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Endorph posted:streaming is actually moving to youtube a bit over time, twitch keeps scaring people off They also infamously hilariously burned twitch in the first owl deal to the point the guy at twitch who negotiated was sacked for misconduct over it. It was such a bum rap it's permanently hurt eSports rights deals as a whole.
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May 18, 2023 13:30
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Herstory Begins Now posted:They had some very capable, passionate people working on it but they also had a big issue with chronically penny pinching wrt expenses and some other issues with some nepo hires getting put into high places in the backend of esports division. With Overwatch (and later CoD league) they also stupidly got very greedy with where to stream it. First they really thought they could just force everyone to watch MLG cuz they owned it. Then they relented and signed a twitch deal. But then after that they signed a deal with YouTube gaming, which honestly killed the whole thing.
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May 18, 2023 13:37
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Kanos posted:There's already been a bunch of people pointing out that if you make a fun PvE game you don't need a treadmill, but if you wanted to do gameplay loot, you don't even need to do poo poo like Tracer with a rocket launcher or D.Va with a sniper rifle or whatever, you can just rip off TF2 and have characters have variant weapons that operate mostly the same do cool things with their existing kit. Give Tracer a gun that makes her blink cause explosions. Give Reaper a slug shotgun that works at longer ranges but does less damage. Give Winston a gun that makes his dome electrocute enemies in it to death. hey this sounds actually fun and now i'm also upset PVE is cancelled, even tho it probably wouldn't be this, ty
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May 18, 2023 15:03
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Overwatch 2: Noob Heroes, Few Maps, No Mode.
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May 18, 2023 15:07
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Kanos posted:There's already been a bunch of people pointing out that if you make a fun PvE game you don't need a treadmill, but if you wanted to do gameplay loot, you don't even need to do poo poo like Tracer with a rocket launcher or D.Va with a sniper rifle or whatever, you can just rip off TF2 and have characters have variant weapons that operate mostly the same do cool things with their existing kit. Give Tracer a gun that makes her blink cause explosions. Give Reaper a slug shotgun that works at longer ranges but does less damage. Give Winston a gun that makes his dome electrocute enemies in it to death. I now imagine giving Tracer a baseball bat and ball, let the OW2 mains know the horrors of the scout's Sandman. Or hell, give Junkrat an undetonated potato masher grenade. Or Pharah a garden shovel that hurts really hard when she's airborne. Or Mercy a healing stick she can huff fumes from during Oktoberfest. ... drat I should get back into TF2. Then I can stop imagining OW heroes wearing hats of all kinds.
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May 18, 2023 15:14
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With PvE design they can be a lot looser with balance, only having to keep options/characters from being wildly overpowered compared to each other or so pitiful they're never worth taking even as weird contrarian picks. No PvP balance, no fairness, AI doesn't complain in forums. So you can give Hammond options and upgrade tracks and loot for bigger guns, or big spikes on his ball, or a longer chain or bouncier ball. You can give every character fun variables for their iconic abilities or interesting alternatives, like Reaper gets life steal and poisonous nano swarm shotgun shells or something, or double evil hollow point shredders that sacrifice that survivability boost for more damage. You can give everybody some equipment slots and little rising percentages and numbers for any stat you want. Let me build the fastest, crowd smashiest hamster around and I'm interested. You can even use old assets here. Give Doomfist an equipment slot for his fist that lets him play a bit like his OW1 incarnation but in PvE only. Robots won't get mad about stuns. It's weird the OW team didn't see a path forward. Blizzard's brand for a long time was picking up an idea that was already popular and polishing the hell out of it. Co-op shooter has 3-4 genres and dozens of entries to uh, lift inspiration from. I find it hard to believe the engine was holding them back since people were satisfied with the OW1 PvE events. Expand those. Bigger maps(the holiday ones are just walked off chunks of existing maps), wave spawns and set piece events as you move to spots on the map. What was the true hurdle here, other than running on a skeleton crew while pocketing cash shop profits?
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May 18, 2023 15:58
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i'm partial to the idea of a hades-like progression where you pick among random paths for your character as you advance through a replayable campaign or whatever so at the end you have some insanelyh stupid vampire savior screen clearing bullshit
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May 18, 2023 16:07
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The team just couldn’t do co-op PvE, too hard. Too focused on hitting their weekly sexual assault KPIs
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May 18, 2023 16:12
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heard u like girls posted:Overwatch 2: Noob Heroes, Few Maps, No Mode. no abilities, fox girl only, final point on dorado
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May 18, 2023 16:31
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Assepoester posted:Since OW2 was released as a F2P "upgrade" to OW1 I can't really say it's anywhere as terrible as if they had, say, charged $40 for it, then strung us along, promising that the big Diablo-style coop mode was just around the corner all this time... only to finally drop it. it is still pretty lovely that they straight up deleted the game people paid for
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May 18, 2023 17:09
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I still personally suspect Overwatch 2 was released and titled as such to be able to say it's a separate product in order to be able to uproot all the existing monetization and replace it with the current system, since I imagine OW1's model was not sustainable to begin with on top of growing disdain and legal problems with loot boxes. Edit: actually eh, I've seen B2P games relaunch as F2P without a 2 and just add a tagline line "Legends" or "Reloaded" or some poo poo so I dunno. It's all perplexing. It's otherwise historically identical to Blizzard's expansion packs - Brood War, Frozen Throne, Reaper of Souls, and like every WoW and SC2 expansion was a significant paradigm shift in design on top of whatever new content added. Offering the legacy option is a nice gesture but ultimately would be a waste of time and resources I think. Think of how bad queue times or match quality would be if OW1 was still up. I don't pine for 20min queues to shoot at barriers for the entire match with and against players from 5 different skill brackets. novaSphere fucked around with this message at 17:35 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 17:31
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Assepoester posted:Since OW2 was released as a F2P "upgrade" to OW1 I can't really say it's anywhere as terrible as if they had, say, charged $40 for it, then strung us along, promising that the big Diablo-style coop mode was just around the corner all this time... only to finally drop it. Its worse because its a free upgrade to get you to pay them every other month for their battle pass
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May 18, 2023 17:31
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Doomykins posted:It's weird the OW team didn't see a path forward. Blizzard's brand for a long time was picking up an idea that was already popular and polishing the hell out of it. Co-op shooter has 3-4 genres and dozens of entries to uh, lift inspiration from. I find it hard to believe the engine was holding them back since people were satisfied with the OW1 PvE events. Expand those. Bigger maps(the holiday ones are just walked off chunks of existing maps), wave spawns and set piece events as you move to spots on the map. What was the true hurdle here, other than running on a skeleton crew while pocketing cash shop profits? They probably had several paths forward, I'm convinced this is an order that came from above. An OW2 PvE mode simply won't be as profitable as other things that Blizzard could put those resources towards, and so it got axed. The Overwatch team had to fight for having the original game be released as a one-time purchase (instead of having paid DLC or implementing a MOBA-like F2P model). The loss of Kaplan and other Blizzard executives like Morhaime meant there wasn't anyone left to champion these more "old-school" business models when dealing with the money people. Not trying to put those guys on a pedestal as some holy figures that could do no wrong, but... it is plain to see that the money people much preferred other business models.
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May 18, 2023 17:43
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ErrEff posted:An OW2 PvE mode simply won't be as profitable as other things The order to cancel it definitely came from some executive-level producer, but I have to disagree with the other part. In my experience if a game offers both PvP and PvE content and the PvE is actually any decent, the population for PvE will always dwarf that of PvP even if the PvPers are the loudest ones on reddit or official forums. The Archives events during their debut had the largest engagement of any other seasonal event in OW1's history. It's more likely that they kept spinning their wheels in the mud and failed to actually make it compelling enough to play as its own game mode that would stand independently from PvP and kept getting bad feedback during playtests etc. The Blizzcon demo was a fun little dungeon run but also obviously a curated vertical slice made specifically for the event - this happens all the time. I worked on an unannounced game in a similar genre, and while it just never quite came together, we also had a curated demo to try and impress potential investors but ultimately unceremoniously cancelled it before it sunk our studio. 4P co-op games have been struggling for a long time, too. Darktide didn't have a great launch, Back 4 Blood fizzled out quick, Redfall fell flat on its face, and other offerings have either been languishing in early access or have been largely abandoned with a tiny hardcore userbase clinging to it. Deep Rock Galactic is the only recent 4p co-op shooter I can think of that's seen any success and continues to thrive. I'm not necessarily trying to defend Blizzard here because the way they fumbled Overwatch as a general thing is loving remarkable, but making games is real loving hard and projects fail more often than you think; they're just not the high-profile clusterfucks like Overwatch has been. I also imagine even more people on the OW team will quit over this and make it even more difficult  I feel for the individuals just trying to make something cool and hold down their jobs but I have nothing but contempt for the company itself and the shitbags in leadership who put everyone in this situation.
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May 18, 2023 19:37
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So has tf2 outlasted another game?
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May 18, 2023 19:40
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Maybe if the 4P co-op releases were good, that wouldn't happen. There's a reason L4D still gets trajectory, and the voxel space dwarf indie game outlasts all of these triple A trade attempts. We're tired of perpetual baked in forever grinds. Just make a game fun and unobtrusive to keep playing.
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May 18, 2023 19:44
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Nanomashoes posted:So has tf2 outlasted another game? The same game twice
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May 18, 2023 19:45
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Honestly the moment that Blizzard talked about the co-op campaign as "PvE" it was destined to never happen. Like lmao
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May 18, 2023 19:48
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My gripe with 4P co-op is how many of them borrowed the L4D feature of having specialized enemies that can stunlock someone until they die unless somebody helps out. Seemed like the worst possible way to force cooperation and I’m surprised so many games went on with it.
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May 18, 2023 19:49
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Well because it forces cooperation in co-op games that might team you with complete strangers who wouldn't give a gently caress about you otherwise.
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May 18, 2023 20:00
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Herstory Begins Now posted:killing OW's grassroots pro scene was one of the stupidest esports decisions ever made. firing the beloved talent instead of paying them a bit more was probably one of the second stupidest esports decisions ever made. They never learned their lesson from Starcraft 2. They killed their grassroots esports by wanting to control it and take their cut, and they also killed their mod scene by making it so they have all rights to anything people make with the modding tools, basically to avoid what happened with DOTA. Warcraft 3 modding resulted in new genres. Starcraft 2 modding, despite having much more powerful modding tools, resulted in nothing. Now they just don't create proper modding tools, and they lockdown the esports even more. They doubled down on it.
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May 18, 2023 20:09
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The Bee posted:Maybe if the 4P co-op releases were good, that wouldn't happen. There's a reason L4D still gets trajectory, and the voxel space dwarf indie game outlasts all of these triple A trade attempts. Well sure, I agree with you in that I'm also tired of grinding challenges, battle passes, and rotating FOMO/dark design storefronts with $20 skins in every single loving game now, but "just make a game fun" is a nebulous and subjective statement and is really, really loving hard to get right and often comes down to luck more than anything. AAA will always have to carry the taint of being a product that needs to make money vs. indie passion projects too. That is to say; I think we're on the same page and jaded as gently caress as we watch the decline of AAA in real time. I'm also a weirdo that actually really likes OW2's core gameplay despite its faults, and I've also seen and experienced similar pitfalls in my career as we're seeing currently with OW/OW2, so I have some sympathy for the devs because I have an idea of what lead to this, how it must feel right now, and what it's like to get your game's rear end blasted across the internet. Brendan Rodgers posted:Now they just don't create proper modding tools, and they lockdown the esports even more. They doubled down on it. I will say there are some loving crazy things possible within the Workshop but they really need to allow players to make their own maps, even if it's with prefab blocks like Doom's SnapMap I mean, look at this. It's more a proof of concept than a full-fledged thing but this is the kind of wacky poo poo people make in the workshop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9YvYA5PHY0 novaSphere fucked around with this message at 20:26 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 20:09
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novaSphere posted:I still personally suspect Overwatch 2 was released and titled as such to be able to say it's a separate product in order to be able to uproot all the existing monetization and replace it with the current system, since I imagine OW1's model was not sustainable to begin with on top of growing disdain and legal problems with loot boxes. if they gave any kind of a gently caress about queue times or match quality they wouldn't have 20 game modes to begin with. note that's not to say that literally no one at blizzard cares about those things, but that clearly is not the priority of whoever is making the decisions. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 21:30 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 21:26
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What's the best OW2 comp for mythic+ dungeons?
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May 18, 2023 21:40
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bagrada posted:What's the best OW2 comp for mythic+ dungeons? Zerg rush ez kekekeke
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May 18, 2023 21:50
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Maybe now PvE is dead the dev team can focus on what fans really want: an Overwatch dating sim where you can buy limited new outfits for your best girlfriend,
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May 19, 2023 01:19
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novaSphere posted:Well sure, I agree with you in that I'm also tired of grinding challenges, battle passes, and rotating FOMO/dark design storefronts with $20 skins in every single loving game now, but "just make a game fun" is a nebulous and subjective statement and is really, really loving hard to get right and often comes down to luck more than anything. AAA will always have to carry the taint of being a product that needs to make money vs. indie passion projects too. Honestly, that's part of the sad thing. A PvE campaign would have leaned into the best things about OW2. I wish the game got it, and I legit think it would have enough replayability to avoid the curse a lot of other 4-player co-op shooters fall into.
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May 19, 2023 04:24
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I just experienced the best LW pull. 4th round of kings row, our cart is like 30 feet from winning the game in overtime. Their whole team waited to engage like pros. Orisa comes spinning in at top speed. Gonna touch just in time. Nope, pulled at half health. Right before she made contact. At least the devs gave us lifeweaver.
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May 19, 2023 04:45
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oversimps btfo'd lmao
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May 19, 2023 05:19
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headcase posted:I just experienced the best LW pull. 4th round of kings row, our cart is like 30 feet from winning the game in overtime. Their whole team waited to engage like pros. Orisa comes spinning in at top speed. Gonna touch just in time. I won my first game with a lifeweaver last night. The notable thing was about halfway through I noticed he was healing me when he had full ult, the enemy team was all dead and ana had nothing. I said "We not letting ana charge her ult today?". The guy just slowly shoot his characters head for a "no" and then continued to only ever pull me away from confirming kills while telling me i'm being too aggro. I have no idea how the gently caress I won that game.
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May 19, 2023 10:45
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lifeweaver is the hero overwatch 2 deserves
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May 19, 2023 10:54
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If you did every single weekly challenge, every single week since OW2 came out then now is the week when you'd finally get 1900 coins. Enough coins to buy one of these extremely high quality premium legendary skins that were added in OW2:   
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May 19, 2023 13:32
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What was the campaign mode supposed to be? Like, Destiny? Or a proper game with levels and stuff? And would you be shooting actual people or just robots?
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May 19, 2023 13:58
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Joke Miriam posted:What was the campaign mode supposed to be? Like, Destiny? Or a proper game with levels and stuff? It's supposed to be Left 4 Dead but with levels up and special abilities.
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May 19, 2023 13:59
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LoL that starship troopers extraction is a best seller on steam while blizzard is like there is no market, it’s too much work, not enough money. I always figured that PvE wasn’t going to be exactly what they showed, but I thought it would be like early access. This level only works with these heroes and there is only one level while we develop it, for example. Instead they took the game around back and shot it in the head.
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May 19, 2023 14:25
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Lord Packinham posted:LoL that starship troopers extraction is a best seller on steam while blizzard is like there is no market, it’s too much work, not enough money. Yeah, it helps that the game nails the absurdity vibe the original film reportedly went for (I didnt watch it, bought in because "hell yeah I'm ready to get hosed on by bugs as an expendable soldier"). This even carries into the quit screen, too: 
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May 19, 2023 15:04
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widespread posted:Yeah, it helps that the game nails the absurdity vibe the original film reportedly went for (I didnt watch it, bought in because "hell yeah I'm ready to get hosed on by bugs as an expendable soldier"). Does it incorporate the best Starship Troopers movie, Starship Troopers 2?
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May 19, 2023 15:11
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edit: nm, too far off topic for an Overwatch thread probably
Zephro fucked around with this message at 15:42 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 15:31
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Lord Packinham posted:LoL that starship troopers extraction is a best seller on steam while blizzard is like there is no market, it’s too much work, not enough money. I've rolled my eyes until they were strained at their producers claiming they have to put in the hard work to deliver quality for the pvp part of the game, which they did by taking a three year vacation from OW1 and dripfeeding content drops to the OW2 release. There's no way they actually claimed the market doesn't exist, right? That's insanely stupid. Darktide has already righted itself and I guess the super geniuses at DRG know something every AAA doesn't. Back 4 Blood left the market in the predictable pattern of monetization and run the devs are known for.
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May 19, 2023 15:57
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That's not true, they  changed some numbers every few months. I wonder if they just let random interns do it, for all the good it did.
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