|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:If anything, the problem with the bill is that it clearly isn't really intended to do much practically, but is also written really broadly so that someone could abuse it if the FTC really wanted to just rack up a bunch of fines against a company they didn't like. It's bad and lazy lawmaking that leads to either: nothing changing or someone eventually pushing an extreme use case under it. Why, then, do you think the Brookings Institution piece was so adamant about needing to pass it on the federal level? To pre-empt state laws that would go farther?
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 20:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:56 |
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:You could also consider that they're not entirely unrelated because the pandemic isolation, with the closure of schools and other public places, meant teens were relying more heavily on social media for socialization and peer interaction than they were before. Yeah, I totally agree with this. Minors had only virtual interaction & socialization for at least the first year of the pandemic, unless their parents were wealthy enough to provide them with small-group learning or private schools.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 20:32
|
|
|
Schumer confirms that he has spoken to Lisa Blunt-Rochester following Tom Carper's retirement announcement. Even before this she seemed like the only likely choice, since Delaware literally does not have any other elected federal representative. She would be a definite improvement over Carper, but isn't a Bernie Sanders type or anything. She is a pretty generic Democrat on the left side of the party, but unlikely to be a huge public face. She would be the only female African-American Senator currently serving and she would be the third African-American female elected Senator in history. This would put female African-American Senators closer to overtaking the category of "members of Congress who have literally been in outer space," which currently sits at 5. Yes, there have been more than 125% as many people who have slipped from the bonds of earth and been elected to Congress as there are African-American women elected to the Senate in the entire history of the country. https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1660694547012231169 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:46 on May 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 20:34
|
|
|
Willa Rogers posted:Why, then, do you think the Brookings Institution piece was so adamant about needing to pass it on the federal level? To pre-empt state laws that would go farther? That is a guest commentary article from a Georgetown University philosophy professor. He is also describing a different bill (The Kids Online Safety Act) in that article. I don't think Brookings has made any claims that the Protecting Kids on Social Media Act will have a major impact. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:44 on May 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 20:41
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That is a guest commentary article from a Georgetown University philosophy professor. He is also describing a different bill (The Kids Online Safety Act) in that article. The author mentions both bills: "In addition to the revised KOSA bill, Congress also has before it the Protecting Kids on Social Media Act, a bipartisan bill that would ban children under 13 from having an account at a social media firm and would require parental consent for kids 13 to 17[...]." and then goes on to advocate a blending of both, as I read it, but one that doesn't require parental approval.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 21:03
|
|
|
Oracle posted:I strongly suspect the 24/7 aspect also greatly disturbs kids sleep schedules which has also been proven to increase negative health and behavioral outcomes especially for teens who need more sleep than even younger kids. That’s on top of the lack of sleep todays schools inculcate with the amount of homework they give anymore. I have some younger relatives that are definitely effected by social media in this way, it sucks. 
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 23:01
|
|
|
Speaking of homework and sleep, there's no real evidence that homework does much of anything.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 23:22
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Speaking of homework and sleep, there's no real evidence that homework does much of anything. This is an extremely broad claim, why do you think this?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 23:36
|
|
|
Practicing languages and math is the only way to gain competence. I guess school could provide the practice in class.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 23:40
|
|
|
Homework as most people think of it isn't really all that useful in terms of reinforcing learned material. Rote repetition of things is functionally useless in forming long term memory. Stuff like SRS is better at inducing memory, but short of synthesis of old material with new material in action (like, using what you learned to observe/cause/create), you run into a situation where you understand "what" but not "why" and so the affective meaning of a lot of what you learn that way is lost very quickly after being acquired and tested. For math and language, as Grando mentioned, practicing them is vital for them to be maintained -- but homework usually isn't that. To practice a language you'd need to use it -- like, talking or conversing via text to someone in real time. Doing verb conjugations or writing kanji 30 times in a row like you would for a lot of classes isn't going to get you much of anywhere. Math has a similar problem in that when it's not applied to anything, it is generally discarded by the brain as like, manual labor; people feel tired after doing a lot of math, but rarely accomplished. I imagine that's why so many people say they don't like math. As taught, there's not much to like about it. It's not until you get into hypothetical things like how a finite amount of paint can paint an infinite area, or engineering where it stops being just "how do you solve this fundamentally meaningless variable in this arbitrary question?"
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 23:51
|
|
|
Kalit posted:This is an extremely broad claim, why do you think this? https://www.edutopia.org/no-proven-benefits https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/11/12/should-parents-help-their-children-with-homework/dont-bother-homework-is-pointless https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/08/homework-who-needs-it/497966/ https://learnfromblogs.com/is-homework-necessary-or-a-pointless-waste-of-time https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/23584497/remote-school-homework-elimination-movement I didn't read all of those links completely, but that should get you started. Or ask your local friendly educator.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 23:58
|
|
|
At the college level (maybe K-12 also, IDK), I've heard so much about "flipped classes." The jist is that one-way information flow lectures are a poor use of in-person class time, given that things like video and writing exist. So, students watch lectures and/or read outside of class, and work on homework (er, classwork) in class. From what I've heard from various people, it is empirically pretty well-supported (as education research goes  ).
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2023 23:59
|
|
|
From what I understand/from my limited experience, homework doesn’t seem to be “a thing” in German universities and maybe even well before then, at least for the maths and sciences and engineering. It is not uncommon to have an entire semester of a class without ever having to do homework, and then going in to do a final exam and having your entire semester’s score being entirely made from that exam. Now of course a lot of professors will “suggest” problem sets but they’re like, not gonna grade you for them or anything. E: I’m told German engineering is super good so they must be doing something right. I dunno. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 00:05 on May 23, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:02
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:At the college level (maybe K-12 also, IDK), I've heard so much about "flipped classes." The jist is that one-way information flow lectures are a poor use of in-person class time, given that things like video and writing exist. So, students watch lectures and/or read outside of class, and work on homework (er, classwork) in class. From what I've heard from various people, it is empirically pretty well-supported (as education research goes K-12 has seen the flipped classroom model too. It makes sense, especially with how easy it is to record lectures these days. Students can do the reading on their own, the lecture to synthesize the reading used to make sense of it can be recorded and you no longer have the logistics problem that used to require lectures to be in person, so that leaves the applied learning and that then makes more sense as the part of the process which really benefits from in-person.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
Boris Galerkin posted:From what I understand/from my limited experience, homework doesn’t seem to be “a thing” in German universities and maybe even well before then, at least for the maths and sciences and engineering. It is not uncommon to have an entire semester of a class without ever having to do homework, and then going in to do a final exam and having your entire semester’s score being entirely made from that exam.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:I'm not surprised that you understand the value of giving students a well-thought-out finite volume of work. 
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:12
|
|
|
Watching a lecture at home would still be homework for a kid and take up there time at home. But it does make sense that they do the actual application of a concept with a teacher around to help them. It's like the joke about parents not being able to help with math homework was finally taken seriously.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:15
|
|
|
I actually got the finite volume and finite element guy confused there, but I guess that post was Godunov.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:18
|
|
|
It's a lot to expect kids to pay attention as a full time job and then expect them to also focus for a couple hours when they get home.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:22
|
|
|
gurragadon posted:Watching a lecture at home would still be homework for a kid and take up there time at home. But it does make sense that they do the actual application of a concept with a teacher around to help them. It's like the joke about parents not being able to help with math homework was finally taken seriously. My daughter had a math class like this. Recorded lectures for homework, math work at school. Really, only math, reading and writing make any sense as homework. Those are all things that improve with practice. Work sheets, art projects, mother loving "team projects" all should be done in school.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:23
|
|
|
I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask kids to not only watch educational videos at home but also to pay attention to them enough to learn the concepts before going to school to review.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:29
|
|
|
Group projects outside of class time are 100% trash. The only thing they taught me was contempt for authority.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:29
|
|
|
I have only personal experience from years ago when I was in highschool, but I think time should be provided in the school day for out of classroom work. While I'm wishing breakfast should be provided before classes start and all in school meals should be free because kids shouldn't have to think about how/whether they're going to get their next meal and learning is much harder when you're hungry.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:33
|
|
|
Boris Galerkin posted:I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask kids to not only watch educational videos at home but also to pay attention to them enough to learn the concepts before going to school to review. I could see a compromise for high schools students as being like what I did for freshman. Just a quick review to get some people up to speed, and then everyone working after that.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:39
|
|
|
Homework in the flipped system doesn't need to be onerous, though. Just "hey, take 10 minutes when you can to read these pages, and jot some notes, so when we discuss it as a class you'll have a baseline understanding of what's going on and you can ask interesting, helpful questions if you don't understand part of it." That's a big difference from "do 20-30 questions for practice."Boris Galerkin posted:Now of course a lot of professors will “suggest” problem sets but they’re like, not gonna grade you for them or anything. That's how it was in Canadian university too. "Here are some practice questions. Use them to evaluate your own understanding of the material and then form coherent questions to ask in office hours, instead of sucking the oxygen out of my office with vague questions like 'I don't get it.'" EDIT: I really doubt there's a switch that flips upon high school graduation that makes people uniquely able to handle this sort of responsibility and self-direction; rather, I think the first "experience" with it is going to be rocky at any age, but I think it could realistically be introduced in an age-appropriate way much earlier. PT6A fucked around with this message at 00:43 on May 23, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:41
|
|
|
I AM GRANDO posted:Group projects outside of class time are 100% trash. The only thing they taught me was contempt for authority. I learned more contempt for my fellow students than authority in group projects.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:46
|
|
|
They said group projects were preparation for real life, but in real life if I have a consistent problem with a loving moron that I'm working with, the boss will do something about said moron. Either that or, if someone is unproductive due to work-balance issues, it all balances out eventually.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 00:52
|
|
|
PT6A posted:They said group projects were preparation for real life, but in real life if I have a consistent problem with a loving moron that I'm working with, the boss will do something about said moron. What if the moron is the boss' nephew?
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 01:01
|
|
|
Nissin Cup Nudist posted:What if the moron is the boss' nephew? Then the boss knows he's a moron and will not expect him to do any work in the first place, so you're being assigned a task your boss thinks you can handle on your own.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 01:03
|
|
|
Ershalim posted:It's not until you get into hypothetical things like how a finite amount of paint can paint an infinite area, or engineering where it stops being just "how do you solve this fundamentally meaningless variable in this arbitrary question?" Thank you for wording this this way because it made it really click just now how I completely despised and failed every single math related thing I ever did in every single school setting ever and am a loving moron on paper mainly for this reason, I could never get past that mental block of like why even is this poo poo. But then as an adult in my job and hobbies stuff going backwards from "how do I figure out this thing" to working out the math for it is extremely good and satisfying. Group projects suck poo poo in the moment for all the reasons mentioned but they get you used to real life very effectively because you can better see little red flags of when you need to leave a situation or job or circle of people.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 01:04
|
|
|
Neo Rasa posted:Thank you for wording this this way because it made it really click just now how I completely despised and failed every single math related thing I ever did in every single school setting ever and am a loving moron on paper mainly for this reason, I could never get past that mental block of like why even is this poo poo. But then as an adult in my job and hobbies stuff going backwards from "how do I figure out this thing" to working out the math for it is extremely good and satisfying. The really funny thing is that they're increasingly trying to move in this direction but then hordes of stupid, stupid, gently caress-ignorant parents bleat that "oh they're not learning math the way I learned math! This new woke math is the end of society!"
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 01:06
|
|
|
Adenoid Dan posted:I have only personal experience from years ago when I was in highschool, but I think time should be provided in the school day for out of classroom work. Well if we’re talking about changing the way education works, the whole “breakfast should be provided before classes start” thing is also another issue that needs to be addressed. There’s been a lot of words written about why it makes no sense that American students start school so drat early, other than the usual stuff about working parents.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 01:06
|
|
|
My suspicion, from my time as a TA / tutor, is that grading itself has an incredibly perverse effect on education. By its very nature, changes the goal of students from "learn the material" to "get a good grade", and that encourages all sorts of unhealthy behaviors. Additionally, getting a bad grade often will convince people that they are fundamentally incapable of something (or, in some circumstances, will actively block someone from continuing in a subject). Not understanding something should not be seen as a personal failure, and the correct response to it should be to spend more time reinforcing that thing in a shame-free environment. I'm curious to hear what full-time educators in this thread think about the above -- does that reflect your experience as well?
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 01:18
|
|
|
VikingofRock posted:My suspicion, from my time as a TA / tutor, is that grading itself has an incredibly perverse effect on education. By its very nature, changes the goal of students from "learn the material" to "get a good grade", and that encourages all sorts of unhealthy behaviors. Additionally, getting a bad grade often will convince people that they are fundamentally incapable of something (or, in some circumstances, will actively block someone from continuing in a subject). Not understanding something should not be seen as a personal failure, and the correct response to it should be to spend more time reinforcing that thing in a shame-free environment. Also, you're in school from say 8:00 to 3:00, so seven hours and then do what? An extra four hours of work?
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 01:36
|
|
|
Did I miss this coming up? Anyway, I don't know if this deal that the Biden Administration managed to help put together is too little too late, but at least there's an agreement. https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1660741267867705344
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 02:14
|
|
|
VikingofRock posted:My suspicion, from my time as a TA / tutor, is that grading itself has an incredibly perverse effect on education. By its very nature, changes the goal of students from "learn the material" to "get a good grade", and that encourages all sorts of unhealthy behaviors. Additionally, getting a bad grade often will convince people that they are fundamentally incapable of something (or, in some circumstances, will actively block someone from continuing in a subject). Not understanding something should not be seen as a personal failure, and the correct response to it should be to spend more time reinforcing that thing in a shame-free environment. There are some subjects that I simply haven't been interested in at all ever since I was a kid, even before I got bad or mediocre grades to tell me that I'm not good at them. No shame-free environment in the world will change that. I'm not seeing this as a personal failure, but as lack of interest in the context of not being able to be interested at everything to the same degree. I don't have a problem with consistently bad grades telling people something isn't for them. There needs to be a systematic way to tell people that their prospects at something aren't good and to focus their limited resources on something else. If learning and understanding the material does not lead to a good grade, then it's certainly a problem with how a course is set up, but not with the overall idea of focusing.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 02:31
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:Also, you're in school from say 8:00 to 3:00, so seven hours and then do what? An extra four hours of work? Seriously, kids get lovely sleep because otherwise if they're doing everything expected of them from schooling, they've got like, maybe three or four hours to themselves? Which isn't really to themselves because of responsibilities they surely have to their parents as well. So ofc you stay up late and get up early. High school was the worst sleep I ever had by far, worse than college, which is saying a lot because I had multiple semesters with 12-4 am shifts working for our campus safety dept
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 02:32
|
|
|
Among many other extremely valid problems, my personal biggest frustration with middle/high school is the scheduling. For seven years I was a loving zombie, day in and day out, because I had to wake up at the rear end crack of dawn and go sit in a desk then get yelled at and singled out if I feel asleep. gently caress that entire thing it ruined my sleep for years and I'm not convinced I ever completely recovered from it.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 02:37
|
|
|
They finally passed a bill here in FL to make school start times later for Middle/High schools, but it doesn't fully go into effect for like 3-4 years
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 02:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:56 |
|
|
VikingofRock posted:My suspicion, from my time as a TA / tutor, is that grading itself has an incredibly perverse effect on education. By its very nature, changes the goal of students from "learn the material" to "get a good grade", and that encourages all sorts of unhealthy behaviors. Additionally, getting a bad grade often will convince people that they are fundamentally incapable of something (or, in some circumstances, will actively block someone from continuing in a subject). Not understanding something should not be seen as a personal failure, and the correct response to it should be to spend more time reinforcing that thing in a shame-free environment. I'm not a school teacher per se, but comparing the general environment to what I do as a flight instructor and how I've been trained to do it, I'd generalize it a little bit further and say that K-12 school in general, and the average public school specifically, misses out on a few key learning factors we're told to consider when planning lessons (many of which are screwed up at a structural level; I'm not sure they can be solved). 1) Readiness. Is the student prepared for the lesson and motivated to learn from it? The school system fails in a number of ways. There's no guarantee that a student has the pre-requisite knowledge required, and if core concepts have been missed earlier on, it's really hard to catch up in a classroom setting. Students aren't ready to learn if they're hungry or stressed out. That's not the school's fault, that's the unfortunate reality for a huge chunk of kids living in this society. We lack the will to fix it; we could be doing much better on this point. Are students motivated? I think you hit on it in your post: students are motivated to get a good grade, not to master the material. That doesn't lead to good learning outcomes unless you care deeply about grades in and of themselves, and I humbly suggest that only a few weirdos really do. Ideally, there should be a sentence in the lesson plan that goes something along the lines of "X is important because learning about it will allow you to do Y" where Y is desirable thing to want to do. You get that -- bingo, your students are motivated to learn the material, even if they don't give a gently caress about the material itself. When kids ask "but when are we gonna uuuuuuse this???" you better have a decent loving answer. If you don't, then arguably it doesn't need to be taught, and it doesn't need to be learned. And for what it's worth, I've used every bit of math I learned in high school and university, across two careers that strike people as "cool". If you can't find an adequate justification for teaching something, you aren't looking hard enough. 2) Exercise. This is the idea behind homework -- you need to actually practice the thing you're learning to improve at it; however, homework is a poor form of practice because by definition you're getting minimal guidance as you're doing it. It turns into a grade at the end, and the grading process might seem quite abstract and disconnected from the actual goal of learning this thing. Ideally, you want guided, effective practice where questions can be asked and mistakes can be corrected as they happen, or else you're probably wasting time on useless nonsense, at least until you reach a certain degree of proficiency that allows you to evaluate your own performance. 3) Effect. Do you feel a sense of accomplishment throughout the learning process? This is where grading in general, and homework specifically, are absolute poo poo. The only reinforcement you get through the process is a number or a letter attached to "how well you did" at the end, often quite a long time after you've done the work itself. If it's a good number/letter, then you feel good. If it's a bad number/letter, you feel bad and you attach a negative feeling to the entire thing you're learning, arguably when you need the most support to continue on. It's horrid! I'm not going to claim I have any idea how to solve these problems, and I think some of them are very resistant to being solved within the confines of traditional K-12 education, but that's where I see the problems existing from my point of view.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2023 02:39
|
|