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AreWeDrunkYet posted:
No, but the question would be "Why are we giving aid to Ukraine?" Asking "Why are we in Ukraine?" implies that we are actively participating in the conflict, and backs up the narrative that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is actually a war against NATO and is protecting the slavic peoples from intrusion by the west. It this person actually believes that we are engaged in open conflict with Russia at this time, they are an unserious fool who doesn't need to be engaged with. What's more likely is that they are using this framing in tacit support of Russia's narrative of this war and creating a false impression that it is the United States and NATO who are engaging in dangerous brinksmanship and escalation.
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May 18, 2023 13:52
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Is it controversial that the US has made a significant material investment in the war in Ukraine?
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mlmp08 posted:While it is true that there's an argument to be made that strat bombing of Japan in particular was effective, it was also monstrous and brutally indiscriminate. And the allied submarine campaign against Japan's shipping and troop ships in WW2 is maybe highly rated, but still underrated, given how little play it gets in most people's discussions of WW2. The same people who argue that strategic bombing was evil and that the nazis and japanese were victims who would never do anything like that are the same people who would say that the Allied Submarine Campaign was also evil because it starved people. Which to be fair they've got a point: Bombing people from the air, or starving them of food, people are going to die.
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May 18, 2023 13:57
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A.o.D. posted:I kind of stopped dead at "Why are we in Ukraine?"
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May 18, 2023 13:58
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Nessus posted:We aren't; the Ukrainians are, and so are the Russians, without invitation. Once the latter depart then all will be well for everyone, except, of course, the dead and wounded. They could probably even work out a deal to keep Crimea if they demilitarized it (of artillery and so on, anyway) and were willing to cough up some dough and return the abducted children. The Ukrainians are buying Groceries on Europa? With the Russians?!?
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May 18, 2023 13:59
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Fivemarks posted:The same people who argue that strategic bombing was evil and that the nazis and japanese were victims who would never do anything like You are creating quite the interesting figure there. I think the incendiary bombing of Japan, Dresden, were pretty loving horrible (I don’t really use th word evil), but I would never say the Nazis and Imperial Japanese were victims who wouldn’t do the same if they could have effectively. And submarines nailing the merchant marine isn’t really the same as deciding to target and firebomb occupied civilian housing.
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May 18, 2023 14:02
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A.o.D. posted:No, but the question would be "Why are we giving aid to Ukraine?" How is funding/supplying one side of a war not active participation? It seems obvious that the implication is not that there are active boots on the ground (outside of probably some intelligence folks), but that the US is a stakeholder in the conflict.
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May 18, 2023 14:03
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mlmp08 posted:You are creating quite the interesting figure there. I mean, when you bring up Dresden, the problem there is that it was a legitimate military target. But in the post war years its been blown up by the fash into being a horrible thing done on ap urely civilian target with the death toll for it vastly blown out of proportion to what it actually was.
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May 18, 2023 14:07
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There being a militaty target isn’t some sort of victory. Bombing countless civilians but managing to score a hit on the magic area does not absolve you of crimes.
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May 18, 2023 14:10
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A.o.D. posted:The Ukrainians are buying Groceries on Europa? With the Russians?!? The ChatGPT rendering of Henry Kissinger will say that victory is inevitable for Russia and if John Fetterman expects to beat Tucker Carlson, he'll need a better answer than "lol, lmao. just walk away" Fivemarks posted:I mean, when you bring up Dresden, the problem there is that it was a legitimate military target. But in the post war years its been blown up by the fash into being a horrible thing done on ap urely civilian target with the death toll for it vastly blown out of proportion to what it actually was.
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May 18, 2023 14:10
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Nessus posted:At current rates of progress, in 2028 Ukraine will have a lunar colony for displaced people from the eastern Oblasts and will be sending out Raiden and Blade Wolf to fight off the latest Russian charge featuring a new batch of authentic and unstoppable cannons and cavalry backed by Iranian drone bombs. Hell, Vonnegut's come out and said "no, Dresden is not as bad as I said it was, my account was colored by my personal experiences. Do not listen when the fascist apologists try to say that Dresden was a war crime."
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May 18, 2023 14:14
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Nessus posted:At current rates of progress, in 2028 Ukraine will have a lunar colony for displaced people from the eastern Oblasts and will be sending out Raiden and Blade Wolf to fight off the latest Russian charge featuring a new batch of authentic and unstoppable cannons and cavalry backed by Iranian drone bombs. lol I was about to reply with "Vonnegut was Fash? news to me"
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May 18, 2023 14:14
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:How is funding/supplying one side of a war not active participation? It seems obvious that the implication is not that there are active boots on the ground (outside of probably some intelligence folks), but that the US is a stakeholder in the conflict. That's because active participation means shooting bullets and dropping bombs. Once upon a time the state of diplomacy was that if you were powerful enough, you defined even trading with an enemy as an act of war. This is what led Napoleon (partly) to invade Russia. These days, being an active participant means, well, being an active participant. Also, that is not the obvious implication. I've already detailed how saying "Why are we in Ukraine" aligns with Russian disinformation regarding the west's involvement in Ukraine. If this guy isn't a complete idiot, he knows exactly what he's doing when choosing those words. These guys a living off of carefully crafted bullshit, and there's a near zero chance that they're not a fellow traveller with dipshits like Gonzalo Lira, if just less obvious in their inclinations. edit: Let me put it another way. I am fixing a car. The Snap-on dealer comes by, sells me a ratchet and throws in a few sockets for free. He is not fixing my car. I am. Ukraine is fighting this war. We are not. They are active participants in this war. We are assisting. We are not dictating policy or engaging in combat. A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 14:18 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 14:15
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:How is funding/supplying one side of a war not active participation? It seems obvious that the implication is not that there are active boots on the ground (outside of probably some intelligence folks), but that the US is a stakeholder in the conflict. This wasn't what the article was arguing at all, though; the title was a misdirect. It was a remake of the classic "NATO caused this" argument.
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May 18, 2023 14:20
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I think I just have a different standard when it comes to the USAF saying explicitly that they firebombed civilian centers for the purpose of killing and unhousing civilians, to compel them not to work. Thinking that is abhorrent in no way defends fascism and nazis and the Imperial Japanese government.
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May 18, 2023 14:21
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lightpole posted:Even with convoys US losses were staggering. Logistics is very hard, the US dedicated an enormous amount of resources and accepted large losses to get it done. To put a human scale on the losses, the US Merchant Mariner's memorial is based on a photo taken by the U Boat that sank the ship and left the survivors to die, alone, in the middle of the ocean. It's one of the most haunting monuments I've ever seen, with the water lapping at the hand reaching up out of the water as the incoming tide pulls it under the waves  Definitely something to see in person if you're ever up near Battery Park, descriptions don't do it justice. And that's just one instance among thousands of similar stories in a microcosm of a single conflagration. The human scale of the individual horrors experienced by everybody in war breaks my brain even just trying to extrapolate meaning to this most recent conflict. The hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been lost due to Russia's invasion, the millions of lives forever upended, all because of a single despot and his imagined grandeur of a long dead empire. 
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May 18, 2023 14:21
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German Tanks were really good on paper, but vastly underperformed in combat. The myths around them come from memoirs- when you are getting shot at, it is always the scariest poo poo you can imagine. Acoorsing to memoirs, more Big Cats were run into by US tankers than were every built. The myths were reinforced by the glut of memoirs by Nazis to reframe their image post war. Read any of those old black cover memoirs that had vague names like "Panzer Ace" or "Tank Slayer", and you will be so astounded at the attempts to bullshit or lie for glory. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong- it's not my particular of study. Related- myths of ww2 armor https://youtu.be/bNjp_4jY8pY
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May 18, 2023 14:21
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bulletsponge13 posted:German Tanks were really good on paper, but vastly underperformed in combat. The myths around them come from memoirs- when you are getting shot at, it is always the scariest poo poo you can imagine. Acoorsing to memoirs, more Big Cats were run into by US tankers than were every built. The myths were reinforced by the glut of memoirs by Nazis to reframe their image post war. Read any of those old black cover memoirs that had vague names like "Panzer Ace" or "Tank Slayer", and you will be so astounded at the attempts to bullshit or lie for glory. You could drive a Sherman from Paris to Berlin. You'd be lucky to get a Tiger from the railhead to the front line.
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May 18, 2023 14:27
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I don't get how bombing a city that has numerous key military factories and is a vital railway junction and supply hub is morally equivalent to german terrorbombing, or any of the poo poo that the japanese got up to . This may be offensive to some, but I'll say it: There's this pernicious idea that, after the Axis Powers spent the 1930's and the early stages of WW2 terrorizing civilians and doing horrible, horrible things, that the moment they're on the backfoot that they deserve to be treated with kid gloves and that their industrial and logistical areas shouldn't be bombed. I fervently don't believe in this, with the exception of the nuclear bombings being unwarranted and more to do with dickwaving at the soviets. Edit: War Sucks, and while you have to follow the rules of war, when you start deliberately trying to handicap yourself, that's when you're actively making sure that the other guy wins. Like the UN Peacekeepers in Bosnia, who's Rules of Engagement basically boiled down to "Sit back and watch he Serbians rape and murder and torture civilians."
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May 18, 2023 14:29
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Nessus posted:At current rates of progress, in 2028 Ukraine will have a lunar colony for displaced people from the eastern Oblasts and will be sending out Raiden and Blade Wolf to fight off the latest Russian charge featuring a new batch of authentic and unstoppable cannons and cavalry backed by Iranian drone bombs. slightly off topic but drat I wish Mother Night was on school reading lists instead of Slaughterhouse Five, the kids these days really need to be forcibly exposed to the full-throated warning about the dangers of redpill irony poison
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May 18, 2023 14:35
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shame on an IGA posted:slightly off topic but drat I wish Mother Night was on school reading lists instead of Slaughterhouse Five, the kids these days really need to be forcibly exposed to the full-throated warning about the dangers of redpill irony poison make the kids read Catcher in the Rye, and then give a report about how insufferable Holden is. Then make them read Blood Meridian.
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May 18, 2023 14:39
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psydude posted:It's one of the most coherent Tankie pieces I've ever read, for sure. But it's all beside the point because it presumes that Russia's foreign policy supercedes that of former Eastern Bloc and Soviet states, which it does not. A key feature of sovereignty is the ability of a country to choose its own associations, and this article puts that aside in the name of apologizing for Russian aggression. I could go on, picking apart some of the points, but that's really the fatal flaw that undercuts any of these kinds of arguments attempting to pin the blame on NATO and the US. It's just a longwinded version of "US did bad thing, so it's not fair unless Russia gets a turn."
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May 18, 2023 14:52
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My literature classes all hated Catcher in the Rye. Sure, was the consensus, Holden has problems. But how many private schools has he attended? The times change and so do we.
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May 18, 2023 15:01
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Fivemarks posted:Hell, Vonnegut's come out and said "no, Dresden is not as bad as I said it was, my account was colored by my personal experiences. Do not listen when the fascist apologists try to say that Dresden was a war crime." Vonnegut took his figures for the Dresden death toll from Irving, who wrote a famous book about it back when he was still considered a serious scholar. Irving took his figures from Goebbels, who literally added a 0 to the official casualty report in order to blast it out as propaganda. 20,000 dead is still bad enough, but Hamburg was much worse.
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May 18, 2023 15:26
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Fivemarks posted:
1. You are strawmanning hard. 2. It’s not “kid gloves” to say making a deliberate decision to firebomb civilian housing is morally abhorrent and isn’t justified just because the enemy also commits warcrimes. The US changed policies on this later for a reason, and it wasn’t just tech, and even poo poo-rear end McNamara knew it was morally reprehensible, even if he was a coward about it and tried to slither out of responsibility. May firebombings were was 100,000 dead civilians in a night or so. 3. We’re probably not going to agree on this, and it’s no longer about Ukraine, so I’ll drop it. Free last words if you want it.
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May 18, 2023 15:27
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fatherboxx posted:It is a shame that people keep getting paid reshuffling the same asinine talking points while pretending that Putin's Russia is a force of nature or a pagan deity that needs sacrifices to be calmed down.
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May 18, 2023 15:31
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karoshi posted:Discord bandit was taking notes of classified information and asking pointed questions, as an IT janitor. Turns out they filed 3 MFRs on him, not two, and still didn't do something more serious about it. https://twitter.com/plunketsubprime/status/1658985561091194880
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May 18, 2023 17:44
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What's a rip? Insane that this guy was clearly doing shady things three separate occassions and no one saw fit to do...anything..about it. Combine that with all the mass shooter-y things he was writing about and it's likely nothing would've been done about it til he went on a rampage, by the trajectory of things here
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May 18, 2023 18:16
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https://twitter.com/TroopsinContact/status/1658997682990628864
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May 18, 2023 18:45
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A.o.D. posted:You could drive a Sherman from Atlanta to Savannah
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May 18, 2023 19:09
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*cough* Mar-a-Lago *cough*
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May 18, 2023 19:13
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bird food bathtub posted:*cough* Mar-a-Lago *cough* Gotta have someplace to turn around in and head back north.
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May 18, 2023 19:23
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Hey, that drive started in Chattenooga. Don't sell it short!
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May 18, 2023 20:55
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I stand corrected. Sherman is always greater
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May 18, 2023 20:56
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HonorableTB posted:What's a rip? Report on Individual Personnel, I presume.
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May 18, 2023 21:24
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Really idiot person report
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May 18, 2023 22:20
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Holy poo poo, I've gone for 18 years not knowing wtf RIP stood for, yet acting like I knew what it did, thank you
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May 18, 2023 22:22
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https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-three-scientists-face-very-serious-accusations-treason-case-2023-05-17/ Arresting your hypersonic weapons scientists on "treason" charges seems quintessentially Russian.
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May 18, 2023 22:31
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AlternateNu posted:https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-three-scientists-face-very-serious-accusations-treason-case-2023-05-17/ Look, we Russians totally blew up that Patriot system with our Kinzal superweapon, that's why we had to immediately arrest everyone who worked on the Kinzal for treason, they made a weapon so strong that now we must disarm ourselves voluntarily to keep it fair
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May 18, 2023 22:37
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AlternateNu posted:https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-three-scientists-face-very-serious-accusations-treason-case-2023-05-17/ Bringing back the sharashkas, one hapless engineer at a time. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn ended up in one because, as close as he could figure, he lied during a survey of prisoners in a labor camp. When asked about his occupation, he listed "theoretical physicist". Mathematician, physicist, what the difference, right? Of course, he kept the lie going to avoid hard labor. A real life example of Mr. Fantastic's spiel from New Vegas. A theoretical degree in physics.
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May 19, 2023 00:22
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I don't suppose people could litigate whether or not war is hell somewhere else?
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May 19, 2023 01:28
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