn into a complete dumpster fire is to add a bunch of regulations, which he will then complain about and say he's being treated very unfairly, which is his whole thing. There is truly no way to make it beneficial. He's not a normal functioning adult who can be part of a real conversation. No amount of Anderson Cooper "shame on you for not being willing to listen to people with 'different politics'" changes the fact that the man simply does not want to engage. It's the most clear-cut example of the whole "pearls before swine" thing.
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May 18, 2023 12:22
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pencilhands posted:Hot take: debates are mostly stupid anyways. Everyone involved already knows what the candidates think, they’re just an opportunity for someone to trip up or score a sick own that becomes a soundbite. No one on earth is sitting there giving a crap about either candidate’s opinion on anything Correct (and not that hot of a take) I’m not gonna toxx on it or anything but I’d wager we see zero traditional debates featuring Trump or Biden during this Presidential election cycle. Biden isn’t going to want to debate any of his primary challengers, and Trump isn’t going to want to debate anyone. I can see Trump agreeing to a town hall-style with Biden since that’s more his niche but for that reason I could also see Biden refusing to do it. They shouldn’t be but the televised debates we’ve become accustomed to over the last 50 years are dying and will soon be dead. Very little upside to them that you can control and lots of ways to hurt yourself in the horse race.
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May 18, 2023 12:37
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Judgy Fucker posted:
I think debates are moving more and more towards something resembling the Jerry Springer Show than anything really useful or informative. In about 10 or 20 years, candidates will be expected to start throwing chairs at each other over bleeped out curse words while the audience chants USA USA USA!
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May 18, 2023 12:57
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The concept of a debate is undergirded by the axiom that candidates are competing based on policies, which is no longer really valid.
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May 18, 2023 13:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The concept of a debate is undergirded by the axiom that candidates are competing based on policies, which is no longer really valid. Yeah it's mostly canned answers with a bit of trying to squeeze in a sick burn/soundbite so the audience can go "oooooo-ooooooooo" and you can get in the news. A lot of times you can even tell when an opponent sets someone up by saying something the other guy was waiting for and hoping they'd say and then there's this total ownage response ready to go. Except usually they gently caress it up, rush it and it comes off stiff and rehearsed, which it is. Trump doesn't really do this because I don't think he plans anything so, in his case, it's a whole other level of inanity because he's just spewing garbage non stop and he drowns his opponent in a barrage of poo poo missles.
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May 18, 2023 13:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The concept of a debate is undergirded by the axiom that candidates are competing based on policies, which is no longer really valid. The only worth in a debate is to show how mean you are willing to get in attacking the other side. Biden could rip on all of Trump's ridiculous poo poo or go to his past and hosed up family relations for points, but the  approach is all his circles expect.
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May 18, 2023 13:27
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Biden wasn't decorous with Trump in the debates; he attempted to be as assertive as him and the end result was two septuagenarians talking over each other for 90 minutes straight and it was everybody's least favorite thing ever. I think we should prefer to have debates, even if they're stupid (although we should try to make them less stupid). They can serve a purpose because a lot of people have very, very dim understandings of the parties or of individual candidates. The main problem with debates as we've had them is that they don't do much to illuminate that understanding. But I think getting rid of them entirely would be (will be, I guess) a step backwards.
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May 18, 2023 13:34
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BiggerBoat posted:Yeah, it's more like the fact that Trump debates like a child . . . . You're not going to "win" this argument. You just have to send him to his room without his ice cream and diet coke. or, y'know, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHO6m_UmwSs I jest, but 200 years ago, the poo poo Trump pulls would have gotten him shot; a hundred years ago it would have gotten him beaten. But nobody is going to beat or shoot him for saying poo poo today -- rightly, those things are bad and people shouldn't do them! But that means he can insult and ride roughshod over women and his misogynistic base won't care, and he can insult and ride roughshod over his Republican opponents and make them look like weak saps who are afraid of him. That was the real mechanic that won him the Republican debates: he said a bunch of poo poo that would have gotten anybody else the Will Smith treatment, and his Republican opponents stood there and just took it and looked weak and afraid of him, and the Republican base lapped that poo poo up because they want to be bullies too, and so he won. So since we can't (and shouldn't!) beat or shoot or physically humiliate him on stage (imagine if Ted Cruz had just walked over and pantsed him during the Republican debates)(but the last thing we'd want to see is some sad physical tussle between Biden and Trump), there's no point in engaging at all. Mellow Seas posted:Biden wasn't decorous with Trump in the debates; he attempted to be as assertive as him and the end result was two septuagenarians talking over each other for 90 minutes straight and it was everybody's least favorite thing ever. Yeah that's basically the only strategy that can "work," in the sense of avoiding a loss -- just being as big a verbal bully as you can back -- but it just produces a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. There's no public good served by broadcasting such a "debate." Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:05 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 13:49
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If I could only have one change for the debates, it would be no audience.
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May 18, 2023 13:57
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https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1659181109119184896 Nancy Pelosi's daughter is named Nancy? Anyway, more proof in the Iron Law of Institutions
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May 18, 2023 14:05
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You'll see debates again once we have an open primary again. Neither Trump nor Biden benefit from debating their challengers, and neither really wants to debate the other unless the deck is stacked in their favor.
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May 18, 2023 14:07
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Mellow Seas posted:Biden wasn't decorous with Trump in the debates; he attempted to be as assertive as him and the end result was two septuagenarians talking over each other for 90 minutes straight and it was everybody's least favorite thing ever. Well when the other guy is interrupting your story about your son who died of brain cancer because he confused him with your son who is a drug addict I'll rate that as pretty decorous. Like if Biden would have gone with Trump's hosed up dad driving his brother to drink himself to death that might rate as comparable rudeness.
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May 18, 2023 14:22
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DarkCrawler posted:Well when the other guy is interrupting your story about your son who died of brain cancer because he confused him with your son who is a drug addict I'll rate that as pretty decorous. Like if Biden would have gone with Trump's hosed up dad driving his brother to drink himself to death that might rate as comparable rudeness. You are not going to win a muck fight against someone who feels no shame.
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May 18, 2023 14:31
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You can't debate fascism or fascists. The famous Sartre quote on antisemitism is fully applicable here. "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." While one of the two major political parties is captured by (only slightly concealed) fascism, there should be no debates. The only purpose they serve is to legitimize fascism and make money for corporate media.
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May 18, 2023 14:37
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DarkCrawler posted:Well when the other guy is interrupting your story about your son who died of brain cancer because he confused him with your son who is a drug addict I'll rate that as pretty decorous. Like if Biden would have gone with Trump's hosed up dad driving his brother to drink himself to death that might rate as comparable rudeness. I don't think you know how electoral politics in the U.S. work. At all. Being a raging rear end in a top hat only plays into one demographic: GOP primary voters. Anyone else is going to be extremely turned off by it. It's the main reason you have Republican never-Trumpers--it's not that they disagree with what he says, they just disagree with how the message is delivered.
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May 18, 2023 14:38
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:You can't debate fascism or fascists. The famous Sartre quote on antisemitism is fully applicable here. I am going to say something I can't prove so apologies in advance. I agree with Sartre's quote but with Biden/Trump in 2020 it ignores the context. The Trump team wanted Biden to concede to no debates first because they wanted to create a narrative that Biden was afraid to face Trump and set the narrative that Biden's mind wasn't all there and get to call Biden a coward for not debating. The national media would of loved the chance to generate cycles on Biden's failure to debate. Similarly, that's why some form of debate is going to happen. Why give your opponent a free avenue of attack?
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May 18, 2023 14:43
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Ershalim posted:I'm pretty sure trump pre-emptively said he wasn't going to go to any. Which is probably best case scenario for both of our great grand presidents, tbh. Trump has said he's not going to debate any primary challengers, just as Biden isn't going to debate RFK Jr. or Williamson. (The spreads between the frontrunners for both parties & their nearest competitors are fairly similar, although very few Democratic primary polls have been released to date.) Neither campaign has talked about general-election debates, although I've seen pundits suggest that Biden shouldn't platform Trump by debating him; I mentioned that earlier itt. pencilhands posted:Hot take: debates are mostly stupid anyways. Everyone involved already knows what the candidates think, they’re just an opportunity for someone to trip up or score a sick own that becomes a soundbite. No one on earth is sitting there giving a crap about either candidate’s opinion on anything This is exactly what pundits are saying to pave the way for eradicating them. As I said upthread, I'm disappointed with this, but that's bc I remember the glory days of presidential-candidate debates. But I also recognize how watered-down & meaningless they've become since run by corporate media. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 14:56 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 14:52
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Judgy Fucker posted:I don't think you know how electoral politics in the U.S. work. At all. Being a raging rear end in a top hat alone does not work. GOP politicians also deliver on the culture war (where being a raging rear end in a top hat is an important part), which is all that matters for anyone voting for GOP who isn't rich (who also get what they want). If you achieve any concrete things, being a raging rear end in a top hat is a huge advantage and if you doubt that, you don't know how electoral politics in the U.S. work At all. Mooseontheloose posted:You are not going to win a muck fight against someone who feels no shame. This guy walked out of a 60 minute interview, he isn't some sort of an unbeatable black engine who can't be made to lose his poo poo. Really the opposite.
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May 18, 2023 14:53
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1659181109119184896 Yeah, it's kind of old-timey (like, older than me) but it used to be somewhat common in the manner of boys being named after their dads. Totally unsurprising that Pelosi wants Schiff to get Feinstein's seat; I've thought all along that the CA Dem party will find a way to have him replace Feinstein in spite of her being one of the state's first female senators. But man, given Feinstein's current condition, they're really taking a leap of faith in figuring they can prop her up & pretend that she's functional for another year (when the campaign to replace her will ramp up), or in hoping that her body won't continue to melt at the rate her mind has. eta: The best suggestion I've heard for Newsom to get out of his self-created jam is to have him appoint retired senator Barbara Boxer a placeholder for the remainder of Feinstein's term. (Haven't read the Politico piece yet so I don't know if it mentions this.) Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:08 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 15:05
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DarkCrawler posted:Being a raging rear end in a top hat alone does not work. GOP politicians also deliver on the culture war (where being a raging rear end in a top hat is an important part), which is all that matters for anyone voting for GOP who isn't rich (who also get what they want). If you achieve any concrete things, being a raging rear end in a top hat is a huge advantage and if you doubt that, you don't know how electoral politics in the U.S. work At all. I think your impression of American politics is coming through too much of an internet filter. A huge majority of Americans prefer that their politicians not make low-blow person attacks. Yes - Trump does it. He’s also very unpopular, even with having backwards American attitudes on trans issues, racism and xenophobia working toward his benefit. And he was ineffective in office, as far as achieving his party’s goals went (except insofar as “doing nothing” is a Republican goal, which they are very good at achieving.) Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 15:26 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 15:22
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DeSantis is officially declaring his presidential campaign in a few days. He is going to have an official announcement next week, then a large series of fundraisers with major donors on May 24th through May 26th, and have his first major public event right after memorial day in his hometown of Dunedin, Florida. DeSantis is planning a minor revamp to his strategy (which now includes the bold decision to try and win some of the first 12 primaries) by attacking Trump more directly as someone "trying to build a brand" who is "obsessed with virtue signaling online" instead of accomplishing conservative goals like himself. He has also rolled out several endorsements from politicians in New Hampshire and Iowa and plans to visit New Hampshire shortly. https://twitter.com/marianne_levine/status/1659177009417707521 quote:Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis plans to officially enter the 2024 presidential race next week, as the Republican gathers top fundraisers in Miami, according to two people familiar with the plans.
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May 18, 2023 15:23
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Can we outlaw official announcements of the date you plan to announce you will formally declare you are running
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May 18, 2023 15:27
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The sheer  of Ron loving DeSantis accusing literally any other human being of being too interested in virtue signaling is breathtaking, and for that reason it would absolutely work against anyone except Donald J. Trump, a man who will always go lower than you to win.
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May 18, 2023 15:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:DeSantis is officially declaring his presidential campaign in a few days. There's just so much  here. It's precious. Like watching a five year old pretend to be an astronaut. Go get 'em tiger, you'll reach the stars if you jump hard enough and you'll absolutely win over Trump by talking about policy.
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May 18, 2023 15:40
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Feel like Trump has already accomplished building a brand at this point
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May 18, 2023 15:42
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Can we outlaw official announcements of the date you plan to announce you will formally declare you are running Oh please god. I am so incredibly tired of the media lapping up meta-announcements and enthusiastically chomping on the most obvious bait.
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May 18, 2023 15:45
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haveblue posted:Feel like Trump has already accomplished building a brand at this point Yeah it is frustrating because as unpopular as he is overall, so many R voters are going to fall in line once he's nominated because at the end of the day they do agree with everything he says. Unless Trump suddenly croaks or DeSantis pulls some god-tier politicizing off to dethrone him, but at this exact point both of those things seem unlikely. I am curious to see how this goes for DeSantis, like if the press is going to immediately put out a bazillion "wow oh my god so presidential!!" puff pieces right after he announces or what.
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May 18, 2023 15:46
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pencilhands posted:Hot take: debates are mostly stupid anyways. Everyone involved already knows what the candidates think, they’re just an opportunity for someone to trip up or score a sick own that becomes a soundbite. No one on earth is sitting there giving a crap about either candidate’s opinion on anything "Can the candidate handle being on TV for two hours without tripping up or eating a sick own that turns into a soundbite?" is a question worth answering, though. Everyone knows the candidates' positions, but it's still good to hold their feet to the fire a bit and see if they can actually defend those positions without saying something stupid. It's not like we can count on reporters to do that on their own. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:DeSantis is planning a minor revamp to his strategy (which now includes the bold decision to try and win some of the first 12 primaries) by attacking Trump more directly as someone "trying to build a brand" who is "obsessed with virtue signaling online" instead of accomplishing conservative goals like himself. He has also rolled out several endorsements from politicians in New Hampshire and Iowa and plans to visit New Hampshire shortly. Are we sure DeSantis isn't making a sacrificial play here, giving himself up for Trump to eviscerate him in grand fashion so Donnie can prove he's still got it? It doesn't make any sense for DeSantis to be making that kind of personal sacrifice, but on the other hand, this is such an obviously bad strategy here, I can't even wrap my head around it. Taking a tactic like this against Trump is like begging to be ritually slaughtered live on stage. I can't believe he could possibly line up anyone who could tell him that it's a good idea to do this. The guy whose best-known policy accomplishment is bullying Disney for opposing transphobic laws is going to go out there and claim that the guy who put three justices on the Supreme Court is more obsessed with "virtue signaling" than policy accomplishments?
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May 18, 2023 15:58
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Montana has struck a blow for international data security by enacting the country's first state-level ban on TikTok.quote:The governor today also directed the state’s chief information officer and executive agency directors to prohibit the use of all social media applications tied to foreign adversaries on state equipment and for state business in Montana. A state-level ban on a specific application is both technically unenforceable (app store companies have already said as much) and likely to be overturned in court, as not only a First Amendment violation but as a restraint of interstate commerce that should be within the purview of the federal government instead.
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May 18, 2023 15:58
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Main Paineframe posted:I can't believe he could possibly line up anyone who could tell him that it's a good idea to do this. The guy whose best-known policy accomplishment is bullying Disney for opposing transphobic laws is going to go out there and claim that the guy who put three justices on the Supreme Court is more obsessed with "virtue signaling" than policy accomplishments? Someone earlier suggested basically anyone running against Trump is doing so so they can attempt to be his vice president after he gets nominated (despite how badly that worked out for Chris Christie). But unlike in 2016 I would assume anyone running against Trump now is going to be forever-shunned by Trump's base no matter how much they suck up to him after.
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May 18, 2023 16:04
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Neo Rasa posted:Yeah it is frustrating because as unpopular as he is overall, so many R voters are going to fall in line once he's nominated because at the end of the day they do agree with everything he says. Unless Trump suddenly croaks or DeSantis pulls some god-tier politicizing off to dethrone him, but at this exact point both of those things seem unlikely. Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz stated as such in 2016! They didn't disagree with his policy, just the way he was putting it. I wish I could find the clip but it was during the whole Muslim ban thing. quote:Are we sure DeSantis isn't making a sacrificial play here, giving himself up for Trump to eviscerate him in grand fashion so Donnie can prove he's still got it? If your DeSantis this is your time. You don't know what is going to happen in 4 years, what's going to change, and this type of politicking has an incredibly short half life. You aren't going to get Joe Biden to run against in 2028 and clearly thinks his I am a young viral alpha male thing will play well against Biden. My guess is he feel his only opportunity is now.
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May 18, 2023 16:17
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DarkCrawler posted:This guy walked out of a 60 minute interview, he isn't some sort of an unbeatable black engine who can't be made to lose his poo poo. Really the opposite. Nobody is saying he is. He loses his poo poo in nearly every interview and debate. The point is that he won't engage, and if you force him to, he'll just eject. And doing so gives him no meaningful consequences. Trying to hold his feet to the fire is less than pointless. Nobody is saying he's good at it or invulnerable. The point earlier about him being like a child who's decided they're not going to lose the argument is accurate.
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May 18, 2023 16:25
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I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a number of people are having trouble recognizing a bad faith troll who's going to stop posting for a bit and come back as if nothing happened when they get owned .
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May 18, 2023 16:27
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Trump is a bully. And like every other bully I have ever known, the only language they understand is power. To defeat Trump, you have to shut him up. Either the system shuts him up, or you beat the ever living poo poo out of him, or put him in the ground.
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May 18, 2023 16:29
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Mooseontheloose posted:You are not going to win a muck fight against someone who feels no shame. It's not about making him feel shame. It's about getting people to laugh at him. That's the only way chuds actually feel owned. Look at the 2011 White House correspondent dinner when Obama roasted the hell out of Trump and everyone was laughing at him. You can just see how angry Trump was it was fantastic.
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May 18, 2023 16:30
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ESPN is backing out of its cable television exclusivity and planning to sell itself directly to consumers via streaming. They also argue that cable TV is dying and that staying exclusively on cable is a non-option in the long run, so they need to prepare an alternative business model. This is the first major blow against cable TV bundling and going to cause major damage to the cable TV model. Sports and ESPN bundling was often one of the major reasons to keep a cable TV subscription because you couldn't get local games or the various ESPN channels live through other mediums. https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1659186443229560832
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May 18, 2023 16:57
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:ESPN is backing out of its cable television exclusivity and planning to sell itself directly to consumers via streaming. They also argue that cable TV is dying and that staying exclusively on cable is a non-option in the long run, so they need to prepare an alternative business model.
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May 18, 2023 17:04
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Mooseontheloose posted:My guess is he feel his only opportunity is now. DeSantis is also term-limited from running for governor again (unless he somehow gets the legislature to change that), so his only options to continue a career in politics are to either become President or swipe a Senate seat from Batboy or Marco Rubio. Once he's out as governor, he's basically limited to working for think tanks, since pissing off Disney probably means that he's never going to get a cushy corporate board seat or lobbying gig.
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May 18, 2023 17:05
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:DeSantis is officially declaring his presidential campaign in a few days. Well, if they actually book the hotel successfully, they've already got a leg up on Trump.
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May 18, 2023 17:16
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Epiphyte posted:Seems like this will also hurt ESPN as well, they benefit greatly from being automatically included with 95% of cable packages, even for people who don't give a drat about sports Who has cable packages other than old people? I haven't had cable TV in well over a decade at this point. Hell, even my own boomer parents cut the cord last year and only use streaming now.
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May 18, 2023 17:18
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