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I'm sure it's great fun to speculate about all the reasons the party establishment might seek to oppose an AOC presidential run, but is she even all that great a candidate in the first place? Beating Crowley was certainly impressive and unexpected, but she's never actually faced off against a credible Republican opponent, because Crowley's district was an overwhelmingly blue district. She's certainly got a relatively high amount of name recognition for a progressive, but much of the new generation of leftist legislators shares a common weak point: they're representatives sitting in deep-blue districts, where the Dem base alone was more than enough to coast to overwhelming victory in the general election. I think there's decent real reasons to be a bit concerned about having a presidential nominee who's only ever been on the ballot in a D+26 district that went for 77-19 for Hillary in 2016.
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May 19, 2023 20:05
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Mellow Seas posted:"Person who tried to stop something and failed," the commonly accepted definition of "enabler." Person who didn't try to stop. Dems under Pelosi's leadership never made legislating Roe a priority, even when they said they would. It was useful for them to get votes, so actually doing it once they got elected was never in the cards.
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May 19, 2023 20:12
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Main Paineframe posted:I'm sure it's great fun to speculate about all the reasons the party establishment might seek to oppose an AOC presidential run, but is she even all that great a candidate in the first place? Beating Crowley was certainly impressive and unexpected, but she's never actually faced off against a credible Republican opponent, because Crowley's district was an overwhelmingly blue district. However, she's as charismatic as all hell. She's so charismatic that even I used to think she was cool. AOC is also rapidly integrating into the Dem establishment, which could eventually keep her from getting ratfucked. In addition, she's not actually all that left. Republicans will claim any Dem running is a turbo-HiterStalin no matter what they do, so I don't think it actually matters that much exactly where on the center-right to center-left spectrum a Dem candidate sits.
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May 19, 2023 20:18
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Jaxyon posted:Person who didn't try to stop. Now now, there's plenty of blame to go around. Obama rolled over and let the Republicans block his supreme court nominees without much of a fight, and RBG refused to step down because she wanted some storybook retirement where Hillary appointed her replacement, which allowed the Republicans to take the bench seat from her cold dead hands. Pelosi wasn't the only one Edit: Which probably ties in to Push Burrito's post about why no one wants her to run. It wouldn't take a lot of mental gymnastics to blame her for losing 2 Supreme Court spots. Push El Burrito posted:People underplay Hillary a lot for some reason. She has won Gallup's most admired woman poll 22 times. The next highest is Eleanor Roosevelt with 13. For men the highest is Obama and Eisenhower with 12. the_steve fucked around with this message at 20:26 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 20:24
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Baronash posted:No, the original point being made was this: Baronash posted:Correct. As I said previously, there's a relationship between votes and power. I just find it important to actually understand that relationship rather than oversimplifying it into an axiom that has no practical use. If I was talking to a group of people who were enthusiastic about voting for Democrats and wholly uncritical of them I would be making the opposite point. But I'm not, I'm posting here. GlyphGryph posted:I was actively debating whether to put this in the past tense but ultimately figured it didn't matter. e: Since this is USCE and not the thread where I get to do whatever I want I'll lay it out in brief: I am not defending anybody's specific actions, but I am disputing the claim that Democrats are to blame for the repeal of constitutional abortion rights, except insofar as they failed in their election campaigns - which, again, is a different thing from just loving up, hence the original statement, "Nancy Pelosi wasn't carrying Roe and dropped it, it was taken." With the amount of power they were given by our electoral system they had no practical means to stop the repeal of Roe. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 20:30 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 20:24
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Gyges posted:I looks like the list is speaking of aoc, unless she breaks my heart and primaries Gillibrand, NY has good odds of making the list
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May 19, 2023 20:32
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Kalit posted:Do you think the Democratic party can achieve more [lasting] power without getting more votes? Do you think that Republicans will continue maintaining their current level of power if they keep getting less votes? No; yes; cf. viz. Wisconsin gerrymandering and 6-3 control of the SCOTUS
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May 19, 2023 20:33
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I actually thought that the debt ceiling was a uniquely American institution, but apparently Denmark has one as well. Hopefully, the Danish Mitch McConnell ended up as an Electrician instead of politician. https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1659631596574523415
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May 19, 2023 20:41
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I actually thought that the debt ceiling was a uniquely American institution, but apparently Denmark has one as well. Looks like Denmark generally runs surpluses though. One weird trick! The things you can do when you collect 46% of your GDP in tax revenue instead of 26%...
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May 19, 2023 20:46
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Push El Burrito posted:People underplay Hillary a lot for some reason. She has won Gallup's most admired woman poll 22 times. The next highest is Eleanor Roosevelt with 13. For men the highest is Obama and Eisenhower with 12. One thing that threw me off hard back in 2016 was repeated polling that not only did she have more supporters than Bernie, but her support was by and large more enthusiastic. In retrospect I guess it's that Twitter isn't real life and most people weren't as surrounded by "she's unliked and unlikable" as me. A funny thing about Hillary Clinton is that if you're under 45 or so you've spent your entire politically aware life in a world where both political/news sources and general pop culture reference consistently gave her more attention than any other woman in politics and primarily painted her as a shrill ball-busting harridan. Other politically active women got the exact same attacks, but never as intense for as long; like Disney being uniquely painted as "woke" or the NYT being the arch-liberal newspaper, focus matters. Like a lot of right-wing propaganda, it can influence base assumptions even of people who reject the attitudes driving them. For similar reasons, you still hear people rail about her SHEER loving ENTITLEMENT while pointing to shows of ego and ambition that are utterly unremarkable for anyone of any gender maintaining a career in national politics. I mean, it's not like you can't make a lot of solid criticisms about Hillary, and people certainly have, but many otherwise intelligent people prefer to be really mad about the fanon version.
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May 19, 2023 21:08
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Mooseontheloose posted:Sec. Clinton's mouth opened, jaw unhinged, inhuman in shape. Don't stop I'm almost there
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May 19, 2023 21:11
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I actually thought that the debt ceiling was a uniquely American institution, but apparently Denmark has one as well. But does Denmark spend a couple nations worth of GDP and then throw a hissey fit about it's illegal to pay for it unless they raise their debt limit?
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May 19, 2023 21:25
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Mellow Seas posted:Looks like Denmark generally runs surpluses though. One weird trick! Also, political consensus not to be stupid. Back during the financial crisis it looked like Denmark might actually get close to the limit, so parliament doubled it without any fuss. Debt never rose above the original limit and currently isn’t even close to it.
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May 19, 2023 21:27
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cr0y posted:Don't stop I'm almost there "No, No. I repent." Tucker cried, the tears flowing but dry. "Please..." The voices of the crowd echoed in multiple languages. Those that could be made out was some mix of Yiddish, Spanish, and Esperanto. Clinton's eyes blackened for each repeated attempted for forgiveness, no light could escape her pupil, matching the ever growing mouth eating those who displeased her.
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May 19, 2023 21:45
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Mellow Seas posted:
I went back and as far I can tell you were the first person to bring up Pelosi and injected into a conversation not about Pelosi, but first about Feinstein and the about RGB, In between more general comments thag made it sound like you were including them as well. If that's you're only point I really don't know why you've been arguing with me because I never blamed Pelosi for anything
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May 19, 2023 22:17
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I was using Pelosi as a personified stand-in for “the Dems,” as she was the most powerful non-Biden Democrat at the time of the Dobbs decision. Sorry for the confusion…
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May 19, 2023 23:03
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until 1995 the house had a rule that the debt ceiling was just automatically raised by virtue of passing the budget it was explicitly repealed by republicans wanting to grandstand In other words the debt ceiling is a self inflicted wound on many levels, specifically by republicans.
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May 20, 2023 00:41
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Mellow Seas posted:No, but it feels like they're regarded as ogres, or NPCs, almost beyond moral examination. People act like the Democrats are the preschool teachers who are supposed to keep the kids from putting the blocks in their mouths, which seems off kilter to me when the kids putting the blocks in their mouths are 50 year old men holding semiautomatic rifles. Maybe we should speak with them directly. I think they're people who want to kill me and my friends and the Democrats as the people who say they will stop that and often fail at it. They are 50 year old men holding semiautomatic rifles and the Democrats call them good friends who make mistakes. Edit: God the gun comment just sticks in my craw. They've been adults causing havoc with guns for almost 30 years now. The modern right wing terror movement is 30-40 years old and so loving little has been done to stop it yet being mad at the people who keep saying they will and can't somehow means you're in the wrong. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 01:35 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 00:45
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:until 1995 the house had a rule that the debt ceiling was just automatically raised by virtue of passing the budget (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 20, 2023 01:22
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cat botherer posted:It’s not a self-inflicted wound for the Republicans. It’s working out great for them! Too bad the dems didn’t get rid of it (or codify Roe) when they had the chance. I bet they feel pretty silly now! It is just yet another example of how ineffectual the dems are. They just let stuff happen even if doing so is going to cause serious problems. It was actually their lack of action on Roe that led me to abstain in 2022 and not vote for anybody. As for the whole debt ceiling crap, it is a big part of what turned me against the GOP back when they started weaponizing it during the Obama years. It is a very dangerous game to put the US at risk of default over petty politics. Naturally of course the chuds like Ted Cruz are completely hypocritical about this and didn't give a gently caress about spending when trump was in charge. I may not like the dems, but I detest the GOP.
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May 20, 2023 02:44
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:until 1995 the house had a rule that the debt ceiling was just automatically raised by virtue of passing the budget Oh that’s got Newt ‘Contract on America’ Gingrich’s fingerprints all over it . Yep, not surprised. Oracle fucked around with this message at 03:45 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 03:41
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Yureina posted:I may not like the dems, but I detest the GOP. I think a lot of people are in this camp, and the general feel for young-ish left-ish leaning people is summed up by "hey, every time the republicans do something the world gets worse" and "every time the dems are, nothing gets better." But I think fundamentally the problem isn't that republicans are evil and democrats are useless, those are just flavor. The problem is that wealth concentration is the same thing as power concentration, and we've reached a point where the wealthy have so much say in how everything plays out that there's very little to be done via voting. Both parties work to the same nebulous ends of corporate wealth and the even more nebulous "maximization of shareholder value," but they're both functionally serving a club you're not part of. So it's not that dems are short-cited and ineffectual at protecting rights, it's that they're not really there to do that. Democrats favor a system of economic prosperity that allows some level of safety net to function more as a cost-saving measure than any altruistic one. The reason they're so into things like work-requirements and means-testing is that their primary concern is one of economic growth largely based on the principles of Keynes. Stuff like "access to abortions" and "marriage equality" don't factor into their thinking much beyond potential branding and backlash. Typically this gives them the feel of being tepid towards progressive ideology and social issues, but in actuality it's just that those aren't of concern to them at all beyond optics -- so they don't really bother doing anything to stop rights from eroding until it becomes something that they can use to further push their economic agenda. Think pride month and pink-washing corporations; they don't really do anything, but they make money and make some people feel good. Republicans on the other hand favor economics based in the Chicago school of thought. Greed is good, rational choice theory, that kind of thing. Any kind of market manipulation that interferes with money doing as it will and people with money doing as they will results in less money for everyone. They also seem to have collected the social conservatives of the world because they are not agnostic towards progressive ideology as they see it as taking away from the fundamentals of money flowing freely from the rich to things that the rich want -- and also a huge percentage of them are hella bigoted, but even if they weren't, it's likely that they would from a structural standpoint still stand opposed to anything that could introduce change and chaos to the neoclassical model they operate from. tl;dr -- "dems bad" resonates because dems are bad at what people think they exist to do, and "GOP evil" because it actually is. e: Mooseontheloose posted:. I would definitely vote for anyone who ate donald trump on stage during a debate. Even if they just gnawed him a little. Ershalim fucked around with this message at 04:19 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 04:12
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I would absolutely vote for Avshalom if they followed through with [redacted]
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May 20, 2023 04:46
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Killer robot posted:One thing that threw me off hard back in 2016 was repeated polling that not only did she have more supporters than Bernie, but her support was by and large more enthusiastic. In retrospect I guess it's that Twitter isn't real life and most people weren't as surrounded by "she's unliked and unlikable" as me. Of course. My personal opinions have lead me astray. I’ve simply been tricked into not liking her as she rightfully deserves. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 20, 2023 07:21
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pencilhands posted:Of course. My personal opinions have lead me astray. I’ve simply been tricked into not liking her as she rightfully deserves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y2R01k4SXI We weren't booing her, we were saying Boollary
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May 20, 2023 07:26
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If anything it's the idea that Hillary was ever likeable which seems near inexplicable outside of a massive, literal decades-long media campaign. She's basically a nepotism case taken way too far and trying to push a political dynasty right when they absolutely had outstayed their welcome. And her campaign was beyond parody levels of entitlement and hubris from every angle; 'I'm With Her', 'It's Her Turn', 'America Is Already Great', literally pushing Trump because they assumed he'd be easy to beat... Like with a lot of that generation we're talking about, a lot gets brought up about how they're women, not so much about how they're all wealthy, white, and old. There's an overdue reckoning with how many of the women then pushed as pioneers clearly just want their turn to be in charge of the empire. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 07:34 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 07:32
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The Minnesota legislature just passed legal weed. Possession becomes legal on August 1, and it's expected to take about 18 months to set up the legal infrastructure before licensed sales can begin. The bill also automatically expunges nonviolent marijuana convictions, and removes them from criminal records. More details here: https://www.marijuanamoment.net/watch-live-minnesota-senate-to-vote-on-sending-marijuana-legalization-bill-to-governor/ Despite being popular (60-70% of Minnesotans approve legalization), not a single Republican senator voted for the bill.
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May 20, 2023 07:53
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ColdPie posted:The Minnesota legislature just passed legal weed. Possession becomes legal on August 1, and it's expected to take about 18 months to set up the legal infrastructure before licensed sales can begin. The bill also automatically expunges nonviolent marijuana convictions, and removes them from criminal records. Awesome
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May 20, 2023 07:55
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I’m guessing New Hampshire and Hawaii are are most likely next pickups. Who’s the third state that gets us to a majority?
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May 20, 2023 08:15
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Ghost Leviathan posted:If anything it's the idea that Hillary was ever likeable which seems near inexplicable outside of a massive, literal decades-long media campaign. She's basically a nepotism case taken way too far and trying to push a political dynasty right when they absolutely had outstayed their welcome. And her campaign was beyond parody levels of entitlement and hubris from every angle; 'I'm With Her', 'It's Her Turn', 'America Is Already Great', literally pushing Trump because they assumed he'd be easy to beat... I don't think it's too hard to see how she had a large core of support that liked her/was enthusiastic about her. Pretty much for all the reasons that the Right went on the warpath to villainize her. Remember that you mostly have to ignore the policy positions we hate, and rethink the reason that the Clinton machine is/was a terrifying juggernaut of functional quasi-competence most interested in loyalty. Just because the DLC sucks poo poo doesn't mean that we should ignore aspects of it's members that engendered support.
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May 20, 2023 08:50
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Gyges posted:I don't think it's too hard to see how she had a large core of support that liked her/was enthusiastic about her. Pretty much for all the reasons that the Right went on the warpath to villainize her. Though I'm not sure that helps given the continuing observations that actual Hillary loyalists, and their remaining extensions in the KHive, are some of the biggest freaks in American politics and that's no mean feat. It's closer to a bizarre cult of personality that I'm not surprised became a bubble protecting her from reality. Indeed, the right had a helluva campaign to villainise her, which makes perfect sense to do for someone very obviously intending to by the frontrunner down the road. But it wasn't exactly hard for them. Not only was her campaign seemingly making a point of going after exactly the people who had been radicalised the most specifically against her, but the feeling in 2016 was a lot of people still wondering why they were ever supposed to care about her.
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May 20, 2023 10:04
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Ershalim posted:I think a lot of people are in this camp, and the general feel for young-ish left-ish leaning people is summed up by "hey, every time the republicans do something the world gets worse" and "every time the dems are, nothing gets better." But I think fundamentally the problem isn't that republicans are evil and democrats are useless, those are just flavor. The problem is that wealth concentration is the same thing as power concentration, and we've reached a point where the wealthy have so much say in how everything plays out that there's very little to be done via voting. Both parties work to the same nebulous ends of corporate wealth and the even more nebulous "maximization of shareholder value," but they're both functionally serving a club you're not part of.
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May 20, 2023 12:07
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Cheesus posted:Despite only barely fathoming how devastating the consequences of it would be for me, my family, and everyone I know, there's a part of me that irrationally thinks a default would gently caress over this club too. Massive bipartisan effort would go into specifically and solely making sure that club is barely even briefly inconvenienced.
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May 20, 2023 12:20
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Seems like bailouts would be hard when the government explicitly can't spend on anything, but I'm sure they'd find a way.
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May 20, 2023 12:21
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Clarste posted:Seems like bailouts would be hard when the government explicitly can't spend on anything, but I'm sure they'd find a way. https://www.ssa.gov/history/InternetMyths.html posted:The Social Security Trust Fund has never been "put into the general fund of the government."
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May 20, 2023 12:34
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Cheesus posted:Despite only barely fathoming how devastating the consequences of it would be for me, my family, and everyone I know, there's a part of me that irrationally thinks a default would gently caress over this club too. And yet they all got richer during the pandemic when nobody would shut up about the economic catastrophe it was for business.
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May 20, 2023 13:48
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Tuxedo Gin posted:And yet they all got richer during the pandemic when nobody would shut up about the economic catastrophe it was for business. That's a lot of the problem. Almost our entire society, from the ground up, is designed to make the rich richer in all situations for all outcomes. Up or down, everything is built for them to be able to extract more wealth from the rest of society until everything redlines and detonates, leaving us all to pick through the rubble. ...which they'll probably still come out on top of in relative terms. That's just the only point at which they'll suffer along with everyone else because the entire system has blown up leaving them ruling over ashes while everyone else is trying to eat the ashes. They read about the collapse of the entire biosphere and start using their wealth to build themselves compounds to escape the problem, we just get to die.
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May 20, 2023 15:25
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Cheesus posted:Despite only barely fathoming how devastating the consequences of it would be for me, my family, and everyone I know, there's a part of me that irrationally thinks a default would gently caress over this club too. "gently caress over" is relative. Every time people tell about how much *rich person x* lost this or that much money in whatever economic catastrophe, they are still left with plenty to never have to work that hard for a living. Actual cases of someone having millions and losing it all almost always seems to involve some sort of mental illness or addiction issues.
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May 20, 2023 15:52
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Gyges posted:I don't think it's too hard to see how she had a large core of support that liked her/was enthusiastic about her. Pretty much for all the reasons that the Right went on the warpath to villainize her. The DLC sucks so much poo poo that I'd rather pay for horse armor.
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May 20, 2023 16:01
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I actually thought that the debt ceiling was a uniquely American institution, but apparently Denmark has one as well. That's...not true. Brazil implemented a debt ceiling law in 2016, after the neolibs couped labour president Dilma Roussef. It has been making GBS threads things up while the stock market claps ever since, and has also been broken when convenient for the conservative governments since. Now that Lula is back there is some talk of doing away with it, but it's still there.
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May 20, 2023 16:12
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